# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/581 "2012-04-22T22:53:52Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Do you know the names of three streets? That includes the one you live on too. > > CMC fnord! yep, one is a major road extending through many municipalities. Is it a crime to not know the names of the street your on? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/582 "2012-04-22T22:58:20Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > When I was 17, 911 didn’t exist much less cell phones. My parents commented that I had a had a rather abnormal adolescence. They kept waiting for me to go nuts like my brother and sister, but it never happened. I guess I can’t really comment on the feelings of normal teenagers. Frankly I don’t remember anybody at my school acting like teenagers do now. The bad boys were the one’s smoking cigarettes behind the gym. I remember when Mike and Billy tried to put their shotguns in their school locker, but they just got chewed out by the vice-principal. “I don’t care if the XXXXXX lock on your XXXXXXX truck is broken. You can’t bring you shotguns into the school.” Different world. I carried a foot long knife with me as a bookmark between classes while I was making it in shop class. Yes, times have changed. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/583 "2012-04-22T23:01:11Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > that’s not how it’s being used in this discussion. Nobody is addressing anyone in the first person pronoun. “Boy” is correct. “Teenager” is correct. “Young man” is correct. None of these would be used in the first person because it wouldn’t make sense unless you’re old and addressed someone as “young man”. I don’t have a problem if people referring to Martin as a Teenager or a young man, but calling him a boy makes him sound like he is about 10. The semantic connotations of the word boy are deliberately misleading. He was a young man who was responsible for his actions, not a child. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/584 "2012-04-22T23:01:59Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > When I was 17, 911 didn’t exist much less cell phones. My parents commented that I had a had a rather abnormal adolescence. They kept waiting for me to go nuts like my brother and sister, but it never happened. I guess I can’t really comment on the feelings of normal teenagers. Frankly I don’t remember anybody at my school acting like teenagers do now. The bad boys were the one’s smoking cigarettes behind the gym. I remember when Mike and Billy tried to put their shotguns in their school locker, but they just got chewed out by the vice-principal. “I don’t care if the XXXXXX lock on your XXXXXXX truck is broken. You can’t bring you shotguns into the school.” Different world. Were those the days when homesick, lovesick teenage boys could walk home in the rain and actually get there safe and sound? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/585 "2012-04-22T23:02:17Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > That would be consistent with a side draw holster and would explain why Martin could see the pistol. Zimmerman just couldn’t get a hand free until Martin tried to suffocate him. The State’s questions imply that they didn’t find Martin’s fingerprints on the pistol or they are just implying that Martin couldn’t have both hands on Zimmerman’s face and fighting for the firearm at the same time. Also not being able to breathe would explain Zimmerman’s panic. It is amazing how scary it can be to not be able to breathe. But obviously he was able to breathe if moments before the shooting, that was him yelling on that tape. That was not the voice of someone with compromised breathing. And the yell lasted a decent length of time. If it was Martin screaming then that belies all the stuff Zimmerman said about Martins last words. Zimmerman has never asserted that Martin yelled for help, that we know of. If Martin was trying to suffocate him with both his hands, how was Zimmerman’s arms pinned down? Why would Zimmerman’s first move be to fumble for his gun rather than use his upper body strength to knock Martin off? The more that comes out about Zimmermans statement, the more ridiculousness we must accept. Now in addition to a knock-out punch to the face and his cranium getting pounded into the sidewalk, we’re being told Martin almost suffocated Zimmerman with his bare hands while pinning his arms down at the same time. Is it just me or was this kid a prodigy fighter of which the world has never seen? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/586 "2012-04-22T23:06:20Z")
I think the autopsy revealed that he was an octopus, right? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/587 "2012-04-22T23:07:50Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > For the record, Trayvon Martin turned 17 three weeks before he was murdered. Maybe the record shouldn’t say ‘murdered’ just yet. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/588 "2012-04-22T23:15:59Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > The more that comes out about Zimmermans statement, the more ridiculousness we must accept. Now in addition to a knock-out punch to the face and his cranium getting pounded into the sidewalk, we’re being told Martin almost suffocated Zimmerman with his bare hands while pinning his arms down at the same time. Is it just me or was this kid a prodigy fighter of which the world has never seen? Wasn’t there supposed to be some wrestling for the gun somewhere in there too? ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/589 "2012-04-22T23:26:31Z")
