# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 304
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6063 "2012-10-11T04:32:27Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > I would suggest that your statement that Martin attacked Zimmerman is speculation. Zimmerman’s injuries could certainly be consistent with Martin fighting off Zimmerman’s attempt at unlawfully detaining him. It’s not speculation. Zimmerman claims that he was attacked. It needs to be proved that he’s lying, and no-one’s done so as yet. > [@betenoire39](#): > > 1. No, I have problems with people who try to belittle those because they are pointing out inconsistencies and alternate theories that might be just as plausible as theirs. > There were posters who I disagreed with but we didn’t have an exchange like this. You’ve not come up with any plausible theories. You’ve come up with wild, baseless speculation, and when called on it refused to answer questions about it. > [@](#): > > They didn’t write out racial slurs and say things like “people like you” and such… > They didn’t play rhetorical games with me. No-one’s been playing rhetorical games with you. Pointing out where you don’t understand what words mean, or how the legal system works, or that you don’t actually know the facts of this case, is neither rhetoric, nor a game. > [@](#): > > 1. I never said I was an expert. I was simply pointing out that there was so little blood to show on Martin for such a ‘savage’ beating-- and NONE of Zimmerman’s DNA under Martin’s fingernails to boot. I don’t care WHICH side you stand on–you don’t see this as ODD? No. He was above Zimmerman, I wouldn’t expect blood to flow upwards. I also don’t see any marks on Zimmerman consistent with fingernail scratches, so the lack of DNA under the nails doesn’t show anything. > [@](#): > > It is my personal opinion of him that he is sick…his actions that night sicken me. No to mention his past with a cousin, his actions at work, and the way this guy seems to treat certain people. Your opinion of him is irrelevant to the legality of his actions. It fully explains why you want to punish him regardless of their legality, and says a great deal more about your mindset than Zimmermans. > [@](#): > > 1. I disagree…Zimmerman did everything wrong IMO. And again, I hope you know you are speculating here. And even if it was true, how do you know it wasn’t in self-defense? Your opinion is, again, irrelevant and worthless. I’ve repeatedly asked you to explain what Zimmerman did wrong, with cites to the relevant laws, and you’ve refused. You have nothing. > [@](#): > > 1. I disagree–Martin DID put distance between himself and Zimmerman. Even Zimmerman will admit that. Anyone listening to that 911 tape will agree. > That’s where the “double back” bullshit has to come in. That was the ONLY THING LEFT for Zimmerman to say. Except it’s not Zimmerman saying it. It’s people who’ve analysed the timing of the phone calls, and the positions of the people at those times. There is no way Zimmerman could have encountered Martin if he’d continued walking home. > [@](#): > > If I put distance between someone and that person was still coming at me, especially in that situation, my self-defense mechanism would kick in, for sure. If you attacked someone for following you it would not be self defence, it would be assault. Regardless of your feelings on the matter. > [@](#): > > Zimmerman had no rights over Martin. None. False. He had the right to defend himself. > [@betenoire39](#): > > Some people are operating under the assumption that Zimmerman was the 'good guy" who was “protecting his neighborhood”. Correct. He called the police about a suspicious individual he witnessed. That’s laudable behaviour. > [@](#): > > They are also operating under the assumption that Martin launched an “unprovoked assault” against him (Why? Racial assumptions and assumptions about his parents). Nothing to do with race. Everything to do with evidence. We have evidence of an unprovoked attack, and none of provocation. Therefore, it is reasonable to doubt provocation. > [@](#): > > Under these assumptions, it would be reasonable to believe Zimmerman (even if his story doesn’t quite check out). No, one believes Zimmerman or not if and only if his story checks out, regardless of assumptions. > [@](#): > > I am not operating under these assumptions. > That’s why I am not coming to the same conclusions (combined with my analysis of Zimmerman’s interviews and evidence dumps ). No, you are operating on the assumption that Zimmerman is sick and evil, and you will stop at nothing to twist the facts to find him guilty of something, anything. [quote[Some people are very clear about why they believe Zimmerman: it has nothing really to do with Zimmerman-it’s about how they perceive\*\* MARTIN\*\*. To some, Martin is “No Limit Nigga with a hair trigga temper”, exhibiting what they feel is stereotypical behavior[/quote] I don’t stereotype black people as launching unprovoked attacks on people. How I perceive Martin has no bearing on whether I believe Zimmerman. > [@](#): > > I just wish they would be more honest in saying what they really feel. > > But if you read between the lines of some posters, this comes out. I’ve been entirely honest about how I feel. I feel race is irrelevant to this case, I feel Martin acted like a thug in this instance (no judgement made about his previous actions), and I feel Zimmerman is a victim here. > [@betenoire39](#): > > 1. Agreed–Martin had the right to defend himself. Against what? Be specific, and cite what evidence you are using to show Zimmerman put Martin in reasonable fear of an attack. ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6064 "2012-10-11T12:16:51Z")
