# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 286
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5703 "2012-10-04T15:33:06Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > The charges imply that Zimmerman did not shoot Trayvon in an attempt to defend himself. It implies a “depraved mind”. It excludes the idea that he was acting in self-defense. I’d like to hear why Betenoire (or preferably the prosecution) believes that Zimmerman pulled the trigger? > > If the prosecution was not alleging that Zimmerman intended to kill Trayvon Martin, they would have charged him with manslaughter. I think their charge of murder _does_ imply the intention on Zimmerman’s part to kill (or at least do great bodily harm.) Correct – and not merely “implies;” the charges _require proof_ of the “depraved mind.” But remember that “depraved mind” is a term of legal art. > [@](#): > > An act is imminently dangerous to another and evinces a “depraved mind” if it is an act or series of acts that: (1) a person of ordinary judgment would know is reasonably certain to kill or do serious bodily injury to another; (2) is done from ill will, hatred, spite or an evil intent; and (3) is of such a nature that the act itself indicates an indifference to human life. (Quoting Fla. Standard Jury Instruction (Criminal) 7.4.) _Ellison v State_ gives a pretty good laundry list of different circumstances which support the finding of ill will, hatred, spite, or evil intent: > [@](#): > > Second-degree murder convictions have consistently been affirmed when the unintended death resulted from intentional actions toward or directed at a particular victim out of ill will, spite or malice. See Gordon v. State, 457 So.2d 1095 (Fla. 5th DCA 1984) (defendant who caused accident while intoxicated deliberately ran over another driver who attempted to block defendant’s flight from the scene); Larsen v. State, 485 So.2d 1372 (Fla. 1st DCA 1986) (defendant struck partially disabled wife during argument, causing her to fall and fracture her skull); Dellinger v. State, 495 So.2d 197 (Fla. 5th DCA 1986) (defendant picked up a gun and pointed it at his wife during an argument and pulled the trigger without knowing whether or not it was loaded); Hooker v. State, 497 So.2d 982 (Fla. 2d DCA 1986) (defendant shot into a trailer which he believed to be occupied by migrant workers after going on a “mission” to rid the community of such workers); Reimel v. State, 532 So.2d 16 (Fla. 5th DCA 1988) (defendant shot victim who had hit him during an argument, when defendant was at the time seated in a running car with a clear path of flight). So presumably the prosecution feels that the totality of the circumstances can be shown to be close to some of the ones above, in which second degree murder was upheld. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5704 "2012-10-04T16:20:18Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > Broken nose, bloody head, the screaming, the witness accounts. Again, his nose was never diagnosed as broken. Repeatedly stating he had a broken nose doesn’t make it so. Do you think the only way one can sustain a bloody head is by being attacked unprovoked? Is it possible, in your world, to ever become injured in the process of attacking someone else? What evidence is there that Zimmerman screamed, besides his mere say so? What witnesses attributed that voice to him? What experts have listened to that tape and have either said that was his voice or ruled out Martin’s? No witness saw the fight in its entirety, so I’m not sure why you think they provide any evidence that Martin deserved to be shot. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5705 "2012-10-04T16:55:50Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Again, his nose was never diagnosed as broken. Repeatedly stating he had a broken nose doesn’t make it so. > [@](#): > > Court records show George Zimmerman was treated for a broken nose and cuts after the fatal shooting of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, CBS News has confirmed. [Cite](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57435240-504083/trayvon-martin-shooting-george-zimmerman-suffered-two-black-eyes-broken-nose-court-documents-say/). > [@](#): > > What evidence is there that Zimmerman screamed, besides his mere say so? > [@](#): > > The witness reportedly said that “The guy on the bottom who had a red sweater on was yelling to me: ‘help, help…and I told him to stop and I was calling 911.” Martin was wearing a hoodie that night and Zimmerman was wearing a red shirt or sweater.. [Cite](http://jonathanturley.org/2012/03/26/witness-martin-was-on-top-of-zimmerman-before-fatal-shot/). Plus, it has been explained to you in the past that people who are winning a fight do not usually scream for help. The fact that Martin was winning the fight is demonstrated by the physical evidence of the injuries to Zimmerman and lack of injury (apart from the mark on his knuckle) to Martin. **betenoire39** - are you going to produce cites for your claims, as you said you would? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5706 "2012-10-04T17:04:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Again, let me clear the waters a bit. > > Zimmerman is charged with second degree murder. In Florida, this charge does not require an intent to kill on the part of the accused. So when **Betenoire** suggests that Zimmerman murdered Martin, you ( **emeraldia** ) seem to suggest that there must have been some reason that Zimmerman wanted Martin dead, and are asking **betenoire** to provide it. > > But the charge merely alleges (inter alia) that Zimmerman killed Martin, not that Zimmerman _intended_ to kill Martin. Thank you again, Bricker. I missed this. It’s this sort of fallacious reasoning that really ticks me off, yet these people are convinced their reasoning is sound (😕). Is it really necessary to offer a motive for why some psycho decides to push someone in front of a moving train or why someone decided to rape a woman? Are we to forget the ACTION itself? It’s like they’re saying that if I am unable to come up with a REASON WHY the defendant committed the act, he must be innocent (WTF???). This is simply mind-boggling. I am really getting lost. **you in the face,** I am with you. But I really think this has to do with thinking styles…linear thinking. Again this is the template: Zimmerman was hurt, therefore Martin did x, y and z (also WHEN Zimmerman said he did). No deviation from this. None (even though they THEMSELVES can’t prove this definitively). If you have no evidence refuting this, then it’s true (beautiful reasoning lol). Even when you provide a PLAUSIBLE counter, you’re a nut or they find the most asinine excuse to dismiss it (like the comment I wrote about the blood). A few posters are committing the most egregious logical fallacies, get called out on it, and just throw out more red herrings rather than take another look at their arguments. It’s frustrating indeed. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5707 "2012-10-04T17:08:15Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > [Cite](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57435240-504083/trayvon-martin-shooting-george-zimmerman-suffered-two-black-eyes-broken-nose-court-documents-say/). > > [Cite](http://jonathanturley.org/2012/03/26/witness-martin-was-on-top-of-zimmerman-before-fatal-shot/). > > Plus, it has been explained to you in the past that people who are winning a fight do not usually scream for help. The fact that Martin was winning the fight is demonstrated by the physical evidence of the injuries to Zimmerman and lack of injury (apart from the mark on his knuckle) to Martin. > > **betenoire39** - are you going to produce cites for your claims, as you said you would? > > Regards, > Shodan **Shodan** , I am looking through the police interviews to give an exact location where he said he was either hit by concrete or a **SIGN**. Yes, Zimmerman said that. It is over an hour long. I am also combing through some medical opinions (of medical professionals) about what they thought about the head injury. Please be patient. Thank you Shodan. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5708 "2012-10-04T17:26:49Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] Plus, it has been explained to you in the past that people who are winning a fight do not usually scream for help. The fact that Martin was winning the fight… [/quote] You have a different definition for “winning” than I do. Only one person walked away from that fight, and it wasn’t Martin. “Jon” has since recounted his initial claims about what he saw that night. He admits he doesn’t know for sure who was yelling for help. So that’s a bust for your side. As for the broken nose, show me Zimmerman’s medical report that shows he was actually diagnosed with such. A CBS article is nice and all, but the media is notorious for misrepresenting medical information. You need to go to the source document to prove that a qualified medical professional definitively diagnosed him with a broken nose. You won’t find it because Zimmerman conveniently neglected to follow up with a specialist. He didn’t even go to the ER. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5709 "2012-10-04T17:41:50Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > You have a different definition for “winning” than I do. Only one person walked away from that fight, and it wasn’t Martin. I actually wanted to laugh, but given the gravity and sadness, I didn’t. If the body wasn’t where it was, Zimmerman had the appropriate injuries, and Martin had the physical evidence ON him (blood for instance) I just may have believed him. I’ll bring this up again, but the things that could have definitively swung my opinion in Zimmerman’s favor seem to be missing. How convenient… The very things that could have VERIFIED DEFINITIVELY Zimmerman’s story seem to be clouded in “I don’t remember” or “the doctor was too expensive” or multiple stories of BS. Yet these people keep going…why? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5710 "2012-10-04T17:48:32Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > No there isn’t. So those pictures of someone with a bloody nose, two black eyes, and lacerations to the front and back of his head, who are they? They 're claimed to be Zimmerman, and they look an awful lot like him. I’ll assume you honestly forgot about them, because the other option is that you’re lying or delusional. Given that you now remember those pictures, which agree with the police and medical reports of his injuries, why are you claiming they weren’t given to him by the person who was seen beating him? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5711 "2012-10-04T18:06:20Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > So those pictures of someone with a bloody nose, two black eyes, and lacerations to the front and back of his head, who are they? Please keep up. You said there is photographic evidence of _bruising_. But there isn’t. Find me one picture of Zimmerman that clearly shows him with black eyes. You will not find it because none exist. To see a close-up shot of him the day after the shooting, click this link: [http://cfnews13.com/content/dam/news/images/2012/06/george-zimmerman-re-enactment-4-0621.jpg](http://cfnews13.com/content/dam/news/images/2012/06/george-zimmerman-re-enactment-4-0621.jpg) Here’s his photo shortly after the shooting: [![](https://i.insider.com/4fb575b1ecad04c70c000015) ](https://i.insider.com/4fb575b1ecad04c70c000015) No bruises anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5712 "2012-10-04T18:51:41Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > “Jon” has since recounted his initial claims about what he saw that night. He admits he doesn’t know for sure who was yelling for help. So that’s a bust for your side. If you were actually going to read “John’s” statement for content, you would notice that he says exactly what every rational person knew already - that people who are winning a fight do not generally scream for help. > [@](#): > > “At first, I thought it was the person on the ground, just because, you know, me thinking rationally, if someone was on top, the person on the bottom would be yelling,” he said… > > The black guy was on top," he told FDLE Investigator John Batchelor. “The guy that was on the ground, under him at that point, wrestling, was definitely a lighter color.” > > It was dark outside, he said, and at first, he thought he was witnessing a dogfight. When he stepped to the door, he realized it was two people on the ground wrestling. > > The person on top was either hitting or pinning the other to the ground, he said. The person on the bottom was struggling to get up. [Cite](http://globalgrind.com/news/key-zimmerman-witness-retracts-statement-im-no-longer-sure-he-was-crying-help-details#ixzz28MEB1e1M). > [@](#): > > As for the broken nose, show me Zimmerman’s medical report that shows he was actually diagnosed with such. _:shrugs:_ You don’t believe the media, you don’t believe court records, you won’t believe medical records either. There it is, it’s been proven, if you want to tell yourself fairy tales, worse luck for you. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5713 "2012-10-04T18:53:45Z")
**you in the face:** He said there was PICTURE EVIDENCE of BRUISING. You disproved him, quite clearly. **He then forgets that his argument** was about picture evidence of bruising and changes the subject, asking you about a bloody nose, two black eyes, and lacerations . Red herring here, strawman there combined with a false dilemma (or two or three). And they expect you to take their bait. Wow. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5714 "2012-10-04T18:55:57Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > No there isn’t. [http://theydontfoolme.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/iw4sbq-300x199.jpg](http://theydontfoolme.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/iw4sbq-300x199.jpg) [http://i.cdn.turner.com/dr/teg/tsg/release/sites/default/files/assets/zimmerman42.jpg](http://i.cdn.turner.com/dr/teg/tsg/release/sites/default/files/assets/zimmerman42.jpg) [![](http://knightnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/zimmerman-nose-injury-300x199.jpg) ](http://knightnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/zimmerman-nose-injury-300x199.jpg) yet nothing on Martin. Wow, Zimmerman managed to self-inflict quite a lot of damage, wouldn’t you say? ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5715 "2012-10-04T18:58:24Z")
Question for anyone: So Martin “was on top” at some point. Let’s accept that. I will accept that. What are the larger implications then? Are we to conclude that since Martin “was on top”, that therefore Zimmerman is not guilty? Please enlighten me. Please contextualize and tell me what the legal implications of Martin “being on top” are. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5716 "2012-10-04T19:04:26Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Again, his nose was never diagnosed as broken. Repeatedly stating he had a broken nose doesn’t make it so. [http://i.cdn.turner.com/dr/teg/tsg/release/sites/default/files/assets/zimmerman42.jpg](http://i.cdn.turner.com/dr/teg/tsg/release/sites/default/files/assets/zimmerman42.