Yeah, here they are explaining that part: [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/OFDvMP0zayk/hqdefault.jpg "Renne Zellweger -Chicago Movie Doll (They both reached for the gun)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFDvMP0zayk) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/590 "2012-04-22T23:31:04Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > If Martin was trying to suffocate him with both his hands, how was Zimmerman’s arms pinned down? If Martin had him pinned down and could hit him in the face and grab Zimmerman’s head then he was sitting on his chest with his knees on Zimmerman’s arms. > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Why would Zimmerman’s first move be to fumble for his gun rather than use his upper body strength to knock Martin off? We don’t know where Zimmerman’s gun was so more information is needed but the witness account has Martin on Zimmerman in a fight that appears to take 40 or more seconds which then ended with Zimmerman shooting Martin in a claim of self defense. That’s the case. You keep responding with adjectives like “ridiculousness” when presented with reported information. You may not believe a 6’ 3’ male who plays football is incapable of inflicting bodily harm but we know from at least one eye witness that he was on top of Zimmerman. It’s not just Zimmerman’s assertion that Martin got the better of him, witnesses saw it. The prosecution has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman did not believe he was in mortal danger. We know a fight occurred and we know Martin was on top and that one or both of them screamed at some point. If I remember correctly the witness who saw Martin on top said the man on the bottom was screaming for help. That’s what we know. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/591 "2012-04-22T23:37:45Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > The semantic connotations of the word boy are deliberately misleading. He was a young man who was responsible for his actions, not a child. He was a teenager. He was a minor child. He was a boy. He was a young man. He was a youth. The English language offers a multitude of options. Pick one and leave others to the same freedom. Since you’re all het up about responsibility, do you think Martin was just as much of a “responsible” person as Zimmerman? Do you think a typical 17-year-old knows how to stay calm and collected under a stressful situation in the same manner that a typical 28-year-old does? If you saw the two guys wrestling in the yard, would you think they were equally stupid or would you think one–by virtue of his age–was considerably more stupid than the other? ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/592 "2012-04-22T23:41:30Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If Martin had him pinned down and could hit him in the face and grab Zimmerman’s head then he was sitting on his chest with his knees on Zimmerman’s arms. But if Martin was straddling Zimmerman facing his head, how could he see the gun at Zimmerman’s waist? And if Martin’s knees were on Zimmerman’s arms, how could Zimmerman get out his gun and point it Martin’s chest? I’m really open to the idea that it all went down exactly the way Zimmerman described, but the logistics are not making any sense to me. > [@Magiver](#): > > We don’t know where Zimmerman’s gun was so more information is needed but the witness account has Martin on Zimmerman in a fight that appears to take 40 or more seconds which then ended with Zimmerman shooting Martin in a claim of self defense. > > That’s the case. You keep responding with adjectives like “ridiculousness” when presented with reported information. You may not believe a 6’ 3’ male who plays football is incapable of inflicting bodily harm but we know from at least one eye witness that he was on top of Zimmerman. It’s not just Zimmerman’s assertion that Martin got the better of him, witnesses saw it. I read that Martin had not played football since he aged out of Pop Warner, and that he did not play at his high school. Not one hundred percent sure of that though. And you know, I feel like it should be said every couple of pages on every debate on every Internet forum talking about this: whoever wins a fight has nothing to do with who starts a fight. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/593 "2012-04-22T23:50:26Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > We don’t know where Zimmerman’s gun was so more information is needed but the witness account has Martin on Zimmerman in a fight that appears to take 40 or more seconds which then ended with Zimmerman shooting Martin in a claim of self defense. > > That’s the case. You keep responding with adjectives like “ridiculousness” when presented with reported information. You may not believe a 6’ 3’ male who plays football is incapable of inflicting bodily harm but we know from at least one eye witness that he was on top of Zimmerman. It’s not just Zimmerman’s assertion that Martin got the better of him, witnesses saw it. A witness said they saw Martin on top of Zimmerman. He didn’t see Martin strike him or slam his head into the concrete. He didn’t see him wrestle the gun away from him. He didn’t see how Zimmerman’s arms were pinned. If the witness had seen these things, we wouldn’t be talking about this! It is ridiculous to unquestioningly believe that a person could do all the things that supposedly happened to Zimmerman. You can say it’s plausible, sure, but wouldn’t an explanation be nice? I would like someone to explain how Zimmerman can be “almost” suffocated while still screaming like a banshee. And how he could be having his head bashed into the sidewalk and almost sinking into unconciousness while also fighting for a gun and also screaming and also being suffocated and also hearing comic-book villian lines from the guy trying to kill him. If all of these things didn’t happen simultaneously, great. But it IS ridiculous to blindly accept that they all happened at the same time. You do not have to be biased against Zimmerman to think WTF? It’s one thing to say, “Hey, the state can’t prove it didn’t happen!” That very well may true. But it is crazy to sit there and act like the story doesn’t have a certain wildness to it. