# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 32
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/621 "2012-04-23T06:39:53Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > … Zimmerman asked him to account for his presence and Martin went beserk and tried to beat him to death. For no real reason… “I’m gonna beat the shit out of that fucker who’s following me. Teach him not to follow _me!_” Plausible reason, doesn’t require any intent to “beat him to death”, not beyond belief for a 17 yo teenager to think of, and doesn’t contradict any of the known facts (so far). I’m not saying I buy it, I think Zimmerman trying to illegally restrain him is somewhat more likely, but unless the prosecution can eliminate it (with actual evidence) as a reasonable possibility, Zimmerman’s got a reasonable chance of walking. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/622 "2012-04-23T11:06:58Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > I’m not saying I buy it, I think Zimmerman trying to illegally restrain him is somewhat more likely, but unless the prosecution can eliminate it (with actual evidence) as a reasonable possibility, Zimmerman’s got a reasonable chance of walking. And what, exactly, would make this so hard to do? At least relative to any other murder trial? Defendants are notorious at trying to sell us on alternative theories, some much more plausible than this one. What parts of Zimmerman’s story are so much more compelling that the average murder defendant? Maybe I’m missing something, but I see nothing special about this case in terms of evidence that warrants an inordinate amount of hand wringing about the odds of a conviction. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/623 "2012-04-23T12:00:32Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Wow.. the bizarre “A = B” that has been going on around this situation never stops blowing my mind. You really need to explain why you think an everyday occurrence like someone getting mad and trying to beat someone up is ‘bizzare’ . I don’t think the word means what you think it does. Claiming that something is ‘bizarre’ or ‘absurd’ or ‘ridiculous’ is not a rebuttal. All you are really saying is that you have a preformed view of events and you refuse to consider anything that doesn’t accommodate your prejudices. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/624 "2012-04-23T12:15:32Z")
> [@sugaree](#): > > And you know, I feel like it should be said every couple of pages on every debate on every Internet forum talking about this: whoever wins a fight has nothing to do with who starts a fight. My experience is just the opposite. The person who makes the first attack has the advantage. If he can maintain that advantage, he wins the fight. If Zimmerman’s story is true, such was the case here. Martin landed the first punch, knocked Zimmerman down, and jumped on him and started pounding his head against the ground, all without Zimmerman being able to get in even one return sufficient to leave a mark. Apart from the gun, Zimmerman would have to be a fairly experienced fighter to be able to turn the fight around and subdue or defeat a rush attack like this allegedly was. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/625 "2012-04-23T12:21:35Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Since Zimmerman didn’t shoot Martin in the back, that means that Martin kept fighting after he punched Zimmerman. Let me clarify your remark here. When you say “after he punched Zimmerman,” you mean that Martin threw the first punch, right? If so, what evidence do you have that this is true? ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/626 "2012-04-23T12:58:56Z")
> [@sugaree](#): > > Let me clarify your remark here. When you say “after he punched Zimmerman,” you mean that Martin threw the first punch, right? > > If so, what evidence do you have that this is true? It was in Zimmerman’s statement and Zimmerman’s condition when the police arrived was consistent with that. What evidence do you have it wasn’t true? Unless the prosecution can prove it wasn’t true then Zimmerman walks. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/627 "2012-04-23T13:01:00Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > And what, exactly, would make this so hard to do? At least relative to any other murder trial? Defendants are notorious at trying to sell us on alternative theories, some much more plausible than this one. What parts of Zimmerman’s story are so much more compelling that the average murder defendant? None is particularly compelling. The problem is that the story as we know it from reliable sources (I discount much of what I’ve heard as not reliable) leaves enough time in the timeline for the scenario I invented in my previous post (and others) to be reasonably plausible. The prosecution has to prove beyond a _reasonable_ doubt that it didn’t happen that way. What evidence would that take? A witness that claims Zimmerman tried to restrain Martin would work, DeeDee’s actual statement to the investigators might contain something that would do it. But until something comes up to eliminate any and all realistic “Martin struck first” scenarios, they constitute “reasonable doubt”, and Zimmy walks. Most other murder trials don’t have this much room for reasonable doubt. Unfortunately, this one does. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/628 "2012-04-23T13:04:04Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Since Zimmerman didn’t shoot Martin in the back, that means that Martin kept fighting after he punched Zimmerman. Yeah, how do you know that Zim didn’t grab Martin to keep the “asshole” from getting away until the cops got there, and Martin simply punched him out of self defense to free himself from this unknown assailant? Why is your assertion more valid? What evidence do you have to support your theory? ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/629 "2012-04-23T13:38:44Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Yeah, how do you know that Zim didn’t grab Martin to keep the “asshole” from getting away until the cops got there, and Martin simply punched him out of self defense to free himself from this unknown assailant? > > Why is your assertion more valid? What evidence do you have to support your theory? I already responded in post #626 ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/630 "2012-04-23T13:52:26Z")
So the only evidence that you are going on is the killer’s statement. Ok got it. That’s pretty “bulletproof” I guess. ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/631 "2012-04-23T14:08:00Z")
