# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 313
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6243 "2012-10-18T17:23:01Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > Wjhy not just leave the townhouse develeopment instead of hiding? It’s not a locked prison. Why not stay the hell in your car and leave the boy alone? Why not let the police respond? Why pursue with a loaded gun? Why put yourself in that position? It’s all about Martin and his supposed actions: why didn’t he do this, why didn’t he do that…lalalala. Never anything about Zimmerman or his actions. Nothing. Oh wait, they’re legal. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6244 "2012-10-18T17:24:13Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > Wjhy not just leave the townhouse develeopment instead of hiding? It’s not a locked prison. When Zimmerman got out of his truck is caught on the dispatcher call. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6245 "2012-10-18T17:32:25Z")
Despite what many are saying, a jury will be considering these things, especially now that I have read jury instructions on self-defense killings. All of this ‘at the moment’ nonsense is really getting tired. They will look at Zimmerman’s actions and their contribution to the killing. They will look at the physical and weapon advantage Zimmerman had. They will look at the forensic evidence. They will look at the lack of blood and DNA on Martin. Everything is trying to prove that Martin “doubled back”, because that’s the only thing Zimmerman really has, and the reality is that there are other explanations of how they encountered each other which have nothing to do with Martin “doubling back”. Remember, Zimmerman had a truck. It’s easy to close the distance from a truck. The slowest car is faster than Usain Bolt. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6246 "2012-10-18T17:53:48Z")
Listening to those eyewitnesses describe Zimmerman’s behavior after the shooting is also going to disturb a jury. This is was the first time I heard those two women speak, actually. Guys, all roads point to Zimmerman not really fearing ANYTHING that night. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6247 "2012-10-18T18:30:09Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > Wjhy not just leave the townhouse develeopment instead of hiding? It’s not a locked prison. Let me play your game for a second. Let’s say Martin does leave the complex. Where would he have gone afterwards? At which time should he have done so? Wouldn’t that have put him near Zimmerman again? I guess you are assuming that Zimmerman would have broken off his pursuit, correct? Also, why would it be Martin’s responsibility to leave the complex? Again, just playing your game. can you answer these questions please? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6248 "2012-10-18T19:09:07Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Why not stay the hell in your car and leave the boy alone? > > Why not let the police respond? > > Why pursue with a loaded gun? > > Why put yourself in that position? > > It’s all about Martin and his supposed actions: why didn’t he do this, why didn’t he do that…lalalala. > > Never anything about Zimmerman or his actions. > > Nothing. > > Oh wait, they’re legal. :smack: Yes – and that’s a key component for the jury to consider, right? The jury has to hear evidence that disproves self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6249 "2012-10-18T20:23:52Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Let me play your game for a second. > > Let’s say Martin does leave the complex. Where would he have gone afterwards? If it was me and I didn’t want to lead the “stalker” back to the house, I would have beat feet back to the store. Just sayin’. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6250 "2012-10-18T20:32:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes – and that’s a key component for the jury to consider, right? > > **The jury has to hear evidence that disproves self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt. Right?** Sure, Bricker (not sarcastic). I think they will get that. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6251 "2012-10-18T20:36:52Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > If it was me and I didn’t want to lead the “stalker” back to the house, I would have beat feet back to the store. > > Just sayin’. Ok then. I will still play the game. How long would that have taken Martin? Again, wouldn’t that have put Martin near Zimmerman? And using the racial characterizations of Martin from some posters **in this same thread** , why would people at the store believe that some 6 foot 3 black kid would have been running away from someone? Don’t people like that have no fear? Afterall, he was a “NO Limit Nigg\* with a hair trigga temper” (as said by a poster here). Would they have helped him? Are we to assume that Zimmerman would have broken off his pursuit? (oh wait, according to some posters, Zimmerman wasn’t pursuing him :smack:). ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6252 "2012-10-18T20:43:17Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > You’re making assumptions that I am going to make explicit. > > You’re assuming Zimmerman met Martin where he said he did. it’s an assumption based on evidence. We know where he dropped his flashlight. > [@betenoire39](#): > > You’re assuming Zimmerman got out of his truck where and when he said he did. We have a very precise record of the time it occurred based on the call to the police dispatcher. > [@betenoire39](#): > > Also, how do you know Martin didn’t hide from Zimmerman? Because Martin told his girlfriend he was next to his house. If he was hiding then he would have had to come out and approach Zimmerman on the sidewalk. > [@betenoire39](#): > > People act like this was implausible, but why would you think everyone would want to lead a stalker to where they live? He had lots of choices to make. He could have left the area entirely given his head start. He could have called the police and reported a suspicious person following him. They would have explained the situation to him. He could have stayed hidden. He could have knocked on a front door and asked for assistance. All of that would have been legal and prudent. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6253 "2012-10-18T20:47:10Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > \*\* He had lots of choices to make. \*\* He could have left the area entirely given his head start. He could have called the police and reported a suspicious person following him. They would have explained the situation to him. He could have stayed hidden. He could have knocked on a front door and asked for assistance. All of that would have been legal and prudent. So did Zimmerman. **SO DID ZIMMERMAN.** Unbelievable. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6254 "2012-10-18T20:51:38Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Ok then. > > I will still play the game. > > How long would that have taken Martin? > > Again, wouldn’t that have put Martin near Zimmerman? not unless he’s retarded. He has infinite directions he can head that lead away from Zimmerman. It doesn’t have to be the store he came from. > [@betenoire39](#): > > And using the racial characterizations of Martin from some posters **in this same thread** , why would people at the store believe that some 6 foot 3 black kid would have been running away from someone? Don’t people like that have no fear? Afterall, he was a “NO Limit Nigg\* with a hair trigga temper” (as said by a poster here). > > Would they have helped him? He’s 5’ 11". Is it that difficult to keep track of the basics? It wouldn’t matter if the people in the store believed Martin of anything. He’s in a public place where he can the meet the police he should have called in the first place if he thought he was in danger. > [@betenoire39](#): > > Are we to assume that Zimmerman would have broken off his pursuit? (oh wait, according to some posters, Zimmerman wasn’t pursuing him :smack:). We don’t have to assume anything. Zimmerman already broke off pursuit. We heard him agree to this with the dispatcher on the phone and we heard his breathing change in direct response to it. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6255 "2012-10-18T20:53:29Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Why not stay the hell in your car and leave the boy alone? Because he was the neighborhood watch guy, and there had been several burglaries in the area. > [@](#): > > Why not let the police respond? He already called the police, and they were on the way. > [@](#): > > Why pursue with a loaded gun? In case he tries to kill you. > [@](#): > > Why put yourself in that position? Because he was the neighborhood watch guy, and there had been several burglaries in the area. > [@](#): > > Never anything about Zimmerman or his actions. > > Nothing. > > Oh wait, they’re legal. :smack: Yes, that’s correct. They are legal, and do not justify Martin’s attack. Do you believe that someone who has not broken the law should be convicted of a crime? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6256 "2012-10-18T20:54:27Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > So did Zimmerman. > > **SO DID ZIMMERMAN.** > Unbelievable. Zimmerman’s choices were sound and legal. He had already stopped a burglary in progress a few weeks before. Keeping Martin in sight for the police to investigate was a good thing. Martin on the other hand was at home because of a school suspension. He brutally attacked Zimmerman and that behavior is unbelievable. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6257 "2012-10-18T20:54:31Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Sure, Bricker (not sarcastic). > > I think they will get that. None of the things you are arguing about affect proving he wasn’t acting in self defence, they affect not being able to prove he was. I’m still not sure you understand the difference. The latter will come into play in the pre-trial hearing, commonly but inaccurately referred to as the Stand Your Ground hearing, and the former at trial, should the case go to trial. The standard of proof at the hearing is lower than at trial, where it is beyond reasonable doubt, but I can’t remember exactly what it is. I remember when we discussed it way upthread I was of the opinion that Zimmerman would struggle to meet it, and that the case would go to trial, and I’ve seen nothing so far to change that opinion. I’ve also seen nothing to change my opinion that the