I remember the original news stories, then lost interest. This thread was floating to the top and so I clicked and started reading about the time there was a video posted that was made by someone who narrates his idea of what happened. I disagree with that person who posted his theory is that Z knocked on doors. I’ve listened to the two police interviews (2/26, 2/29) watched the police/Z reenactment video, the Hanity Show interview, read about the autopsy report and listened to some witness interviews released by the PD. I do not believe Zimmerman’s version of events during the thee(?) minutes between his hang up with the PD and the arrival of the police on scene. Zimmerman claims to have received 12 or more blows (Hanity) and that Martin specifically grabbed his head and bashed it into the sidewalk several times (I got the impression of 4 or more times). At least one of those times, while Zimmerman was trying to sit up, Martin grabbed his head and slammed it back into the sidewalk. In the video reenactment, the rear of Zimmerman’s head is clearly visible. The video (slightly less than 48 hrs after the event) shows no bruising on the back of his head. Certainly not what you’d expect after having had a 17yo ON TOP OF HIM slam his head back into concrete. There is no bruising on his face beside the nose (where did those 12 punches land?). Second, in that video, Zimmerman looks to both sides and moves his head around quickly as he’s describing the events of the night. He uses his arms to point and twists his entire body around at one point to point behind them. There is absolutely no signs of soft tissue injury to the neck or spine. I find it hard to believe that a person, who’s head has been forcefully slammed backwards, at the same time as they were straining to sit up, could not have a strained neck from even one slamming and Zimmerman claimed multiple slams. W11, John and Zimmerman all say the confrontation started at or near the T in the sidewalks and moved between the townhouses toward the place where Martin was visiting. John / Fiance both describe the confrontation as moving during the screams for help saying they were coming closer to their house. W11 describes the initial exchange at the side of her house, then a scuffle moving around the back and down between the townhouses. Neither of these accounts are consistent with Zimmerman’s claim that he was clocked and went down immediately and was calling for help from on his back. I’ve not seen/heard and account for how Zimmerman escaped from underneath the body of Martin without getting any of Martin’s blood on him. Zimmerman claims Martin spoke and struggled after the gun shot. The autopsy seems to say that would not have been possible given the nature of the shot. Zimmerman has not claimed an accidental discharge of his gun. So that leaves intentional discharge. He claims self defense and will be able to plea that case with the judge. If the judge buys his story, then the case will be over then and there. If not, then it will go to trial where the prosecution will attempt to prove second degree murder. Martin was shot and Zimmerman admits to having shot him. Zimmerman had time to reflect on his actions and even had an external stimulus (the operator who told Zimmerman that he didn’t need to follow Martin) yet Zimmerman continued. So, that leaves Zimmerman’s account for motive at the point of discharge. As I said, I don’t believe his version of events and since I don’t view him as credible, I also don’t believe his claim of self defense. Instead I take it as an attempt to willfully cover up an intentional shooting. I don’t think that Zimmerman is a racist or any of that. I think Zimmerman attempted to detain Martin, that Martin fought back and that Zimmerman accidentally killed him. BUT, Zimmerman has never claimed an accidental shooting, so to me that leaves deciding if it was (may have been) willful. Since I feel that an honest person would have admitted an accidental shooting by now, I would have not problem convicting Zimmerman of second degree murder if I were on the jury. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6065 "2012-10-11T12:25:19Z")
