# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/561 "2012-04-22T20:12:01Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > I’m going to ignore the absurd appeal to racism, especially since I referred to all 17 year old males. > > What do you call high school sports teams? Boys and girls. You don’t have any problem to walking up to a group of teenage black male basketball players and saying, “You boys are playing well.”. You don’t think they might be offended? ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/562 "2012-04-22T20:20:27Z")
> [@enomaj](#): > > Well, **Joel Upchurch** , I don’t know about placing a holster behind you instead of in front which is what I assumed. He was pinned so no rollling if we are to believe Zimmerman’s surrogates. Plus the brother says there was a struggle for the gun after Trayvon spotted it. I don’t know how that happens if the holster is not in the front. > > What I don’t understand is that all Zimmerman did was yell for help and scooch onto the grass before deciding to kill Trayvon. No punches thrown, no trying to escape the pin. I know the weight advantage has shrunk to 20 lbs. but damn. The initial report of 250 lbs. turned out to be wrong, but 170 seems too light. A Zimmerman family member said he weighed around 190 at the time of the incident: [http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-02/news/os-trayvon-martin-qa3-20120402\_1\_civil-rights-gated-community-robert-zimmerman](http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-02/news/os-trayvon-martin-qa3-20120402_1_civil-rights-gated-community-robert-zimmerman) My guess is the man shown in the police video weighed at least 200 lbs. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/563 "2012-04-22T20:21:28Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > You don’t have any problem to walking up to a group of teenage black male basketball players and saying, “You boys are playing well.”. You don’t think they might be offended? No, that’s ridiculous. Observe: [A boys’ basketball team](http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/schools/blakehs/athletics/archives/2006_2007/winter/boysbasketball.htm). Such ignomy! ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/564 "2012-04-22T20:25:41Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > You don’t have any problem to walking up to a group of teenage black male basketball players and saying, “You boys are playing well.”. You don’t think they might be offended? not in the slightest. Really, this is ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/565 "2012-04-22T20:27:04Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > You don’t have any problem to walking up to a group of teenage black male basketball players and saying, “You boys are playing well.”. You don’t think they might be offended? 17 year old males are boys. They are not men. I never said anything about callling anyone boy. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/566 "2012-04-22T20:28:03Z")
> [@sugaree](#): > > No. That’s a silly idea. > > But may I say that I recently had a conversation with two African-American high-school girls, and they were talking about boys. And when black people talk to each other they will use terms that will be offensive if a white person uses them . Explain to me exactly why it is different to use a term behind their back that you won’t use to their face? ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/567 "2012-04-22T20:36:57Z")
For the record, Trayvon Martin turned 17 three weeks before he was murdered. ---
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/568 "2012-04-22T20:44:27Z")
Did he kiss Elaine Benes? ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/569 "2012-04-22T20:49:12Z")
> [@sugaree](#): > > Trayvon’s age here plays greatly into the picture, because 17-year-olds do dumb things. Like wander around in the rain, because it’s a much more private way to talk to your girlfriend then back at the house with the 13-year-old nebbing around. But at 28, Zimmerman, with his experience with security work and his educational background in criminal justice, should have been smarter than Martin. He should have been in control of the situation. And you are assuming that Trayvon was going to stop doing stupid things in 11 months when turned 18? You are assuming that that Trayvon had no responsibility for his actions. Even teenagers are supposed to know the difference between right and wrong and know that you aren’t supposed to go around punching people out. The is why we have to option of trying teenagers as adults. I suspect Trayvon knew exactly why Martin was eyeing him and it pissed him off. “Why are you following me?” is not something you say to somebody you think is a mugger. When Zimmerman didn’t flash a badge, then Martin punched him. ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/570 "2012-04-22T20:54:02Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > And when black people talk to each other they will use terms that will be offensive if a white person uses them . Explain to me exactly why it is different to use a term behind their back that you won’t use to their face? Because it is. I do not go up to strange teenagers and strike up conversations out of the blue. By mutual consent. Occasionally, I have cause to say something, such as “Watch out for that patch of vomit” or “Do you know whose baby this is?” or “Whoa, that’s a large snake!”