# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 301
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2012, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6003 "2012-10-10T00:43:25Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > One can make logical deductions and use analysis to fill in gaps. > If the speculation fits in, then it fits in. And when multiple scenarios “fit in,” what then? ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2012, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6004 "2012-10-10T00:43:37Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > In your opinion. In Florida law, the prosecution has to DISprove, beyond reasonable doubt, the self-defense claim. > People get convicted on proof. Not on speculation.\*\* Especially not on speculation (like yours) that is pulled straight out of rear ends, with no evidence to back it whatsoever.\*\* Yeah, no evidence whatsoever. In cases like this, events have to be reconstructed. They have to be–out of necessity. Because the fact remains Martin was in a certain place and so was Zimmerman. It has to be CLEARLY established how and when they both got to the point where their paths intersected. No intersection, no killing. Simple. Now, when the actor is the only one around and tells a story that has holes and generally seems like bullshit, that makes you REALLY start looking deeper. then you say “the facts, the facts…” But are some people REALLY sure about what they think are facts? Did Zimmerman go back to his truck and get hit by Martin? Probably. But when you REALLY listen to him, his is not clear WHEN (and IMO IF ) he did. Some people think it was this unbroken sequence. But even Zimmerman doesn’t say it was an unbroken sequence (meaning immediately right after the other). Meaning Zimmerman could have been doing other things in between. He obviously is under no obligation to say, but it sucks when defenders completely rule this out. But the problem is that some of these defenders didn’t really listen to him carefully. I as well as some other posters try to imply this, and we get shut down “oh the facts, the facts”, even though many of us have probably sent more time analyzing, reading and listening to evidence than the so-called supporters. Again, Terr, I am going to be really nice to you. Listen to Zimmerman’s jail interview. CAREFULLY. All of it. Maybe you’ll pick something up and see why i am taking the viewpoint that i am, EVEN AFTER I INITIALLY GAVE THE GUY THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT. Something changed my opinion, and it was contained in the evidence dumps and interview. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2012, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6005 "2012-10-10T00:44:47Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > And when multiple scenarios “fit in,” what then? Argue yours with some damned good evidence and analysis. And see which one fits better, too. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2012, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6006 "2012-10-10T00:48:55Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Not if there is no evidence, whatsoever, to support your speculation. > If the prosecution brings speculation to the jury without any evidence, the judge will instruct the jury to disregard the speculation. > Apparently you have very little knowledge of the judicial process. > > What does “beyond reasonable doubt” mean to you other than “air tight”? > You, again, betray utter ignorance of the US judicial process. The defense doesn’t have to be “air tight”. \*\*It just has to show reasonable doubt in the guilt of the defendant, and he walks. > \*\* > Maybe in your country it’s different. But that’s how it is here in the US. Gonna be kinda hard, don’t you think? Oh wait, like I don’t know what you’re going to say…:smack: ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2012, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6007 "2012-10-10T00:48:58Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Maybe you’ll pick something up and see why i am taking the viewpoint that i am, EVEN AFTER I INITIALLY GAVE THE GUY THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT. > > Something changed my opinion, and it was contained in the evidence dumps and interview. Again, you don’t get it - no one cares what you think and what your opinion is. The judicial process does not run on opinions, especially not on opinions of people outside of the court room. It runs on facts, evidence, proof. And you have none for any of your speculations. And neither will the prosecution. There is absolutely no way that Zimmerman can be convicted of second degree murder based on currently published evidence. None. If he did, it would be a travesty of justice and a kangaroo court. The fact that the prosecutor had to skip the grand jury in order to manage to put through a murder-2 indictment speaks volumes. For the prosecutor this is a career-destroying move, and I hope she gets what she deserves for the prosecutorial misconduct that she has shown. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2012, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6008 "2012-10-10T00:49:40Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Argue yours with some damned good evidence and analysis. > > And see which one fits better, too. It’s not a case of which scenario fits better. The prosecution have to prove that their scenario is the only one that fits. If the defence can show another scenario that fits the facts, even if it’s unlikely, there’s reasonable doubt and the jury must acquit. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2012, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6009 "2012-10-10T00:50:29Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Gonna be kinda hard, don’t you think? It’s going to be extremely easy. I know you don’t think so, but you seem to be completely ignorant of how court system works, based on your posts. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2012, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6010 "2012-10-10T00:52:10Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Not if there is no evidence, whatsoever, to support your speculation. > If the prosecution brings speculation to the jury without any evidence, the judge will instruct the jury to disregard the speculation. > Apparently you have very little knowledge of the judicial process. > > What does “beyond reasonable doubt” mean to you other than “air tight”? > You, again, betray utter ignorance of the US judicial process. The defense doesn’t have to be “air tight”.\*\* It just has to show reasonable doubt in the guilt of the defendant, and he walks. > \*\* > Maybe in your country it’s different. But that’s how it is here in the US. I believe I said this based on the nature of this individual crime. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2012, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6011 "2012-10-10T00:52:55Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Gonna be kinda hard, don’t you think? No. The length of this thread highlights the different conclusions that can be drawn from the same evidence. Absent new evidence, there is reasonable doubt of his guilt. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6012 "2012-10-10T00:53:13Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > I believe I said this based on the nature of this individual crime. People don’t get convicted based on “nature of the crime”. They get convicted based on evidence. You know, something that prosecution is lacking in this case. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6013 "2012-10-10T00:53:30Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Again, you don’t get it - no one cares what you think and what your opinion is. The judicial process does not run on opinions, especially not on opinions of people outside of the court room. It runs on facts, evidence, proof. And you have none for any of your speculations. And neither will the prosecution. > > There is absolutely no way that Zimmerman can be convicted of second degree murder based on currently published evidence. None. If he did, it would be a travesty of justice and a kangaroo court. The fact that the prosecutor had to skip the grand jury in order to manage to put through a murder-2 indictment speaks volumes. **For the prosecutor this is a career-destroying move, and I hope she gets what she deserves for the prosecutorial misconduct that she has shown.** I believe I have heard this before from certain fringe groups in the United States. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2012, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6014 "2012-10-10T00:57:22Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > People don’t get convicted based on “nature of the crime”. They get convicted based on evidence. You know, something that prosecution is lacking in this case. They’re not lacking evidence. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2012, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6015 "2012-10-10T00:58:30Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > **People don’t get convicted based on “nature of the crime”**. They get convicted based on evidence. You know, something that prosecution is lacking in this case. They get convicted on both, absolutely. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2012, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6016 "2012-10-10T00:58:34Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Yeah, because you’re some sick twisted fuck, that’s why. > [@betenoire39](#): > > FUCK YOU. I realize you’re new, **Betenorie** , but this is against the rules for In My Humble Opinion…don’t say anything like these things again in this forum. You use the BBQ Pit if you have a problem with another poster. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2012, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6017 "2012-10-10T00:59:14Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > They’re not lacking evidence. Maybe they have something they’re hiding (although according to FL sunshine laws, they are allowed to hide very little, basically only Zimmerman’s phone records), but from the evidence that was released there is absolutely no way they can prove murder-2 beyond reasonable doubt. There just isn’t anything to support it. And Corey better have something up her sleeve, because if she doesn’t, this is about as clear a case of prosecutorial misconduct as can be. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2012, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6018 "2012-10-10T01:04:08Z")
> [@Idle\_Thoughts](#): > > I realize you’re new, **Betenorie** , but this is against the rules for In My Humble Opinion…don’t say anything like these things again in this forum. > You use the BBQ Pit if you have a problem with another poster. Understood. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2012, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6019 "2012-10-10T01:06:14Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Again, you don’t get it - no one cares what you think and what your opinion is. The judicial process does not run on opinions, especially not on opinions of people outside of the court room. It runs on facts, evidence, proof. And you have none for any of your speculations. And neither will the prosecution. Terr, I “get it”. Please stop making believe you are part of the courts. I am talking To you responding TO you. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2012, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6020 "2012-10-10T01:07:22Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Maybe they have something they’re hiding (although according to FL sunshine laws, they are allowed to\*\* hide very little\*\*, basically only Zimmerman’s phone records), but from the evidence that was released there is absolutely no way they can prove murder-2 beyond reasonable doubt. There just isn’t anything to support it. > > And Corey better have something up her sleeve, because if she doesn’t, this is about as clear a case of prosecutorial misconduct as can be. this is what\*\* PatriotX\*\* was talking about before… ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2012, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6021 "2012-10-10T01:08:22Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Terr, I “get it”. > Please stop making believe you are part of the courts. I am talking To you responding TO you. This thread is not about what you feel about Zimmerman’s guilt or innocence. It is about what evidence exists that points to guilt or innocence. And you have yet to bring any to support your wild conjectures (like “Zimmerman approached Martin and screamed at him” or “Martin didn’t obey Zimmerman so he shot him”). ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2012, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6022 "2012-10-10T01:15:51Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > This thread is not about what you feel about Zimmerman’s guilt or innocence. It is about what evidence exists that points to guilt or innocence. And you have yet to bring any to support your wild conjectures (like “Zimmerman approached Martin and screamed at him” or “Martin didn’t obey Zimmerman so he shot him”). Don’t engage me then if you don’t want me to answer you–this is very Zimmerman-like. You asked me specific questions, so I answered you. Want to talk about speculation–I brought up an absolute LEGIT discussion about Martin’s edema, and I get this response that the edema could have made Martin attack Zimmerman. I literally started laughing when I read that. Don’t start defining this thread on your own accord–it’s a lot of things: people making racial remarks, being rude, insulting, etc. Don’t start playing games now. Wild? Listen to what DeeDee said. Closely. Yes, I believe Zimmerman shot a defiant Martin. Yes, this is speculation, I am not denying this. But afterall, they always get away, don’t they? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=300) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=302)