> [@Enkel](#): > > I remember the original news stories, then lost interest. This thread was floating to the top and so I clicked and started reading about the time there was a video posted that was made by someone who narrates his idea of what happened. I disagree with that person who posted his theory is that Z knocked on doors. Especially since those sounds are apparent from the time Z gets out of his truck, iirc. > [@Enkel](#): > > There is no bruising on his face beside the nose (where did those 12 punches land?). Z doesn’t seem to have defensive wounds from protecting his head with his hands and arms. So who knows where those blows went? > [@Enkel](#): > > Neither of these accounts are consistent with Zimmerman’s claim that he was clocked and went down immediately and was calling for help from on his back. Z has also claimed that he stumbled forward toward his attacker for 30 - 40 feet after being punched. So just because one version of Z’s events doesn’t include the stumbling doesn’t mean that some other version of his story doesn’t have it. There’s a smorgasbord of narratives to choose from. Don’t get all caught up with looking for consistency. It’ll just make it harder for you to believe Z. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6066 "2012-10-11T12:44:15Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > That was back in April before the discovery started. People who want to spin theories that aren’t supported by evidence, aren’t speculating they are fantasizing. At this point, it is a question of whose opinions are based on facts, and whose are not. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6067 "2012-10-11T12:52:07Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > There’s a smorgasbord of narratives to choose from. Don’t get all caught up with looking for consistency. It’ll just make it harder for you to believe Z. The most compelling thing to me is the reenactment video and the fact that Zimmerman shows no signs of neck or spine injury. Even with heavy medications, there would still be guarding and he would never have been able to twist his entire body to point back over the seat. So, until they produce a doctor that can explain the bashing of the head against the sidewalk without neck/spine injury I just don’t believe his account of the altercation. In the initial interview, Zimmerman claimed to have gone down right away. Physically look at how far 30 feet actually is. If I were hit and moved 30 feet, I would not describe that as going straight down. I would have described stumbling along until ??? caused me to fall. I certainly would know the difference between yelling while stumbling along and yelling while on my back and being beaten in the head. I’m not personally trying to believe anyone. I was curious about why there was such a major disagreement over the event. I decided to avoid all the arm-chair theories and only focus on the videos of Zimmerman, then I watched probably about 1/3 of the PD interviews. A person could spend months watching/reading all the theories. Perhaps (if they don’t prevail in the self-defense hearing) the trial will span months laying out those theories. But, at this point, without a doctor to confidently explain how you can have your head smashed and get no bruising or neck trauma… to me they’re not relevant. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6068 "2012-10-11T13:11:18Z")
> [@Enkel](#): > > I remember the original news stories, then lost interest. This thread was floating to the top and so I clicked and started reading about the time there was a video posted that was made by someone who narrates his idea of what happened. I disagree with that person who posted his theory is that Z knocked on doors. > > I’ve listened to the two police interviews (2/26, 2/29) watched the police/Z reenactment video, the Hanity Show interview, read about the autopsy report and listened to some witness interviews released by the PD. > > I do not believe Zimmerman’s version of events during the thee(?) minutes between his hang up with the PD and the arrival of the police on scene. > > Zimmerman claims to have received 12 or more blows (Hanity) and that Martin specifically grabbed his head and bashed it into the sidewalk several times (I got the impression of 4 or more times). At least one of those times, while Zimmerman was trying to sit up, Martin grabbed his head and slammed it back into the sidewalk. > > In the video reenactment, the rear of Zimmerman’s head is clearly visible. The video (slightly less than 48 hrs after the event) shows no bruising on the back of his head. Certainly not what you’d expect after having had a 17yo ON TOP OF HIM slam his head back into concrete. There is no bruising on his face beside the nose (where did those 12 punches land?). > > Second, in that video, Zimmerman looks to both sides and moves his head around quickly as he’s describing the events of the night. He uses his arms to point and twists his entire body around at one point to point behind them. There is absolutely no signs of soft tissue injury to the neck or spine. I find it hard to believe that a person, who’s head has been