\* In this case, adding the term Boy doesn’t make any more sense than adding the term Woman or Man or Man Dressed Poorly in Woman’s Clothing Who Really Isn’t Putting in the Effort to be a Transsexual. Jeez, I don’t even say boy to an unknown six-year-old, who I suppose is a boy even by your standards. I might say hon. I am also afraid that if I did not know the person, I would inadvertently call a youthful-looking 25-year-old a boy. And teenagers don’t necessarily like to be reminded that they are teenagers. It can come off as condescending (so can calling them, directly, men or young men. Best to just call them by name.) I do, however, say things like “How’s your boy?” to mothers. But we have spent far too much too much time on this tangent, which I suppose you intend to show that Trayvon had the common sense and the savvy of any grown adult out in the world and thus is responsible for his own death. And it’s ridiculous. \*All samples of conversation in this part are actual things that I have uttered to unknown teenaged black boys in my neighborhood. I should move. ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/571 "2012-04-22T20:56:34Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > And you are assuming that Trayvon was going to stop doing stupid things in 11 months when turned 18? You are assuming that that Trayvon had no responsibility for his actions. Even teenagers are supposed to know the difference between right and wrong and know that you aren’t supposed to go around punching people out. The is why we have to option of trying teenagers as adults. > > I suspect Trayvon knew exactly why Martin was eyeing him and it pissed him off. “Why are you following me?” is not something you say to somebody you think is a mugger. When Zimmerman didn’t flash a badge, then Martin punched him. Wouldn’t it piss you off? But I’m sure they have stick-up boys (huh. there’s another term) in Florida, and I’m sure Trayvon had heard of Jeffrey Dahmer, if not John Wayne Gacy and Dean Corll. Lots of reasons to be scared of someone who follows you in a car, then appears on foot. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/572 "2012-04-22T21:27:07Z")
> [@enomaj](#): > > Well, **Joel Upchurch** , I don’t know about placing a holster behind you instead of in front which is what I assumed. He was pinned so no rollling if we are to believe Zimmerman’s surrogates. Plus the brother says there was a struggle for the gun after Trayvon spotted it. I don’t know how that happens if the holster is not in the front. > > What I don’t understand is that all Zimmerman did was yell for help and scooch onto the grass before deciding to kill Trayvon. No punches thrown, no trying to escape the pin. I know the weight advantage has shrunk to 20 lbs. but damn. He wouldn’t have a front holster with that jacket. A front draw is something he might wear with a sweat shirt. I figure an inside the pants side draw holster or a small of the back rig like the picture I linked to. If he had a side draw, then he shouldn’t have a problem drawing unless he couldn’t get his right arm free. Of course the bond hearing suggests a different scenario. > [@](#): > > UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he also not state that at some point, he the defendant – did he not state or claim that the victim in this case, Mr. Martin, put both hands one over his mouth and one over his nose so that he couldn’t breathe? > > GILBREATH: Yes. > > UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And all of sudden that’s when he was able to get free and grab the gun. Or I’m sorry, Martin was grabbing for the gun, did he not claim that too at some point. climb that? That would be consistent with a side draw holster and would explain why Martin could see the pistol. Zimmerman just couldn’t get a hand free until Martin tried to suffocate him. The State’s questions imply that they didn’t find Martin’s fingerprints on the pistol or they are just implying that Martin couldn’t have both hands on Zimmerman’s face and fighting for the firearm at the same time. Also not being able to breathe would explain Zimmerman’s panic. It is amazing how scary it can be to not be able to breathe. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/573 "2012-04-22T21:32:51Z")