prosecution will struggle to meet _their_ burden, and that he will walk. So, if you disagree, please show the evidence that shows, beyond reasonable doubt, that Zimmerman did not act in self defence. That is, evidence that shows that there are no plausible explanations for what happened that evening that do not involve Zimmerman murdering Martin. You’ve been asked repeatedly to do that in this thread, when I and others have come up with scenarios that we find plausible, and all you’ve been able to do is say they are not certain. That is insufficient, and if that’s all the prosecution can do, Zimmerman must be found not guilty. In short, showing that it is not certain that Zimmerman did not murder Martin is not sufficient to show that it’s certain he did. Do you understand this distinction? That’s not a sarcastic question, it’s serious, and vitally important to understanding how this will play out at trial. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6258 "2012-10-18T20:56:16Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > not unless he’s retarded. **He has infinite directions he can head that lead away from Zimmerman. It doesn’t have to be the store he came from.** > > He’s 5’ 11". Is it that difficult to keep track of the basics? It wouldn’t matter if the people in the store believed Martin of anything. He’s in a public place where he can the meet the police he should have called in the first place if he thought he was in danger. > We don’t have to assume anything. Zimmerman already broke off pursuit. We heard him agree to this with the dispatcher on the phone and we heard his breathing change in direct response to it. I am speechless… Why are people dictating how Martin should have reacted? Who are you to make these determinations? And again, why is there a lack of analysis of Zimmerman’s actions? ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6259 "2012-10-18T21:00:45Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Zimmerman’s choices were sound and legal. He had already stopped a burglary in progress a few weeks before. Keeping Martin in sight for the police to investigate was a good thing. > > Martin on the other hand was at home because of a school suspension. He brutally attacked Zimmerman and that behavior is unbelievable. Sound? So you’re saying it was okay for Zimmerman to profile Martin because of crimes that Martin had nothing to do with? It’s not about “keeping Martin in sight”…it’s about the entirety of actions he did that led to Martin’s death. What the hell does his school suspension have to do with this? “Brutally attacked Zimmerman”…HA! Crystal clear who I am dealing with here… ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6260 "2012-10-18T21:02:37Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > So did Zimmerman. > > **SO DID ZIMMERMAN.** > Unbelievable. Indeed. He chose to call the police when he saw suspicious behaviour (which is laudable), he chose to follow the suspect (which is stupid, but not in anyway illegal or immoral), he chose to ask the suspect what he was doing (which again is stupid but not wrong), and he chose to carry a gun to protect himself (which, as it turned out, was an extremely sensible choice). Oh, and he chose to use that weapon to defend himself. An act that is specifically provided for in Florida law. He was allowed to defend himself. If, of course, it turns out that the force he used was excessive (by the standards of Florida law), he may be punished for it, but frankly any law that forbids someone from defending themselves from being punched in the face and having their head bashed on concrete is fucking stupid. So yes, some of Zimmerman’s choices were bad. He suffered because of them, getting a severe beating and, quite possibly, having his life screwed up. Martin made some stupid, _illegal_ choices, and it cost him his life. Sucks for both of them, but Zimmerman should not be made to suffer more. I think there’s too many idiots out there who understand neither the law nor the actual events that occurred for that to be a possibility. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6261 "2012-10-18T21:05:01Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Sound? So you’re saying it was okay for Zimmerman to profile Martin because of crimes that Martin had nothing to do with? It was perfectly acceptable for him to call the police when he saw suspicious behaviour. Indeed, more that acceptable, it’s laudable. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6262 "2012-10-18T21:08:23Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Sucks for both of them, but Zimmerman should not be made to suffer more. I think there’s too many idiots out there who understand neither the law nor the actual events that occurred for that to be a possibility. Utter bull and a non-sequitur. “sucks for both of them”?? Martin is dead. How the hell can Zimmerman “suffer more”? How can you say that they are equivalent? Sir, you need to check your moral compass. You’re trying to define the events…you’re pushing YOUR interpretations here. Why would you link that to “suffering”? ywtf nailed it earlier. How immoral. You have some nerve calling people idiots. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=312) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=314)