forcefully slammed backwards, at the same time as they were straining to sit up, could not have a strained neck from even one slamming and Zimmerman claimed multiple slams. > > W11, John and Zimmerman all say the confrontation started at or near the T in the sidewalks and moved between the townhouses toward the place where Martin was visiting. John / Fiance both describe the confrontation as moving during the screams for help saying they were coming closer to their house. W11 describes the initial exchange at the side of her house, then a scuffle moving around the back and down between the townhouses. Neither of these accounts are consistent with Zimmerman’s claim that he was clocked and went down immediately and was calling for help from on his back. > > I’ve not seen/heard and account for how Zimmerman escaped from underneath the body of Martin without getting any of Martin’s blood on him. > > Zimmerman claims Martin spoke and struggled after the gun shot. The autopsy seems to say that would not have been possible given the nature of the shot. > > Zimmerman has not claimed an accidental discharge of his gun. So that leaves intentional discharge. He claims self defense and will be able to plea that case with the judge. If the judge buys his story, then the case will be over then and there. If not, then it will go to trial where the prosecution will attempt to prove second degree murder. > > Martin was shot and Zimmerman admits to having shot him. > > Zimmerman had time to reflect on his actions and even had an external stimulus (the operator who told Zimmerman that he didn’t need to follow Martin) yet Zimmerman continued. > > So, that leaves Zimmerman’s account for motive at the point of discharge. As I said, I don’t believe his version of events and since I don’t view him as credible, I also don’t believe his claim of self defense. Instead I take it as an attempt to willfully cover up an intentional shooting. > > I don’t think that Zimmerman is a racist or any of that. I think Zimmerman attempted to detain Martin, that Martin fought back and that Zimmerman accidentally killed him. BUT, Zimmerman has never claimed an accidental shooting, so to me that leaves deciding if it was (may have been) willful. Since I feel that an honest person would have admitted an accidental shooting by now, I would have not problem convicting Zimmerman of second degree murder if I were on the jury. I totally agree. Zimmerman defenders probably don’t care about your points, as I have pointed out many of these things. **They DON’T CARE.** It’s “baseless speculation”. Some of them will argue that\*\* EVEN IF THIS WAS TRUE, YOU STILL CANT CONVICT HIM. \*\* That’s what we’re dealing with here. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6069 "2012-10-11T13:13:30Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > Don’t get all caught up with looking for consistency. It’ll just make it harder for you to believe Z. Exactly. Who cares about consistency? :smack: ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6070 "2012-10-11T13:18:17Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Some of them will argue that\*\* EVEN IF THIS WAS TRUE, YOU STILL CANT CONVICT HIM. \*\* > That’s what we’re dealing with here. For good reason. Beyond a reasonable doubt is an important safeguard for all of us. Being able to demonstrate that Z was lying is insufficient to convict him or murder 2. That is a good thing. Changing the standard for conviction from beyond a reasonable doubt, to “I think this is more likely to be true,” is a very, very, very bad idea, imho. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6071 "2012-10-11T13:20:40Z")
[QUOTE=Enkel] I’m not personally trying to believe anyone. I was curious about why there was such a major disagreement over the event. [/quote] Race and gun politics. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6072 "2012-10-11T13:33:02Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Well there is no speculation he was beating him. And it doesn’t seem logical that someone who went to the trouble of calling the police (who were minutes away) would commit a crime in front of them. This is the era where everyone owns a video camera phone. But remember, “they always get away”. I don’t find it hard to believe at all that Zimmerman attempted to detain Martin and expected compliance. From what we know of Zimmerman that is no leap of logic. > [@](#): > > Also, given the conversation as related by Dee Dee, Martin would have been insulted by the question asked by Zimmerman. He clearly was aware that Zimmerman was watching him. I would speculate that Martin found this question doubly insulting as a black person. Also no great leap required to believe that Martin shoved Zimmerman. Perhaps Zimmerman stumbles and begins to fall as a result. In his desire to see justice served he clutches at Martin’s hoody dragging him down on top of him. Perhaps he bangs his head in the fall. Somewhat disoriented (or desperate) he continues clutching at Martin