# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 308
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2012, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6143 "2012-10-13T04:25:28Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > 1. They always get away. > > 2. (Travyon Martin was fleeing Zimmerman at the time he made this statement). > > So, what conclusions can we reach? > > Maybe Trayvon Martin was the “they”. > > Would it be a stretch of logic to assume that Zimmerman assumed Martin was a burglar? > > Of course not. This is basic logic. what are you talking about? Of course he thought Martin might be a burglar. That’s why he called the police. Martin was standing in the rain on the property of a house that was recently burglarized. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2012, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6144 "2012-10-13T13:12:18Z")
[O’Mara wants to prove that race has no place in Zimmerman’s case.](http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-george-zimmerman-race-fight-fbi-fdle-20121012,0,6973848.story) > [@](#): > > Specifically, O’Mara asked for records from the FBI, the U.S. Department of Justice, the Florida Department of Law Enforcement and local law enforcement agencies that would reveal whether investigators found that Zimmerman was motivated by race or acted to deprive Martin of his civil rights. > > In an unusually long blog post Wednesday, O’Mara wrote that if race is a factor in this case, it’s not because of Zimmerman — **it’s because Sanford police did not make an immediate arrest.** Bolding mine. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2012, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6145 "2012-10-13T14:21:16Z")
I don’t have time to read the article, but is he accusing the SPD of being racist? If he was on the right-winger bandwagon, he would have blamed the EVENTUAL arrest on race politics–those of Sharpton et al. I mean, he’s basically saying the delay in arrest wasn’t due to the apparent lack of probable cause, which is what I had assumed it was. This is a departure from the script! I can’t tell if O’Mara is a good lawyer just speaking the truth, or if he’s a bad lawyer who doesn’t know what he’s supposed to say. Either way, Zimmerman should think about getting a new one. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2012, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6146 "2012-10-13T15:08:33Z")
From the Huffington Post: [Mark O'Mara, George Zimmerman Attorney: Race Is Not The 'Elephant In The Room' In Trayvon Martin Case | HuffPost Voices](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/11/mark-omara-george-zimmerman-attorney-trayvon-martin_n_1958874.html) > [@](#): > > “Let’s forget for a moment that George Zimmerman is Hispanic, not white,” O’Mara wrote. “What Mr. Crump is saying is that race is an issue in the George Zimmerman case because, he insists, that if a black man shot a white person in a similar situation, the black man would have been immediately arrested. This is not an indictment of George Zimmerman; this is fundamentally an accusation that the Sanford Police Department acted in a racist way, and that perhaps the criminal justice system at large is biased against black men.” > > **O’Mara continued, “The truth is that there is credible evidence that black men are overrepresented in the criminal justice system, and that is evidence of an underlying problem.”** > > “ **This is something that needs to be discussed as a nation, and if this case has brought that conversation to the forefront, then now is the time to have that conversation,** ” O’Mara wrote. “Mr. Crump is right in talking about the George Zimmerman case when he says: ‘It shouldn’t be about race.’ But by projecting race onto the George Zimmerman case, Mr. Crump is pinning a supposed civil rights victory on a Zimmerman conviction. The problem is that by associating a Zimmerman conviction with a civil rights victory, Mr. Crump has framed a scenario where a Zimmerman victory in a Self-Defense Immunity Hearing or a Zimmerman acquittal will represent a civil rights defeat. That is inappropriate and dangerous to us as a nation.” In other words, O’Mara is trying to deflect accusations of racial bias against Zimmerman by pointing fingers at the Sanford PD. If I didn’t know any better, I’d think Rev Jackson had blogged this. I hope Zimmerman does not get a new lawyer, because O’Mara is the prosecution’s best friend. ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2012, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6147 "2012-10-13T18:42:37Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Cite for Martin “fleeing” at any point. > > The actual evidence, both witness evidence and the physical evidence, of who was where when, suggest quite strongly otherwise. > > Most importantly, if Martin _had_ been fleeing, he would have got to the house he was staying at in the time Zimmerman was on the phone to the police. > > Would you care to speculate why a person in fear, fleeing, would not go to a nearby safe place, but instead turn around and return to where the person they were fleeing from was? > > My conclusion, of course, is that he wasn’t fleeing. What’s yours? > > Oh, you’re right that Zimmerman assumed Martin was a burglar. That’s why he called the police. You know, like you’re supposed to when you see someone acting suspiciously. The reason for Martin’s running away appeared to be because he saw Zimmerman was on the phone, perhaps reporting him. When Zimmerman allegedly reached for his cellphone, he was attacked. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2012, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6148 "2012-10-13T22:07:20Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I don’t know if anyone remembers, but way back when all this started, I though it was obvious he was guilty of something, quite possibly manslaughter. It’s through looking at the facts that I changed my opinion. Same here. When it first hit the news it was little baby Martin on his way to Disney World when evil Zimmerman gunned him down. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2012, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6149 "2012-10-14T01:31:32Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > From the Huffington Post: [Mark O'Mara, George Zimmerman Attorney: Race Is Not The 'Elephant In The Room' In Trayvon Martin Case | HuffPost Voices](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/11/mark-omara-george-zimmerman-attorney-trayvon-martin_n_1958874.html) > > In other words, O’Mara is trying to deflect accusations of racial bias against Zimmerman by pointing fingers at the Sanford PD. If I didn’t know any better, I’d think Rev Jackson had blogged this. I hope Zimmerman does not get a new lawyer, because O’Mara is the prosecution’s best friend. I hear you **ywtf**. but there are shades of truth in what O’Mara said. I don’t have a problem with him, as he’s doing his job. **Magiver and Steophan,** this is the clearest understanding I have of your opinions now. But my question to you two is this: what \*\*exactly \*\*changed your opinions? Because for me, it was the opposite. At first, I thought not much of it but as more information came out, I became outraged. So then, may I ask the two of you: Do you think Zimmerman can be charged with manslaughter and not second-degree murder? Do you think the prosecution can build up a case for that? Or is it your positions that the prosecution has NOTHING? Also, just on a side note, my hunch is that the medical examiner picked up on something else (besides the gunshot) that also led him to conclude it was a homicide (as written on the autopsy). I could be wrong, but I think so. I think that edema is going to be important. No one is really talking about this, but I think this will come into play. I am REALLY curious about what the Medical Examiner has to say. I am really curious about what ballistics have to say too. My gut is that the bulk of the case rests on those two things (as well as Dee dee’s testimony). I am also theorizing that there was more evidence in those 911 tapes–enhanced audio for example. Carry on 😉 ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2012, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6150 "2012-10-14T01:50:59Z")
I read the autopsy again. I missed yet another piece: [(page 129 of 183 evidence dump)](http://www.scribd.com/doc/93960335/Documents#fullscreen) “The brain weighs 1400 grams and presents moderate congestion of the leptomeninges”. How did Martin get this injury? I completely missed this detail. Also, has Martin’s cell phone been analyzed for blood? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2012, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6151 "2012-10-14T02:31:44Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > I hear you **ywtf**. but there are shades of truth in what O’Mara said. > > I don’t have a problem with him, as he’s doing his job. > > **Magiver and Steophan,** this is the clearest understanding I have of your opinions now. > > But my question to you two is this: what \*\*exactly \*\*changed your opinions? The short answer is that the various pieces of evidence coincide with his account. This doesn’t mean “prove” his account. It means “coincides” with his account. None of it disproves what he says. To understand this one must understand that what he says in any one interview is not to be taken literally. But taken as a group they should be looked at for variations such as “hit” versus “kicked”. This is different than “hit” versus “punched” which are variations of the same thing described with similar words. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2012, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6152 "2012-10-14T02:52:24Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The short answer is that the various pieces of evidence coincide with his account. This doesn’t mean “prove” his account. It means “coincides” with his account. None of it disproves what he says. To understand this one must understand that what he says in any one interview is not to be taken literally. But taken as a group they should be looked at for variations such as “hit” versus “kicked”. This is different than “hit” versus “punched” which are variations of the same thing described with similar words. Ok. I get it. But this is where I disagree with you. Let me ask you a couple questions, and I want an honest answer. What do you make of Martin’s brain injuries? And he DID have brain injuries. I had to read the report again to find the second ME observation. \*\* What is striking me as odd is the following: shouldn’t Zimmerman have been the one with these injuries rather than Martin?\*\* I had to “double back” and reread that statement about the “moderate congestion of the leptomeninges”. I am going to start a thread to see if a medical professional can respond, but I really need some clarification. I am really starting to believe Zimmerman smothered Martin. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2012, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6153 "2012-10-14T03:01:54Z")
Positional Asphyxia ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2012, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6154 "2012-10-14T03:06:00Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Ok. I get it. > > But this is where I disagree with you. > > Let me ask you a couple questions, and I want an honest answer. > > What do you make of Martin’s brain injuries? And he DID have brain injuries. I had to read the report again to find the second ME observation. I answered this before. There are no external head injuries of any kind listed in the autopsy. \*\* > [@betenoire39](#): > > What is striking me as odd is the following: shouldn’t Zimmerman have been the one with these injuries rather than Martin?\*\* Well Zimmerman wasn’t given an autopsy for starters. His injuries didn’t require a medical scan. All his known injuries will be introduced in court as it relates to the case. They will show that he was struck multiple times which is consistent with his previous statements. > [@betenoire39](#): > > I had to “double back” and reread that statement about the “moderate congestion of the leptomeninges”. > > I am going to start a thread to see if a medical professional can respond, but I really need some clarification. > > I am really starting to believe Zimmerman smothered Martin. that sounds like a logical thing to do before you come to another conclusion. I don’t see how he smothered Martin without leaving marks and none were listed in the autopsy. I’m guessing Martin wasn’t breathing too well after he was shot. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2012, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6155 "2012-10-14T03:33:13Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I answered this before. There are no external head injuries of any kind listed in the autopsy. > \*\* > Well Zimmerman wasn’t given an autopsy for starters. His injuries didn’t require a medical scan. All his known injuries will be introduced in court as it relates to the case. They will show that he was struck multiple times which is consistent with his previous statements. > > that sounds like a logical thing to do before you come to another conclusion. I don’t see how he smothered Martin without leaving marks and none were listed in the autopsy. I’m guessing Martin wasn’t breathing too well after he was shot. Magiver, I am trying to be nice and patient with you. Your last statement of “I’m guessing Martin wasn’t breathing too well after he was shot.” is utterly ridiculous. I asked you “What do you make of Martin’s brain injuries?”. You responded "I answered this before. There are no external head injuries of any kind listed in the autopsy. " Your answer makes no sense. I asked specifically about the\*\* BRAIN INJURIES, WHICH WERE CLEARLY LISTED ON THE AUTOPSY. CLEARLY.\*\* Why would you then tell me about no external head injuries? \*\*It doesn’t follow, unless you assume that a brain injury WOULD HAVE to have an external injury associated with it. \*\* I will argue that that does not have to be true. Moderate congestion of the leptomeninges can occur without external marks. [I am going to give you a link..the report will be a little graphic.](http://www.charlydmiller.com/LIB05/2003sep2PAcases.pdf) Please read it thoroughly. It is from\*\* The American Journal of Forensic Medicine and Pathology\*\*. If you read the first couple pages carefully, it talks about law enforcement holds and the injuries that can result–like the one Martin had. This has further swayed my opinion about Zimmerman. That guy MUST be locked up. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2012, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6156 "2012-10-14T04:24:50Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Magiver, I am trying to be nice and patient with you. Well that’s mighty swell of you. > [@betenoire39](#): > > Your last statement of “I’m guessing Martin wasn’t breathing too well after he was shot.” is utterly ridiculous. > [@betenoire39](#): > > I asked you “What do you make of Martin’s brain injuries?”. > > You responded "I answered this before. There are no external head injuries of any kind listed in the autopsy. " > > Your answer makes no sense > > I asked specifically about the\*\* BRAIN INJURIES, WHICH WERE CLEARLY LISTED ON THE AUTOPSY. CLEARLY.\*\* > > Why would you then tell me about no external head injuries? . What it means is that the internal injuries were not likely the result of external injuries. > [@betenoire39](#): > > \*\*It doesn’t follow, unless you assume that a brain injury WOULD HAVE to have an external injury associated with it. \*\* > > I will argue that that does not have to be true. it follows that Zimmerman didn’t create the injury other than the trauma associated with a gunshot at close range. > [@betenoire39](#): > > Moderate congestion of the leptomeninges can occur without external marks. > > [URL=“[http://www.charlydmiller.com/LIB05/2003sep2PAcases.pdf](http://www.charlydmiller.com/LIB05/2003sep2PAcases.pdf)”]I am going to give you a link..the report will be a little graphic.[/URL > Please read it thoroughly. > > It is from\*\* The American Journal of Forensic Medicine and Pathology\*\*. > > If you read the first couple pages carefully, it talks about law enforcement holds and the injuries that can result–like the one Martin had. > > This has further swayed my opinion about Zimmerman. > > That guy MUST be locked up. OK, I read your cite. Where in the autopsy does it mention positional asphyxia? You’ve completely lost me here. I see the case study of involving severe congestion of the leptomeninges and the victim showed external trauma. Don’t you think the autopsy would mention signs of trauma by external sources if this were the case? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2012, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6157 "2012-10-14T04:27:32Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Magiver, I am trying to be nice and patient with you. Well that’s mighty swell of you. > [@betenoire39](#): > > Your last statement of “I’m guessing Martin wasn’t breathing too well after he was shot.” is utterly ridiculous. both his lungs are collapsed. Why would you think he didn’t have difficulty breathing after the damage of the bullet. > [@betenoire39](#): > > I asked you “What do you make of Martin’s brain injuries?”. > > You responded "I answered this before. There are no external head injuries of any kind listed in the autopsy. " > > Your answer makes no sense > > I asked specifically about the\*\* BRAIN INJURIES, WHICH WERE CLEARLY LISTED ON THE AUTOPSY. CLEARLY.\*\* > > Why would you then tell me about no external head injuries? . What it means is that the internal injuries were not likely the result of external injuries. > [@betenoire39](#): > > \*\*It doesn’t follow, unless you assume that a brain injury WOULD HAVE to have an external injury associated with it. \*\* > > I will argue that that does not have to be true. it follows that Zimmerman didn’t create the injury other than the trauma associated with a gunshot at close range. > [@betenoire39](#): > > Moderate congestion of the leptomeninges can occur without external marks. > > [URL=“[http://www.charlydmiller.com/LIB05/2003sep2PAcases.pdf](http://www.charlydmiller.com/LIB05/2003sep2PAcases.pdf)”]I am going to give you a link..the report will be a little graphic.[/URL > Please read it thoroughly. > > It is from\*\* The American Journal of Forensic Medicine and Pathology\*\*. > > If you read the first couple pages carefully, it talks about law enforcement holds and the injuries that can result–like the one Martin had. > > This has further swayed my opinion about Zimmerman. > > That guy MUST be locked up. OK, I read your cite. Where in the autopsy does it mention positional asphyxia? You’ve completely lost me here. I see the case study of involving severe congestion of the leptomeninges and the victim showed external trauma. Don’t you think the autopsy would mention signs of trauma by external sources if this were the case? ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2012, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6158 "2012-10-14T04:45:34Z")
