# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 31
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/601 "2012-04-23T00:31:33Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Of course. > > So what did the troubled student do then, anyway? Not a student anymore. He was kicked out due to concern for the safety of others. ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/602 "2012-04-23T00:37:10Z")
That’s quite a bit of speculation there. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/603 "2012-04-23T00:41:45Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Can you take the safety off a gun with one hand? If not, then does this mean that either 1) Zimmerman had to have taken the safety off early in the confrontation or 2) both hands were free? > > If he was able to get both hands free, why wouldn’t Zimmerman just push Martin off of him? Or roll over? Yes, you can take a safety off with one hand. And if we don’t know the gun model, we don’t even know if it had a safety. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/604 "2012-04-23T00:46:30Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Are you still playing the role of the dispassionate and objective voice of reason? I think your slip is showing. Unless your sense of humor is thoroughly whooshing me. That was intended to be a joke. I was ironically pointing out the downside of “let others have the same freedom.” I am not seriously proposing that anyone should refer to Martin as a troubled student. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/605 "2012-04-23T00:47:23Z")
> [@sugaree](#): > > But if Martin was straddling Zimmerman facing his head, how could he see the gun at Zimmerman’s waist? And if Martin’s knees were on Zimmerman’s arms, how could Zimmerman get out his gun and point it Martin’s chest? > > I’m really open to the idea that it all went down exactly the way Zimmerman described, but the logistics are not making any sense to me. I would like to know the fight sequence myself. To answer your question I always imagined Martin pinning Zimmerman’s arms or arm with his knees and then wailing on him. The person on the top has the advantage without much risk of getting a return punch to the head. If the person on the ground has one arm free it’s going to be used to protect his face. The person on the bottom is going to try to wiggle Since Martin’s body was found partially on the sidewalk it puts the fight at or near the sidewalk which fits into Z’s story that his head was pounded into the cement. The eye witness said it looked like they were on the grass so the combination of the info plus the wet shirt back puts the fight at the edge of the sidewalk with Z’s head on the sidewalk. At some point (obviously the end of the fight) Zimmerman is able to free up his gun. > [@sugaree](#): > > I read that Martin had not played football since he aged out of Pop Warner, and that he did not play at his high school. Not one hundred percent sure of that though. that certainly suggests where Martin is in relation to the stamina needed for the approximately 1 minute long fight. My perception of him changed when I saw the older pictures of him. He was a lot bigger than originally portrayed. > [@sugaree](#): > > And you know, I feel like it should be said every couple of pages on every debate on every Internet forum talking about this: whoever wins a fight has nothing to do with who starts a fight. This is so true. If only the lady who heard the argument could have told us what was said and saw who swung first. It would be the missing link of information. All we know from her is that she thinks the older man was the louder of the 2. If it was the conversation that Martin’s girlfriend recounted it was short and confrontational on both sides. ---
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/606 "2012-04-23T00:50:00Z")
> [@sugaree](#): > > That’s quite a bit of speculation there. I was talking about Zimmerman. [Redirect Notice](http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/23/trayvon-martin-shooting-g_n_1375357.html&sa=U&ei=caeUT8TGJ8bZ0QHvro3nBw&ved=0CCQQFjAC&usg=AFQjCNEqB0FSEiYrWaUmyDbgH6JTWGHyhg) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/607 "2012-04-23T00:56:34Z")
> [@enomaj](#): > > Not a student anymore. He was kicked out due to concern for the safety of others. are we talking about Martin? I thought his most recent suspension was for an empty weed bag? question answered ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/608 "2012-04-23T01:28:50Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Zimmerman believing he was in mortal danger is not the beginning and end of the story. I agree. I’ve only stated that his storyline does not have any holes in it as of now with what we know. That can change quite easily but that information is not available. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/609 "2012-04-23T01:34:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, you can take a safety off with one hand. And if we don’t know the gun model, we don’t even know if it had a safety. We do and it didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/610 "2012-04-23T02:23:16Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I agree. I’ve only stated that his storyline does not have any holes in it as of now with what we know. That can change quite easily but that information is not available. Well, yeah, it does, but I intend to show that on the stand… ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/611 "2012-04-23T03:04:24Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > that’s not how it’s being used in this discussion. Nobody is addressing anyone in the first person pronoun. “Boy” is correct. “Teenager” is correct. “Young man” is correct. None of these would be used in the first person because it wouldn’t make sense unless you’re old and addressed someone as “young man”. Okay fine. Let me change it to third person. You are standing watching a group of teenage black male basketball players and you comment to one of their parents, “Those boys are playing well.”