as Martin repeatedly shoves him trying to get free. “Help” “Help” the confused Zimmerman hollers, afraid this one too is about to get away. Perhaps Martin fears Zimmerman is calling his boys for help. Martin struggles harder but everytime he shoves Zimmerman down to break away, Zimmerman is still clutching his damn hoody. In desperation he shoves Zimmerman in the face, maybe the heel of his hand connects with Zimmerman’s nose causing trauma. Zimmerman now panics and goes for his gun. Still clutching the hoody he draws his gun. As Martin tries to pull away he fires and finally lets go of the hoody. Martin tries to escape, but his destroyed organs don’t carry him far. I think it is at least as plausible as Zimmerman’s tale and it may fit some of the evidence better such as the contact shot with the clothing, but medium range from Martin’s body, and the angle of entry and path of wound. But as I said, mere speculation as we can’t get Martin’s side of the story to compare notes. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6073 "2012-10-11T13:39:58Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > That was back in April before the discovery started. People who want to spin theories that aren’t supported by evidence, aren’t speculating they are fantasizing. Joel just because this is going to trial does not magically turn it from an IMHO thread into a GD thread. Get real. There is a side of the stroy that never will be heard. It is perfectly fine to speculate about it. The trial will go the way it goes on the facts, but the facts are certainly not the whole story. I am perfectly comfortable with the justice system taking its course while also speculating about what we don’t and will never know. Zimmerman may be found guilty, but from the facts we do know, he isn’t someone I would care to befriend nor be a neighbor to. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6074 "2012-10-11T13:49:59Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > Joel just because this is going to trial does not magically turn it from an IMHO thread into a GD thread. Get real. There is a side of the stroy that never will be heard. It is perfectly fine to speculate about it. The trial will go the way it goes on the facts, but the facts are certainly not the whole story. I am perfectly comfortable with the justice system taking its course while also speculating about what we don’t and will never know. > > Zimmerman may be found guilty, but from the facts we do know, he isn’t someone I would care to befriend nor be a neighbor to. I suspect that the ones who feel that they’re not speculating about anything may have a blind spot about their feelings, conclusions, etc just like the rest of the human race has about their own feelings, conclusions, etc. I don’t find their statements deriding others dalliances into speculation to be convincing evidence that they have not done so as well. But, I also suspect that they were not trying to convince me. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6075 "2012-10-11T13:59:14Z")
I don’t think evidence supports the theory that Zimmerman panicked, at least in a fear for one’s life sense of the word. He was calm at the scene and his vitals were normal. The fight lasted long enough that there would have been plenty of time for him to have come to his senses and deescalate the situation if he’d wanted to. Again, lets remember the voice on the tape who was yelling for help at least 40 seconds before the gun went off. A normal person would not panic when hearing that voice. Thugs do not give themselves away by crying out like that. Someone afraid of being caught committing a crime might panic, though. This is why I think he was charged with 2nd degree murder rather than manslaughter. At a certain point in the fight, Zimmerman’s motive changed from detaining Martin to permanently silencing him. When he reenacted the fight and he pantomimed how Martin supposedly tried shutting him up, what jumps out is how he didn’t act this out from his own supposed perspective. Notice how he didn’t cover up his own mouth; rather, he was portraying the situation as if he was the attacker. “Shut the fuck up, motherfucker.” His whole manner of presenting this indicates projection. It’s as if he was telling us what was going on his own mind and attributing it to Martin. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6076 "2012-10-11T14:03:28Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > It’s not speculation. Zimmerman claims that he was attacked. It needs to be proved that he’s lying, and no-one’s done so as yet. The prosecution has to prove that he is lying, not I. The court has to assume he is being truthful unless shown otherwise, not I. As there don’t seem to be any other witnesses to the events prior to the two of them being on the ground, all we can do is speculate. The court will use what evidence is available, as such and the burden of proof for conviction being what it is, I expect Zimmerman to be acquitted. Or perhaps not even get to trial given the wide latitude Florida law allows in self defense. I am ok with this. I understand that we need to err on the side of the innocent. Doesn’t mean I have to believe his story. ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6077 "2012-10-11T14:15:00Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > For good reason. > Beyond a reasonable doubt is an important safeguard for all of us. > Being able to demonstrate that Z was lying is insufficient to convict him or murder 2. That is a good thing. > Changing the standard for conviction from beyond a reasonable doubt, to “I think this is more likely to be true,” is a very, very, very bad idea, imho. From the wikipedia ( [Lies (evidence) - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies_%28evidence%29) )… directions regarding lie as evidence: > [@](#): > > The direction has three parts:[3] > [ul] > [li]The judge should tell the jury that the lie is **only evidence of guilt if they are satisfied it was made deliberately**.[/li][li]The judge should remind the jury that people might lie not because they are guilty but for other reasons (for example, to bolster a weak case, to protect someone, out of panic or to cover up disgraceful behaviour).[/li][li]The judge should tell the jury that the lie alone is insufficient evidence and they should look to see if the other evidence corroborates guilt.[/ul][/li] Martin is dead. Zimmerman never denied shooting Martin. So, a homicide happened. Neither the prosecution or Zimmerman have claimed accidental discharge of the weapon. So, I take that off the table. Physical evidence of the beating that Zimmerman claimed doesn’t seem to be there (e.g. bruising/neck injury in the second day video) - So I personally don’t believe the head smashing story and Zimmerman’s credibility is weak. So, here is where I want to use Zimmerman’s “lie” as evidence of guilt. Zimmerman pulled off a nearly perfect and very clean heart shot, odds of doing that while laying on your back with perpetrator over you smashing your head/face in? What other reasons could cause him to lie? To cover an accidental shooting? Nope, he claims it was self-defense, so I will take him at his word. To hide his shooting skills? To hide his identity as a masked crusader for good? Nope, he was openly captain of the watch. Perhaps he has an insane fear of iced tea and saw the can? So, I’m open to an alternate reason for why he would lie about the circumstances of the altercation. Corroborating evidence: Martin is dead by a very clean heart shot. That an altercation happened is undisputed. Neither side claims Martin came diving out of the bushes and did a running tackle on Zimmerman. Both sides claim there was an initial verbal exchange (over heard on the phone and by W11). So, the disputed information (in my mind) is who was the aggressor in the altercation. How was Zimmerman’s nose bashed, how many times, how was his head scratched, and why are there no bruising or neck injuries 48 hours later on Zimmerman and why are there no injuries beyond a small cut to Martin’s hands. I don’t actually care about the character or either side because confrontations change how people react. What I’m looking at is the physical condition of Zimmerman in that video and based on my belief that his story is not credible, why would he make up such a story. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6078 "2012-10-11T14:17:35Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I don’t think evidence supports the theory that Zimmerman panicked, at least in a fear for one’s life sense of the word. He was calm at the scene and his vitals were normal. The fight lasted long enough that there would have been plenty of time for him to have come to his senses and deescalate the situation if he’d wanted to. Again, lets remember the voice on the tape who was yelling for help at least 40 seconds before the gun went off. A normal person would not panic when hearing that voice. Thugs do not give themselves away by crying out like that. > > Someone afraid of being caught committing a crime might panic, though. This is why I think he was charged with 2nd degree murder rather than manslaughter. At a certain point in the fight, Zimmerman’s motive changed from detaining Martin to permanently silencing him. When he reenacted the fight and he pantomimed how Martin supposedly tried shutting him up, what jumps out is how he didn’t act this out from his own supposed perspective. Notice how he didn’t cover up his own mouth; rather, he was portraying the situation as if he was the attacker. “Shut the fuck up, motherfucker.” His whole manner of presenting this indicates projection. It’s as if he was telling us what was going on his own mind and attributing it to Martin. That’s not enough to convict according to the chorus. Baseless speculation. The facts, the facts… :smack: ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6079 "2012-10-11T14:21:06Z")
