# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 312
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2012, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6223 "2012-10-17T23:53:43Z")
[I never saw this from the witnesses before.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cw2yqB5B4o&feature=related) Wow. Also, I was thinking if Martin covered Zimmerman’s mouth, wouldn’t there have been some saliva or the blood from Zimmerman’s broken nose on it? Chorus? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6224 "2012-10-18T00:29:08Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > [I never saw this from the witnesses before.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cw2yqB5B4o&feature=related) > > Wow. Mary Cutcher’s “evidence” has changed so many times even she doesn’t know what it is anymore. For example, she called the police right after the shot and told them that the black man was standing over another man. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6225 "2012-10-18T01:32:45Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > [I never saw this from the witnesses before.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cw2yqB5B4o&feature=related) > > Wow. > > Also, I was thinking if Martin covered Zimmerman’s mouth, wouldn’t there have been some saliva or the blood from Zimmerman’s broken nose on it? > > Chorus? Wow what? She didn’t witness the fight and her video picks up and correlates with Zimmerman’s account. We discussed the DNA potential before. You’re back to your DNA under the fingernail argument. Unless Zimmerman’s mouth was open or his nose was bleeding at the time the answer would be no. What you end up with is one person with no marks on his body and one with marks on his body consistent with an assault. You keep ignoring this on your quest to prove something you believe to be true instead of working backwards from evidence to arrive at a conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6226 "2012-10-18T01:35:29Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Because IMO Martin “attacked” Zimmerman in self-defense. This does not correlate with the information we know about. The fight begins near the top of the sidewalk T. How does Martin come to be there when the phone call to the police indicates Zimmerman did not see him and the phone call to Dee Dee indicates Martin is by his house. He tells her this. All the evidence suggests Martin came to Zimmerman and that is consistent with Zimmerman’s account. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6227 "2012-10-18T01:53:58Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > I was looking at some Florida self-defense jury instructions. > > I read that the jury can take into account the physical abilities and capacities of the victim and defendant. > > I don’t see how this favors Zimmerman, considering he was a former bouncer, had a 50 pound weight advantage and had a gun on his person at the time. Martin was 5’ 11" and weighed 158 lbs. Zimmerman weighed in at 200 lbs and was probably wearing clothes when weighed so he was closer to 35 lbs heavier (42 lb maximum differential). The gun in immaterial to Zimmerman’s physical abilities so I’m not sure why you added it into this line of thought. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6228 "2012-10-18T02:33:09Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Martin was 5’ 11" and weighed 158 lbs. Zimmerman weighed in at 200 lbs and was probably wearing clothes when weighed so he was closer to 35 lbs heavier (42 lb maximum differential). > > The gun in immaterial to Zimmerman’s physical abilities so I’m not sure why you added it into this line of thought. can you respond to the essence of my point? I am sorry if I am off by 8 lbs. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6229 "2012-10-18T02:37:57Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > This does not correlate with the information we know about. The fight begins near the top of the sidewalk T. How does Martin come to be there when the phone call to the police indicates Zimmerman did not see him and the phone call to Dee Dee indicates Martin is by his house. He tells her this. > > All the evidence suggests Martin came to Zimmerman and that is consistent with Zimmerman’s account. Yeah, so he began his ‘attack’ on Martin while he was on the phone? And how “close” to his house? I could be a 6 minute walk away from my house say that I am close to it–I have said this over the phone, actually. Your point? For all you know, Martin could have been hiding and thought the coast was clear and Zimmerman came out of nowhere. Of course, you’ll say Im speculating. Just so you know, SO ARE YOU. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6230 "2012-10-18T02:41:24Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Wow what? She didn’t witness the fight and her video picks up and correlates with Zimmerman’s account. > > We discussed the DNA potential before. **You’re back to your DNA under the fingernail argument.** Unless Zimmerman’s mouth was open or his nose was bleeding at the time the answer would be no. > > What you end up with is one person with no marks on his body and one with marks on his body consistent with an assault. You keep ignoring this on your quest to prove something you believe to be true instead of working backwards from evidence to arrive at a conclusion. No, I am back to the **blood and/or DNA ANYWHERE ON MARTIN’S BODY** argument. Ok, so he punched Zimmerman, pounded his head on the pavement and put his hand over his mouth. The nose began to bleed after the scuffle, Zimmerman has his mouth closed (HOW THE HELL COULD HE HAVE BEEN SCREAMING THEN???) all the while Martin “pounded his head into the pavement”. Yeah, sure **magiver.** Magiver, I hope you’re joking now. Pretty please. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6231 "2012-10-18T02:49:01Z")
Magiver, place your hand over your mouth. try to talk. Look at your hand. Do you see saliva? A little??? I also find it amazing that if Zimmerman got his nose punched so early in the altercation, it only started bleeding after the altercation ended. Very convenient. Very. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6232 "2012-10-18T02:59:19Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The gun in immaterial to Zimmerman’s physical abilities so I’m not sure why you added it into this line of thought. Magiver, I wrote physical abilities and CAPACITIES (that’s what I got from the jury instructions). Yes, Zimmerman had the gun from the moment he trailed Martin, and always had the capacity to shoot him (even though he was ‘legally carrying it’). ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6233 "2012-10-18T03:01:09Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > can you respond to the essence of my point? I am sorry if I am off by 8 lbs. actually you’re off by more than 8 lbs. It’s impossible to tell what the essence of your points are because you tend to throw a handful out at a time. at 5’ 11" and 158 lbs Martin was more than capable of dropping someone with the first punch. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6234 "2012-10-18T03:03:59Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > actually you’re off by more than 8 lbs. > > It’s impossible to tell what the essence of your points are because you tend to throw a handful out at a time. > > at 5’ 11" and 158 lbs Martin was more than capable of dropping someone with the first punch. Yeah and the bouncer with a gun was more than capable of shooting him. I do throw a handful LOL, but in this case I was talking about the size difference. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6235 "2012-10-18T03:19:40Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > No, I am back to the **blood and/or DNA ANYWHERE ON MARTIN’S BODY** argument. > > Ok, so he punched Zimmerman, pounded his head on the pavement and put his hand over his mouth. > > The nose began to bleed after the scuffle, Zimmerman has his mouth closed (HOW THE HELL COULD HE HAVE BEEN SCREAMING THEN???) all the while Martin “pounded his head into the pavement”. he wouldn’t be screaming with his mouth covered. What’s your point? Zimmerman never claimed Martin held his mouth closed the whole time. He said it occurred during the assault along with getting punched and getting his head slammed. I’m sure his nose did begin to bleed after the scuffle. Martin was dead by then. > [@betenoire39](#): > > Yeah, sure **magiver.** > > Magiver, I hope you’re joking now. > > Pretty please. This kind of exchange doesn’t help your case. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6236 "2012-10-18T03:22:50Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Magiver, > > I wrote physical abilities and CAPACITIES (that’s what I got from the jury instructions). > > Yes, Zimmerman had the gun from the moment he trailed Martin, and always had the capacity to shoot him (even though he was ‘legally carrying it’). OK… so? what does his possession of the gun mean in relation to the jury? He had the capacity to shoot him at the outset and didn’t? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6237 "2012-10-18T03:31:04Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > OK… so? what does his possession of the gun mean in relation to the jury? He had the capacity to shoot him at the outset and didn’t? Magiver, it just proves how diabolically clever Zimmerman is. You see, that night he set out to kill a black guy, saw Martin, decided that he was the guy he wanted to kill, made Martin fear him, then made Martin attack him, then made Martin beat him up, and only then, after about a minute of being pummeled, after deciding that his injuries were sufficient for his defense, he shot him. Unfortunately only a few people are smart enough to see through this ruse. But never fear, we have one right on this thread. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6238 "2012-10-18T12:55:10Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Magiver, it just proves how diabolically clever Zimmerman is. You see, that night he set out to kill a black guy, saw Martin, decided that he was the guy he wanted to kill, made Martin fear him, then made Martin attack him, then made Martin beat him up, and only then, after about a minute of being pummeled, after deciding that his injuries were sufficient for his defense, he shot him. > > Unfortunately only a few people are smart enough to see through this ruse. But never fear, we have one right on this thread. Brilliant analysis. Brilliant. Diabolically clever indeed. Glad you’ve finally come around. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6239 "2012-10-18T14:36:39Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > I was looking at some Florida self-defense jury instructions. > > I read that the jury can take into account the physical abilities and capacities of the victim and defendant. > > I don’t see how this favors Zimmerman, considering he was a former bouncer, had a 50 pound weight advantage and had a gun on his person at the time. > > More food for thought… > > But then again Travyon was a “No limit nigg\*” and possessed superhuman speed and strength. > Also, was reaching for his gun the first thing Zimmerman wanted to do when he supposedly was being beaten (rather then getting Martin off him or even punching him back)? > > My instinct is to fight back with my hands. Considering Martin’s head start, Zimmerman could never have caught him, if he had kept running. Fifty pounds of suet on a fived seven inch man is not much good in a fight. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6240 "2012-10-18T14:51:34Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > Considering Martin’s head start, Zimmerman could never have caught him, if he had kept running. Fifty pounds of suet on a fived seven inch man is not much good in a fight. You’re making assumptions that I am going to make explicit. You’re assuming Zimmerman met Martin where he said he did. You’re assuming Zimmerman got out of his truck where and when he said he did. Also, how do you know Martin didn’t hide from Zimmerman? People act like this was implausible, but why would you think everyone would want to lead a stalker to where they live? ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6241 "2012-10-18T15:24:30Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > he wouldn’t be screaming with his mouth covered. What’s your point? Zimmerman never claimed Martin held his mouth closed the whole time. He said it occurred during the assault along with getting punched and getting his head slammed. > \*\* > I’m sure his nose did begin to bleed after the scuffle. Martin was dead by then. \*\* > > This kind of exchange doesn’t help your case. :dubious: Magiver, place your hand over your mouth. try to talk. Look at your hand. Do you see saliva? A little??? I also find it amazing that if Zimmerman got his nose punched so early in the altercation, it only started bleeding after the altercation ended. Very convenient. Very. To use your quote: " You keep ignoring this on your quest to prove something you believe to be true instead of working backwards from evidence to arrive at a conclusion." ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6242 "2012-10-18T16:27:51Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > You’re making assumptions that I am going to make explicit. > > You’re assuming Zimmerman met Martin where he said he did. > > You’re assuming Zimmerman got out of his truck where and when he said he did. > > Also, how do you know Martin didn’t hide from Zimmerman? > > People act like this was implausible, but why would you think everyone would want to lead a stalker to where they live? Wjhy not just leave the townhouse develeopment instead of hiding? It’s not a locked prison. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=311) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=313)