Is it just me or does it look like George isn’t balding? The picture with all the blood looks like a head with male pattern baldness. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/632 "2012-04-23T14:08:24Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > None is particularly compelling. The problem is that the story as we know it from reliable sources (I discount much of what I’ve heard as not reliable) leaves enough time in the timeline for the scenario I invented in my previous post (and others) to be reasonably plausible. But the timeline is the least of it. It’s the _content_ of Zimmerman’s story that needs to be plausible. I’ll bring up [Scott Peterson](http://crime.about.com/b/2004/09/21/peterson-had-quick-theory-about-lacis-dissappearance.htm) to illustrate. Here was a man on trial for the murder of his pregnant wife. One important element of his story was that he went on a solo fishing trip the day she disappeared. Was this impossible? Of course not. Did this alibi fit time-wise? Yes. But was it plausible to the jury? No. They convicted of him 1st degree murder. This, despite having no [direct evidence](http://crime.about.com/od/news/a/scott_peterson.htm)that Peterson committed this crime. The State’s case was based completely on circumstantial evidence. If Scott Peterson was convicted of murder, I really see no reason why Zimmerman’s chances of walking are especially high. I mean, I know self-defense cases have their own special issues, but at least the State doesn’t have to prove the defendant actually killed the victim. With that off the table, all they have to do is prove the killing was unjustified. Impeach the credibility of the primary witness (in this case, the defendant) and in my eyes, it won’t take much to crumble the self-defense claim. And if Zimmerman’s performance at the bond hearing is any indication, he will probably say something stupid and self-incriminating on the witness stand. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/633 "2012-04-23T14:20:24Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > So the only evidence that you are going on is the killer’s statement. > > Ok got it. That’s pretty “bulletproof” I guess. Please expound on the ‘evidence’ you have that it didn’t happen that way. Keep in mind that the prosecution has to prove that it didn’t happen the way that Zimmerman said it did or Zimmerman will go free. Everybody who is actually paying attention knows what evidence is available. Your snarky reply is rather sad and pathetic. Orlando Sentinel today. > [@](#): > > At Friday’s bond hearing, a surprise witness for the defense, prosecution Investigator Dale Gilbreath, took the stand and said **authorities do not know who started the deadly fight between Zimmerman, a Neighborhood Watch volunteer, and Trayvon, the black teen whose death has spurred protests across the country.** If you have evidence that Gilbreath doesn’t have, then please trot it out. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/634 "2012-04-23T14:39:36Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > It was in Zimmerman’s statement and Zimmerman’s condition when the police arrived was consistent with that. Zimmermans’s condition as reported by the police is in no way revealing of who committed the first assault. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/635 "2012-04-23T14:43:41Z")
I’m just heartened that all the law and order types have finally found a criminal defendent whose every word they believe as though it were pass downed from Yahweh himself. It gives me hope for the judicial process. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/636 "2012-04-23T14:44:19Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Zimmermans’s condition as reported by the police is in no way revealing of who committed the first assault. That, I presume, was his point. It is entirely consistent with Zimmerman’s story, therefore doesn’t bring the required doubt on it. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/637 "2012-04-23T14:44:23Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Zimmermans’s condition as reported by the police is in no way revealing of who committed the first assault. So you concede that Zimmerman’s condition was consistent with his statment? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/638 "2012-04-23T14:44:27Z")
> [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](#): > > Is it just me or does it look like George isn’t balding? The picture with all the blood looks like a head with male pattern baldness. I think it’s an effect of the flash. The balding pattern would be quite weird for male pattern baldness. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/639 "2012-04-23T14:49:30Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Yeah, how do you know that Zim didn’t grab Martin to keep the “asshole” from getting away until the cops got there, and Martin simply punched him out of self defense to free himself from this unknown assailant? > > Why is your assertion more valid? What evidence do you have to support your theory? The anti-Zimmerman crowd has made two seemingly contradictory arguments. (1) Zimmerman was much bigger than Martin, a bouncer, and should have been able to win the fight without deadly force, and (2) This same Zimmerman confronts Martin and loses a fight without putting a scratch on Martin. It doesn’t make any sense. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/640 "2012-04-23T15:06:35Z")
> [@](#): > > > [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > > > Since Zimmerman didn’t shoot Martin in the back, that means that Martin kept fighting after he punched Zimmerman. > > > [@Stoid](#): > > > > Wow.. the bizarre “A = B” that has been going on around this situation never stops blowing my mind. Follow along as I explain to you what _you_ said: You asserted, and I quoted you asserting that: **A:** Zimmerman did not shoot martin in the back, THEREFORE ( **=** ) **B:** Martin kept fighting after he punched Zimmerman which is a conclusion I find _bizarre_. Because it is _bizarre_ to conclude that “Martin kept fighting” and you know this _BECAUSE_ Zimmerman did not shoot him in the back. Perhaps you meant to say that if Zimmerman _had_ shot Martin in the back, that would be conclusive proof that Martin was not actively fighting with him at the moment Zimmerman pulled the trigger. However, what you said, that the lack of the shot proves that he was actively fighting, is not the same thing and is also not a logical conclusion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=31) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=33)