> [@Enkel](#): > > From the wikipedia ( [Lies (evidence) - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies_%28evidence%29) )… directions regarding lie as evidence: > Martin is dead. Zimmerman never denied shooting Martin. So, a homicide happened. > > Neither the prosecution or Zimmerman have claimed accidental discharge of the weapon. So, I take that off the table. > > Physical evidence of the beating that Zimmerman claimed doesn’t seem to be there (e.g. bruising/neck injury in the second day video) - So I personally don’t believe the head smashing story and Zimmerman’s credibility is weak. So, here is where I want to use Zimmerman’s “lie” as evidence of guilt. > > Zimmerman pulled off a nearly perfect and very clean heart shot, odds of doing that while laying on your back with perpetrator over you smashing your head/face in? > > What other reasons could cause him to lie? To cover an accidental shooting? Nope, he claims it was self-defense, so I will take him at his word. To hide his shooting skills? To hide his identity as a masked crusader for good? Nope, he was openly captain of the watch. Perhaps he has an insane fear of iced tea and saw the can? So, I’m open to an alternate reason for why he would lie about the circumstances of the altercation. > > Corroborating evidence: Martin is dead by a very clean heart shot. That an altercation happened is undisputed. Neither side claims Martin came diving out of the bushes and did a running tackle on Zimmerman. Both sides claim there was an initial verbal exchange (over heard on the phone and by W11). > > So, the disputed information (in my mind) is who was the aggressor in the altercation. How was Zimmerman’s nose bashed, how many times, how was his head scratched, and why are there no bruising or neck injuries 48 hours later on Zimmerman and why are there no injuries beyond a small cut to Martin’s hands. > > I don’t actually care about the character or either side because confrontations change how people react. What I’m looking at is the physical condition of Zimmerman in that video and based on my belief that his story is not credible, why would he make up such a story. I wish there was a clapping emoticon. Chorus? Where are you? “the facts, the facts…” Baseless… No evidence… ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6080 "2012-10-11T14:28:25Z")
> [@Enkel](#): > > Martin is dead. Zimmerman never denied shooting Martin. So, a homicide happened. > > Neither the prosecution or Zimmerman have claimed accidental discharge of the weapon. So, I take that off the table. > > Physical evidence of the beating that Zimmerman claimed doesn’t seem to be there (e.g. bruising/neck injury in the second day video) - So I personally don’t believe the head smashing story and Zimmerman’s credibility is weak. So, here is where I want to use Zimmerman’s “lie” as evidence of guilt. > > Zimmerman pulled off a nearly perfect and very clean heart shot, odds of doing that while laying on your back with perpetrator over you smashing your head/face in? When your gun is inches away from your opponent, with him sitting on top of you, you shooting with your right hand, the odds of hitting the heart are pretty good. > [@](#): > > What other reasons could cause him to lie? To cover an accidental shooting? Nope, he claims it was self-defense, so I will take him at his word. To hide his shooting skills? To hide his identity as a masked crusader for good? Nope, he was openly captain of the watch. Perhaps he has an insane fear of iced tea and saw the can? So, I’m open to an alternate reason for why he would lie about the circumstances of the altercation. Here’s an alternate reason: he’s not lying. > [@](#): > > So, the disputed information (in my mind) is who was the aggressor in the altercation. How was Zimmerman’s nose bashed, how many times, how was his head scratched, and why are there no bruising or neck injuries 48 hours later on Zimmerman and why are there no injuries beyond a small cut to Martin’s hands. It really takes pretzel logic to conclude that BECAUSE Martin has no injuries, and Zimmerman has a broken nose, lacerations on the head, black eyes etc. that means Zimmerman was the “aggressor”. Zimmerman’s “lies” are supported by the witnesses - that is, they say Martin was on top of Zimmerman. Not one witness corroborates the “Zimmerman as the aggressor” fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6081 "2012-10-11T14:29:36Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > That’s not enough to convict according to the chorus. Say this to yourself: “beyond reasonable doubt”. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2012, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6082 "2012-10-11T14:36:32Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Say this to yourself: “beyond reasonable doubt”. how do you know that what the prosecution presents won’t prove their case “beyond a reasonable doubt”? Is “beyond a reasonable doubt” a fixed standard? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=303) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=305)