**Magiver** , I think you missed it. Let me quote: “It is clear, therefore, that positional asphyxia can occur in various ways, some of which are better defined and more easily characterized from a pathophysiologic perspective (such as the head-down position), whereas in others, the forced position of the head, neck, or rib cage in restricted spaces can trigger asphyxiating mechanisms (blocking of the respiratory orifices, atypical compression of the neck, com- pression or immobilization of the thorax). These complex situations in which it is difficult, if not impossible, to identify the precise mode of asphyxiation can be included among cases of positional asphyxia in the widest sense of the term. In certain cases, these situations belong to the forensic medicine field: accidents at work, sports accidents, and death by torture or as a result of kidnapping. Often the cause of death in such cases is difficult to diagnose because of the paucity and aspecificity of the anatomic-pathologic findings.” Also: “It is clear, therefore, that positional asphyxia can occur in various ways, some of which are better defined and more easily characterized from a pathophysiologic perspective (such as the head-down position), whereas in others, the forced position of the head, neck, or rib cage in restricted spaces can trigger asphyxiating mechanisms (blocking of the respiratory orifices, atypical compression of the neck, com- pression or immobilization of the thorax). These complex situations in which it is difficult, if not impossible, to identify the precise mode of asphyxiation can be included among cases of positional asphyxia in the widest sense of the term. In certain cases, these situations belong to the forensic medicine field: accidents at work, sports accidents, and death by torture or as a result of kidnapping. Often the cause of death in such cases is difficult to diagnose because of the paucity and aspecificity of the anatomic-pathologic findings.” Now **magiver,** what type of brain injury did both of the case study have? I will let you see what I am implying here. I will wait. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2012, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6159 "2012-10-14T05:05:22Z")
more: There are also other possible causes of asphyxiation: physiologic positions (seated, lying down) when, for extrinsic reasons (placing of the body, limbs being tied) or intrinsic reasons (effect of drugs or alcohol), the position of certain parts of the body (for example, hyperflexion of the neck or trunk) impedes breathing. In this context, attention has been drawn to a coerced prone position with the wrists and ankles tied behind the back (“hog-tied restraint”), a maneuver that was used by the American police force to restrain subjects offering resistance and facilitate their custody and transport.2 ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2012, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6160 "2012-10-14T07:18:29Z")
betenoire39, when do you believe the gunshot happened? Before or after the asphyxiation? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2012, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6161 "2012-10-14T07:44:34Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > **Magiver and Steophan,** this is the clearest understanding I have of your opinions now. > > But my question to you two is this: what \*\*exactly \*\*changed your opinions? A few things. Firstly, a clearer understanding of Florida law, and what is allowed there, and in what circumstances, as it’s fairly unusual. Please note I’m not taking a position in this thread on whether it’s a good law (but that’s a potentially interesting discussion), but I am fully of the opinion that Zimmerman should be judged solely on whether his conduct was in accordance with this law, not with anyone’s personal morality or opinion of what the law should be. Secondly, revelations about Zimmerman’s character, which make it impossible for me to believe that this was a racially inspired killing, which for me utterly discredits all the early reporting and protests. Thirdly, enough of the physical and witness evidence supports Zimmerman’s version of the events to guarantee reasonable doubt that he’s guilty. It’s my opinion more generally that presumption of innocence should be not just a legal standard, but a general standard for living - although there are circumstances that would make that tricky. That’s probably a discussion for another thread. Fourthly, I find it far more plausible that a pissed off teenager would launch an unprovoked attack on someone than that anyone would call the police, then murder someone seconds before they show up. > [@](#): > > Because for me, it was the opposite. At first, I thought not much of it but as more information came out, I became outraged. This gets to the heart of my problem with you, frankly. You are making judgements based on your outrage, not on what actually happened. I consider this whole situation a tragedy. If Martin was an innocent who was murdered, he’s lost his life, and his family have had their lives ruined. Even if he was not and, as I believe, was responsible for the situation, neither he nor his family _deserved_ what happened, and their suffering is not minimised - indeed, the family’s may be greater in this case. Added to that, Zimmerman’s life and his family’s will be, if not ruined, damaged in ways that no