Have the autopsy results shed any light on what happened (including any ballistics tests)? ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/574 "2012-04-22T21:48:46Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > That would be consistent with a side draw holster and would explain why Martin could see the pistol. Zimmerman just couldn’t get a hand free until Martin tried to suffocate him. The State’s questions imply that they didn’t find Martin’s fingerprints on the pistol or they are just implying that Martin couldn’t have both hands on Zimmerman’s face and fighting for the firearm at the same time. Also not being able to breathe would explain Zimmerman’s panic. It is amazing how scary it can be to not be able to breathe. One cannot scream and suffocate at the same time, but during the one 9-11 call, there is fairly continuous screaming–loud, not muffled-- for the two minutes immediately prior to the gunshot. If Zimmerman was the one screaming for help, he could not have had Martin’s hands blocking his airway (at least not effectively) If Martin was blocking Zimmerman’s airway, then Martin would have been the one screaming for help. To me, btw, the screams do not sound as if actual blows were being exchanged. If you are screaming while being punched or having your head knocked against the ground, the screams will sound sort of punctuated. I could imagine that screaming happening while two people wrestle over a gun, though. > [@Lochdale](#): > > Have the autopsy results shed any light on what happened (including any ballistics tests)? Autopsy hasn’t been released yet. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/575 "2012-04-22T21:53:27Z")
> [@sugaree](#): > > Wouldn’t it piss you off? But I’m sure they have stick-up boys (huh. there’s another term) in Florida, and I’m sure Trayvon had heard of Jeffrey Dahmer, if not John Wayne Gacy and Dean Corll. Lots of reasons to be scared of someone who follows you in a car, then appears on foot. I would have called 911 as soon as I saw somebody eyeing me. Waiting until you are sure you have a problem before you call 911 is stupid. Just being seen making a phone call is enough deter some people. I’ve never gotten into a fight with a stranger in my entire life. I’m not a pacifist. I just don’t see the upside. I also don’t give corrective hand gestures to people who cut me off in traffic. No upside. I never heard the term stick up boys. Is armed robbery common enough where you live to need a special term? ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/576 "2012-04-22T22:02:24Z")
Are you seventeen? And yes, I used to live in Baltimore. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/577 "2012-04-22T22:18:44Z")
> [@sugaree](#): > > One cannot scream and suffocate at the same time, but during the one 9-11 call, there is fairly continuous screaming–loud, not muffled-- for the two minutes immediately prior to the gunshot. It was 45 seconds and it wasn’t continuous. I mapped it out from the 911 recording. When I deleted the non screaming parts I have 15 seconds left before the gunshots. > [@](#): > > If Zimmerman was the one screaming for help, he could not have had Martin’s hands blocking his airway (at least not effectively) > > If Martin was blocking Zimmerman’s airway, then Martin would have been the one screaming for help. > > To me, btw, the screams do not sound as if actual blows were being exchanged. If you are screaming while being punched or having your head knocked against the ground, the screams will sound sort of punctuated. I could imagine that screaming happening while two people wrestle over a gun, though > > Autopsy hasn’t been released yet. Now that you mention it, the last scream might be Martin when he feels the muzzle against his chest. When I removed the non-screaming parts, the last two screams sound completely different. My first reaction when I heard it was, “That is two different guys or somebody got kicked in the balls really hard.”. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/578 "2012-04-22T22:30:39Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > You don’t have any problem to walking up to a group of teenage black male basketball players and saying, “You boys are playing well.”. You don’t think they might be offended? that’s not how it’s being used in this discussion. Nobody is addressing anyone in the first person pronoun. “Boy” is correct. “Teenager” is correct. “Young man” is correct. None of these would be used in the first person because it wouldn’t make sense unless you’re old and addressed someone as “young man”. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/579 "2012-04-22T22:42:58Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > … I’ve lived in my neighborhood for over 20 years and I only know the names of a couple of streets. … Do you know the names of three streets? That includes the one you live on too. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/580 "2012-04-22T22:49:55Z")
> [@sugaree](#): > > Are you seventeen? > > And yes, I used to live in Baltimore. When I was 17, 911 didn’t exist much less cell phones. My parents commented that I had a had a rather abnormal adolescence. They kept waiting for me to go nuts like my brother and sister, but it never happened. I guess I can’t really comment on the feelings of normal teenagers. Frankly I don’t remember anybody at my school acting like teenagers do now. The bad boys were the one’s smoking cigarettes behind the gym. I remember when Mike and Billy tried to put their shotguns in their school locker, but they just got chewed out by the vice-principal. “I don’t care if the XXXXXX lock on your XXXXXXX truck is broken. You can’t bring you shotguns into the school.” Different world. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=30)