. You don’t think he might be offended? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/612 "2012-04-23T03:14:19Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Okay fine. Let me change it to third person. > > You are standing watching a group of teenage black male basketball players and you comment to one of their parents, “Those boys are playing well.”. You don’t think he might be offended? Not even the teensiest, tiniest, most miniscule microscopic bit. And if by chance he was, seeing as how humans come in every flavor? He’s a fucking tool. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/613 "2012-04-23T03:40:03Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > He was a teenager. He was a minor child. He was a boy. He was a young man. He was a youth. The English language offers a multitude of options. Pick one and leave others to the same freedom. > > Since you’re all het up about responsibility, do you think Martin was just as much of a “responsible” person as Zimmerman? Do you think a typical 17-year-old knows how to stay calm and collected under a stressful situation in the same manner that a typical 28-year-old does? > > If you saw the two guys wrestling in the yard, would you think they were equally stupid or would you think one–by virtue of his age–was considerably more stupid than the other? Frankly, when I was 17 I was a lot more responsible than either one of them. The wrestling pair can’t be judged until I knew who was the aggressor. What I resent is the attempts to treat Martin like a child who has 0% responsibility for his actions and Zimmerman has 100%. There are people who saying that it was Zimmerman’s fault even if Martin struck the first blow. Even a 17 year old with serious anger management issues could have punched Zimmerman in the face and turned around and walked away with his honor satisfied. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/614 "2012-04-23T04:08:19Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I have a hard time picturing this too. It just seems convoluted. His arms are pinned but eventually somehow he frees at least one, okay. But how does he crook his arm all the way up and over so he can shoot Martin in the chest? That would require his shoulder to be able to fully rotate. Can’t see how that would be possible, if Martin was straddling his whole upper body. You are assuming that the gun was fired horizontally into Martin chest. We need the coroner’s report to actually find out the bullet trajectory. You are also forgetting that Martin was 6 inches taller than Zimmerman. His chest would have been closer to Zimmerman’s midsection even if we assume they were face to face, which we don’t know either. I also haven’t heard any reports of exit wounds, which makes me think the bullet might have taken a longer route from right to left through Martin’s chest. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/615 "2012-04-23T04:11:05Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Frankly, when I was 17 I was a lot more responsible than either one of them. The wrestling pair can’t be judged until I knew who was the aggressor. > > What I resent is the attempts to treat Martin like a child who has 0% responsibility for his actions and Zimmerman has 100%. There are people who saying that it was Zimmerman’s fault even if Martin struck the first blow. Even a 17 year old with serious anger management issues could have punched Zimmerman in the face and turned around and walked away with his honor satisfied. Gee, now you know why so many people find Zimmerman’s tale hard to believe. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/616 "2012-04-23T04:48:50Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, you can take a safety off with one hand. And if we don’t know the gun model, we don’t even know if it had a safety. The firearm was a Kel-Tec PF-9. I haven’t taken any interest in firearms since the early nineties, but I read a couple of articles. It doesn’t have an external safety. I don’t like that myself. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/617 "2012-04-23T05:11:32Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > Gee, now you know why so many people find Zimmerman’s tale hard to believe. Since Zimmerman didn’t shoot Martin in the back, that means that Martin kept fighting after he punched Zimmerman. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/618 "2012-04-23T05:29:14Z")
[http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/23/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/23/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html) Looks like he had a bodyguard. I wonder how hard it is to hack the GPS tracking device and figure out where Zimmerman is? ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/619 "2012-04-23T05:33:26Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Since Zimmerman didn’t shoot Martin in the back, that means that Martin kept fighting after he punched Zimmerman. Well, that’s where everyone parts ways in these threads. I believe Zimmerman tried to detain Martin and it backfired on him. I find that to be logical. Apparently, you believe that Zimmerman asked him to account for his presence and Martin went beserk and tried to beat him to death. For no real reason. I find that less likely. And so it goes… ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/620 "2012-04-23T06:00:38Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Since Zimmerman didn’t shoot Martin in the back, that means that Martin kept fighting after he punched Zimmerman. Wow.. the bizarre “A = B” that has been going on around this situation never stops blowing my mind. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=30) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=32)