innocent’s should. > [@](#): > > So then, may I ask the two of you: Do you think Zimmerman can be charged with manslaughter and not second-degree murder? Do you think the prosecution can build up a case for that? Or is it your positions that the prosecution has NOTHING? I do not believe that the prosecution can prove he committed any crime, based on the evidence available. You are speculating that there will be additional evidence that will prove him guilty. That may be so (although I honestly doubt it), and if it appears I’ll change my view, but until it does, I’ll base my view on what is actually there. > [@](#): > > Also, just on a side note, my hunch is that the medical examiner picked up on something else (besides the gunshot) that also led him to conclude it was a homicide (as written on the autopsy). I could be wrong, but I think so. I think that edema is going to be important. No one is really talking about this, but I think this will come into play. They will have to explain why it isn’t in their report. > [@](#): > > I am REALLY curious about what the Medical Examiner has to say. > > I am really curious about what ballistics have to say too. The reports are in the public domain. Almost all the evidence has to be released - another quirk of Florida law. If they contradict their statements in court, they will have a lot of explaining to do. If they add to them, the defence can legitimately ask why they didn’t put it in the reports at the time, and why their testimony now is more reliable than the reports in the past. These aren’t impossible things to explain, but there’s no way it’ll be the slam dunk you expect. > [@](#): > > My gut is that the bulk of the case rests on those two things (as well as Dee dee’s testimony). My feeling is that DeeDee’s testimony will be, at least in part, inadmissible, and that the fact that she waited several weeks to contact the police, and contacted the Martin family lawyer first, will be used against her by the defence. I consider her testimony to be the least reliable witness statement out there, and I’ll automatically dismiss things like “she heard Zimmerman push Martin” as impossible. > [@](#): > > I am also theorizing that there was more evidence in those 911 tapes–enhanced audio for example. The tapes have been extensively analysed. What do you expect to come up that hasn’t already? [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2012, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6162 "2012-10-14T07:53:14Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Your last statement of “I’m guessing Martin wasn’t breathing too well after he was shot.” is utterly ridiculous. What’s ridiculous about thinking someone shot through the lungs wouldn’t be breathing well? It seems a reasonable assumption to me. > [@](#): > > I asked you “What do you make of Martin’s brain injuries?”. > > You responded "I answered this before. There are no external head injuries of any kind listed in the autopsy. " > > Your answer makes no sense. > > I asked specifically about the\*\* BRAIN INJURIES, WHICH WERE CLEARLY LISTED ON THE AUTOPSY. CLEARLY.\*\* > > Why would you then tell me about no external head injuries? > > \*\*It doesn’t follow, unless you assume that a brain injury WOULD HAVE to have an external injury associated with it. \*\* The existence of those injuries is not proof that Zimmerman caused them. Without external injuries that could have caused the brain injuries, there’s no way to know whether Zimmerman caused them. > [@](#): > > I will argue that that does not have to be true. > > Moderate congestion of the leptomeninges can occur without external marks. Ah, reasonable doubt. If anyone were trying to prove that Zimmerman absolutely could not have caused these injuries, you’d have done a grand job of helping them. However, it’s irrelevant. > [@](#): > > If you read the first couple pages carefully, it talks about law enforcement holds and the injuries that can result–like the one Martin had. What evidence is there that Zimmerman used such a hold on Martin? > [@](#): > > This has further swayed my opinion about Zimmerman. > > That guy MUST be locked up. Nonsense. You have added no evidence that Zimmerman did anything to Martin. All you’ve done is say that, if something happened for which we have no evidence, these brain injuries could occur. Show that the injuries could not result from the shooting, and that Zimmerman acted in a way to cause them, \*and \*that said action was not in reasonable self defence, and you’d have the beginnings of a case. You’ve, as yet, done none of those things. That it’s _possible_ these things occurred doesn’t make it _certain_ that they did - another fallacy you and others who want Zimmerman locked up keep making - and you may not convict him unless things are certain (to the standard of beyond reasonable doubt). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=307) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=309)