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/594 "2012-04-22T23:53:57Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > You can say it’s plausible, sure, but wouldn’t an explanation be nice? I would like someone to explain how Zimmerman can be “almost” suffocated while still screaming like a banshee. And how he could be having his head bashed into the sidewalk and almost sinking into unconciousness while also fighting for a gun and also screaming and also being suffocated and also hearing comic-book villian lines from the guy trying to kill him. If all of these things didn’t happen simultaneously, great. But it IS ridiculous to blindly accept that they all happened at the same time. You do not have to be biased against Zimmerman to think WTF? > > It’s one thing to say, “Hey, the state can’t prove it didn’t happen!” That very well may true. But it is crazy to sit there and act like the story doesn’t have a certain wildness to it. Well, if you want someone to explain, tune in to my thread I[n which Stoid (The Prosecutor) Cross-examines Bricker (George Zimmerman)](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=649209) - I’m going to do my best to press him for answers for all this stuff, and he’s going to do his best to make it make sense. Let’s see if he does it. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/595 "2012-04-22T23:53:57Z")
> [@sugaree](#): > > But if Martin was straddling Zimmerman facing his head, how could he see the gun at Zimmerman’s waist? And if Martin’s knees were on Zimmerman’s arms, how could Zimmerman get out his gun and point it Martin’s chest? I have a hard time picturing this too. It just seems convoluted. His arms are pinned but eventually somehow he frees at least one, okay. But how does he crook his arm all the way up and over so he can shoot Martin in the chest? That would require his shoulder to be able to fully rotate. Can’t see how that would be possible, if Martin was straddling his whole upper body. If Martin was literally sitting on his chest, that would have impaired Zimmerman’s breathing too. Which goes back to the yelling. Anyone think they’d be able to scream like that with a 170-lb weight planted on your sternum? Never mind through head punches and suffocation. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/596 "2012-04-22T23:58:31Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > He was a teenager. He was a minor child. He was a boy. He was a young man. He was a youth. The English language offers a multitude of options. Pick one and leave others to the same freedom. Of course. So what did the troubled student do then, anyway? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/597 "2012-04-23T00:01:01Z")
If Martin gets to be called a troubled student, Zimmerman will be termed a homicidal gunman going forward. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/598 "2012-04-23T00:02:39Z")
Can you take the safety off a gun with one hand? If not, then does this mean that either 1) Zimmerman had to have taken the safety off early in the confrontation or 2) both hands were free? If he was able to get both hands free, why wouldn’t Zimmerman just push Martin off of him? Or roll over? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/599 "2012-04-23T00:03:24Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The prosecution has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman did not believe he was in mortal danger. . Zimmerman believing he was in mortal danger is not the beginning and end of the story. He could believe it with all his heart, but if the prosecution can persuade the jury that **he was the instigator** and that **he failed to exhaust all other non-lethal options before he resorted to lethal force** , then the degree and intensity of Zimmerman’s fear is irrelevant, because he will no longer be able to claim it was self-defense. Reposting from an earlier post with link: > [@](#): > > In the Zimmerman case the prosecution will make the following argument. Based upon his own statements to the police dispatcher Zimmerman profiled Martin and followed him in his car, and then exited his car and followed him armed with a gun. Zimmerman suspected Martin of committing a crime and was intent that Martin should not get away. Martin was completely innocent of any crime; he was simply walking home from a trip  to the store. Zimmerman was unjustified in pursuing Martin and under the circumstances his conduct was threatening. This, the prosecution will argue, was sufficient to “initially provoke” the ensuing struggle, no matter who struck the first blow. There is no credible evidence that Zimmerman either tried to escape from Martin or that he withdrew and clearly indicated his intent to withdraw from the altercation. Accordingly, under 776.014, Zimmerman may not claim that he acted in self-defense. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/600 "2012-04-23T00:09:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Of course. > > So what did the troubled student do then, anyway? Are you still playing the role of the dispassionate and objective voice of reason? I think your slip is showing. Unless your sense of humor is thoroughly whooshing me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=31)