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5717 "2012-10-04T19:06:28Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Yet these people keep going…why? Still waiting for those cites. And by the way, if you are going to produce a cite of Zimmerman claiming he hit his head on a sign, that is not what you claimed you would produce. If you are not going to believe anything just because Zimmerman said so, you are not going to assert anything just because Zimmerman said so. I believe Martin punched Zimmerman in the face, not simply because Zimmerman said so, but because there is physical evidence and independent corroboration that he did so. You have claimed that Zimmerman hit his head on a dog sign, or on a sprinkler box. Show me the DNA on the dog sign, or the box, since you are so easily convinced that something didn’t happen because of the absence of DNA. You have suggested that Zimmerman threw Martin to the ground. Please produce evidence that this is what happened. You have suggested that Zimmerman did not act alone. Please produce one single, solitary scrap of evidence that this is the case. DNA from someone else. A witness who saw someone else. A plausible explanation as to how someone could make a clean getaway during the two minutes or so from the end of the phone call to the time the police arrived at the scene. What did this mysterious someone do - beam himself back up to the Mother Ship? And of course, if you can’t come up with any positive evidence in favor of your theories, an explanation would be useful as to why you disbelieve things that have evidence in their favor, and accept things that have none. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5718 "2012-10-04T19:13:39Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > **you in the face:** > > He said there was PICTURE EVIDENCE of BRUISING. You disproved him, quite clearly. > > **He then forgets that his argument** was about picture evidence of bruising and changes the subject, asking you about a bloody nose, two black eyes, and lacerations . > > Red herring here, strawman there combined with a false dilemma (or two or three). > > And they expect you to take their bait. > > Wow. Well, now, here I have to point out that a black eye is, in fact, a bruise. A bruise is simply a hematoma caused by internal bleeding into interstitial tissue. A black eye is a bruise. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5719 "2012-10-04T19:17:51Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Question for anyone: > > So Martin “was on top” at some point. Let’s accept that. I will accept that. > > What are the larger implications then? > > Are we to conclude that since Martin “was on top”, that therefore Zimmerman is not guilty? > > Please enlighten me. > > Please contextualize and tell me what the legal implications of Martin “being on top” are. No, although there is at least some legal significance to Martin being on top of Zimmerman. At trial, evidence is relevant if it has some tendency to assist the finder of fact – the jury – to determine an issue of fact that is in dispute. In this trial, we can say with some confidence that one issue of ultimate fact to be determined by the jury is whether or not Zimmerman was engaged in self-defense. If the jury believes that Martin was on top of Zimmerman, it makes it more likely – though by no means a certainty – that the jury would find that Zimmerman was engaging in self-defense. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5720 "2012-10-04T19:18:10Z")
[http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/zimmerman\_bond\_hearing\_exhibits/george\_zimmerman\_medical\_report.pdf](http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/zimmerman_bond_hearing_exhibits/george_zimmerman_medical_report.pdf) Diagnosis: Nasal bones, closed fracture ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5721 "2012-10-04T19:30:16Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > [http://theydontfoolme.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/iw4sbq-300x199.jpg](http://theydontfoolme.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/iw4sbq-300x199.jpg) > > [http://i.cdn.turner.com/dr/teg/tsg/release/sites/default/files/assets/zimmerman42.jpg](http://i.cdn.turner.com/dr/teg/tsg/release/sites/default/files/assets/zimmerman42.jpg) > > [http://knightnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/zimmerman-nose-injury-300x199.jpg](http://knightnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/zimmerman-nose-injury-300x199.jpg) > > yet nothing on Martin. Wow, Zimmerman managed to self-inflict quite a lot of damage, wouldn’t you say? Where are the pictures of bruising? Where is the _actual medical report_ that shows a diagnosis of a broken nose? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2012, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/5722 "2012-10-04T19:35:45Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Please contextualize and tell me what the legal implications of Martin “being on top” are. That, and the lacerations on the back of Zimmerman’s head, are evidence that Zimmerman’s account, where he says Martin was on top of him bashing his head on the ground, is true. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=285) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=287)