# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 327
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2012, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6523 "2012-10-25T23:31:18Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Like I said, there are not _photos_ to support this claim. > > I really do hope the defense tries to play up the bloody face thing, though. The bloodier his face, the more unlikely it is Martin would have been as clean as he was if he attacked Zimmerman, and the more hysterical it’ll be at trial when O’Mara has to explain this discrepancy away. And where was Martin when this picture was taken? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6524 "2012-10-26T01:11:07Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > …there are not _photos_ to support this claim. > [@Magiver](#): > > And where was Martin when this picture was taken? What did your face look like before your parents were born? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6525 "2012-10-26T01:14:22Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Fair enough. > > In this circumstance, say you were Zimmerman’s lawyer: would you advise him to take the stand? > > Putting aside my personal feelings, personally, I wouldn’t. I would not allow him to open his mouth again. I would advise almost any client in Zimmerman’s position to testify – he has no prior criminal record and a claim of self-defense is always strongest when the jury hears from the person who says he had no choice but to attack. But… because Zimmerman himself is such a loose cannon, my usual no-brainer is weakened greatly. Still, on balance, the evidentiary considerations still make it necessary. I would prep the hell out if him, put him on, and pray. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6526 "2012-10-26T01:23:44Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > What did your face look like before your parents were born? Where was Martin’s body when the observation was made. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6527 "2012-10-26T01:38:25Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > Go look at the evidence. Zimmerman’s blood was found under Martin’s undershirt, beneath his hoodie. The investigators stated that Martin’s hands were under his body. One way for that to happen is by transfer from Martin’s hands. But you can’t explain how no blood was found on Martin’s hands without inventing a pile of bullshit that has no evidentiary basis. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6528 "2012-10-26T01:41:53Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > You’re trying to make the case that the lack of evidence is evidence. > > You’re suggested that the non existing evidence is somehow evidence??? > > Part A - The absence of evidence is evidence. > > Part B - And that (non existing) evidence suggests Martin didn’t come in contact with Zimmerman, Yes, and what part of this aren’t you understanding? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6529 "2012-10-26T01:57:07Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Where was Martin’s body when the observation was made. Lets say Martin’s body was down on the ground, right where he was shot, when the paramedic noticed all of this blood on Zimmerman’s face. This matters…why? ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6530 "2012-10-26T02:17:39Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > Try t he June 29th edition of the Orlando Sentinel. At the hearing, Kevin O’R > > ourke, a Sanford firefighter, testifiedd at the hearing that then when he and his crew arrived, they cleaned up Zimmerman’s face, because it was 45% covered with blood. O’Rourke actually said that 45% of Zimmerman’s face and head were covered with blood. I have no idea how this measurement was arrived at, or if he had some sort of formula that helped him calculate that X% of the face and Y% of head were bloody and those numbers could be averaged together to come up with 45% of the total surface mass or what. O’Rourke said that they cleaned up Zimmerman’s face and hands, and did not mention cleaning up Zimmerman’s head. The 45% statement was made later in the interview. > [@doorhinge](#): > > I think the real question would be - If “dimmy derko” claimed that GZ claimed GZ was being mounted mma-style by TM as TM rained blows down on GZ, would anyone know what being “mounted mma-style” would even look like? Dimmy derko is quoting one of the neighbors who witnessed part of the confrontation. I’m not familiar with mixed martial arts myself, but apparently the guy meant…raining down punches? At any rate, in a later interview he retracted the comparison somewhat, saying that Martin was on top but he did not see any punching. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6531 "2012-10-26T02:21:37Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Lets say Martin’s body was down on the ground, right where he was shot, when the paramedic noticed all of this blood on Zimmerman’s face. > > This matters…why? Because a significant amount of time has transpired. ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6532 "2012-10-26T02:29:34Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > But you can’t explain how no blood was found on Martin’s hands without inventing a pile of bullshit that has no evidentiary basis. Go look at the DNA evidence. The people who keep regurgitating that there was no Zi mmerman DNA found on Martin’s hands don’t seem to realize that Martin’s hands were never tested. (there’s usually a lot of contamination on a person’s hands anyway, so it’s hard to get an accurate reading). If they had been tested, it would have been listed. They only tested his fingernail, scrappings, (ME2A, ME2B) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6533 "2012-10-26T02:30:34Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > But you can’t explain how no blood was found on Martin’s hands without inventing a pile of bullshit that has no evidentiary basis. Nothing has to be invented. It’s up to the court to prove Zimmerman bled immediately upon being struck in the nose and that it flowed up against gravity and not in. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6534 "2012-10-26T02:31:25Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Yes, and what part of this aren’t you understanding? That would be you’re claim that the lack of evidence is actually evidence. Actual evidence is evidence. The lack of fingerprints on a firearm doesn’t prove that you did or did not handle the firearm. The lack of blood on your knuckles doesn’t mean that you didn’t hit someone hard enough or often enough to cause the other person to bleed. ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6535 "2012-10-26T03:28:31Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Nothing has to be invented. It’s up to the court to prove Zimmerman bled immediately upon being struck in the nose and that it flowed up against gravity and not in. That fact that blood obeys the laws of gravity is only relevant if we allege that Martin was hovering several inches above Zimmerman waving his hands and chanting “I’m not touching you.” But per Zimmerman’s story, Martin was hitting him multiple times, covering his mouth and nose multiple times, and banging his head against the ground multiple times, all after the first punch which broke his nose. Punches can cause blood to splatter, a suffocating hand across the nose could create a sort of suction effect. Zimmerman’s head is bleeding, and Martin is grasping his bloodied head in order to beat it. Zimmerman has cuts or scratches on his forehead and the exterior of his nose, much more noticeable marks than his “black eyes.” His has those four odd dots on the tip of his nose (I cannot tell if they are small punctures or splatter). ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6536 "2012-10-26T04:02:17Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > You keep on believing that nobody ever gets convicted without there being some form of rock-solid proof being provided. Completely innocent people have been convicted on less evidence than is available against Z. That’s not a standard I would wish to hold up as ideal. Glad to see everyone here arguing against the idea that Zimmerman should need to be proved, beyond reasonable doubt, a murderer to be convicted. You’re no better than lynch mobs. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6537 "2012-10-26T04:10:41Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > But you can’t explain how no blood was found on Martin’s hands without inventing a pile of bullshit that has no evidentiary basis. Do you have a report that states that there was no blood or DNA on Martin’s hands? That would be evidence. Do you simply not have a report at all on this issue? That isn’t evidence, and therefore the situation needs no explaining. If it’s the former please show the evidence - and give a cite for the hands, not the fingernails. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6538 "2012-10-26T06:35:09Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > No, really, I don’t. I’m arguing the toss on a messageboard in a sub-forum devoted to opinions. > > You keep on believing that nobody ever gets convicted without there being some form of rock-solid proof being provided. Completely innocent people have been convicted on less evidence than is available against Z. Can you give an example of such a conviction? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6539 "2012-10-26T10:13:21Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Nothing has to be invented. It’s up to the court to prove Zimmerman bled immediately upon being struck in the nose and that it flowed up against gravity and not in. Again, you show your ignorance with remarks like this. The prosecution doesn’t even have to address the claim that Zimmerman’s nose was punched, let alone prove anything about how he bled. It’s up to the defense to present the argument that Martin was free from Z’s blood because all of this gore managed to confine itself neatly inside Z’s sinuses even while his head was being banged against the concrete. How they plan to do this without sending the court into a giggling fit, I can’t wait to see. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6540 "2012-10-26T10:30:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Can you give an example of such a conviction? Here’s a couple. > [@](#): > > Darryl Hunt was convicted of the 1984 rape and murder of Deborah Sykes in North Carolina, though from the start, racial tensions were present: Hunt is black, Sykes was white, and Hunt faced an all-white jury. Further, there was no physical evidence linking him to the crime, merely testimony from witnesses later proven to be inaccurate. In 1994, DNA technology had advanced to the point where Hunt’s name was cleared in the sexual assault charge, which in turn raised doubts about his involvement in the killing. In December 2003, another man confessed to Sykes’ rape and murder, and the DNA backed up the confession. As a result, Hunt was set free after serving 18 years of his original life sentence. He had always maintained his innocence, and has since become involved with The Innocence Project, a non-profit group that uses DNA testing to help overturn wrongful convictions. The story was retold in the documentary The Trials of Darryl Hunt: > [@](#): > > Convicted of a murder he didn’t commit, Darryl Burton served 24 years of his erroneous life sentence before earning his freedom. When a drug dealer was killed in St. Louis in the summer of 1984, Burton was named for the crime by a pair of witnesses angling for lighter sentences on other charges. There was no evidence linking him to the murder, but the testimony was enough to put him away. With help from Centurion Ministries, Burton’s case was eventually brought back up and he was allowed to go free after 24 years. These are incidences where the person convicted didn’t even admit to being at the scene of the crime and yet there was still a jury willing to find them guilty. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6541 "2012-10-26T10:48:09Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > That’s not a standard I would wish to hold up as ideal. I never said it was a standard to aim for, I’m just saying how things are. > [@Steophan](#): > > Glad to see everyone here arguing against the idea that Zimmerman should need to be proved, beyond reasonable doubt, a murderer to be convicted. You’re no better than lynch mobs. It’d never crossed my mind that he should be lynched; I’d just like to see him spend a long time in jail for the misery he’s caused Trayvon’s family and friends. Oh, and as a cautionary example to set to people who think it’s wise to go trailing suspected criminals but haven’t got the wisdom or common sense to maintain a safe distance. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6542 "2012-10-26T12:10:11Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > I think the real question would be - If “dimmy derko” claimed that GZ claimed GZ was being mounted mma-style by TM as TM rained blows down on GZ, would anyone know what being “mounted mma-style” would even look like? If they had access to the internet and googled “mma mount” they would. [http://ts3.mm.bing.net/th?id=I.4945496676173102&pid=15.1](http://ts3.mm.bing.net/th?id=I.4945496676173102&pid=15.1) Imagine the guy on top was wearing trousers, fighting someone who outweighed him by at least 40lb and who believed he was struggling for his life, while doing it on a wet, grassy surface. Do you think this would make distinctive marks on said trousers? Would they appear different than the trousers of someone who had fell on top of someone and was just trying to get back up? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=326) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=328)