# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 330
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6583 "2012-10-26T16:50:49Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > People act as if Zimmerman couldn’t have disengaged Martin or fight him back, if an attack even did happen (which IMO Zimmerman precipitated). > > I was carefully watching Zimmerman’s interview and I will give Zimmerman the benefit of the doubt. He said Martin punched him when he started reaching into his pocket–GUESS WHAT? Maybe Martin thought he was reaching for his gun. Maybe that’s why he clocked Zimmerman. > > Makes sense. > > Maybe he saw Zimmerman’s firearm. > That could explain Martin’s alleged behavior–rather than him being some violent crazy black kid. Maybe. Do you have any evidence to back this up? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6584 "2012-10-26T16:54:39Z")
[QUOTE=dimmy derko] Is anybody else curious as to why a guy who is fighting for his life and then manages to get his hand on the gun he’s just been reminded he has, then only fires one shot? Isn’t it standard training to empty your gun into the centre of mass of any threat? There’s an argument there for it being one deliberate shot to silence the one person who could put paid to all his high ambitions of being a better judge than daddy. [/QUOTE] This doesn’t make any sense. If Zimmerman wanted to be sure Martin was silenced, why wouldn’t he shoot him multiple times instead of only once? You are much more likely to kill, and therefore silence, a person if you shoot them more than once. The fact that Zimmerman only shot once, if it suggests anything, suggests that Zimmerman was not shooting to silence. It suggests that he was shooting (just as he said) to end the beating. The instant the beating stopped, so did Zimmerman. If Zimmerman wanted to silence Martin, he would have fired multiple times. He didn’t. Which suggests, although it doesn’t prove, that he had other motives than trying to silence Martin. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6585 "2012-10-26T17:35:26Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > This doesn’t make any sense. If Zimmerman wanted to be sure Martin was silenced, why wouldn’t he shoot him multiple times instead of only once? You are much more likely to kill, and therefore silence, a person if you shoot them more than once. Zimmerman had his target no further than arm’s length away. He didn’t need to shoot until he knew he’d hit something. > [@Shodan](#): > > The fact that Zimmerman only shot once, if it suggests anything, suggests that Zimmerman was not shooting to silence. It suggests that he was shooting (just as he said) to end the beating. The instant the beating stopped, so did Zimmerman. That’s a very considered response from someone who only fractions of a second earlier was on the verge of blacking out at the hands of someone who’d stated he was going to kill him. > [@Shodan](#): > > If Zimmerman wanted to silence Martin, he would have fired multiple times. He didn’t. Which suggests, although it doesn’t prove, that he had other motives than trying to silence Martin. > > Regards, > Shodan I think Z knew enough about guns and the particular bullets he’d placed in his own to know that if one was fired into someone’s heart at the distance he was, the person it hit wouldn’t be doing much talking. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6586 "2012-10-26T17:54:37Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Zimmerman had his target no further than arm’s length away. He didn’t need to shoot until he knew he’d hit something. Actually, he didn’t need to shoot until after Martin punched him in the face, knocked him down, and was bashing his head into the ground. And Zimmerman was within arm’s length of Martin earlier and didn’t shoot him - that’s how Martin punched him in the face. > [@](#): > > That’s a very considered response from someone who only fractions of a second earlier was on the verge of blacking out at the hands of someone who’d stated he was going to kill him. It’s pretty easy to tell when someone stops bashing your head in. But you are correct - Zimmerman showed remarkable restraint in only shooting once. Which is further evidence that Zimmerman is not guilty of any form of murder. He showed no signs of intent to kill - only to stop the threat. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6587 "2012-10-26T17:56:02Z")
Restraint that is completely incompatible with his previous allegedly terrified state. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6588 "2012-10-26T18:01:58Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Actually, he didn’t need to shoot until after Martin punched him in the face, knocked him down, and was bashing his head into the ground. And Zimmerman was within arm’s length of Martin earlier and didn’t shoot him - that’s how Martin punched him in the face. Got anything but Z’s say so that it happened like that? As far as I’m aware there are no eyewitnesses to the initiating point of the conflict and at least one earwitness says they heard raised voices arguing before the screams started, which would contradict Z’s account. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6589 "2012-10-26T18:38:03Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Zimmerman had his target no further than arm’s length away. He didn’t need to shoot until he knew he’d hit something. > > That’s a very considered response from someone who only fractions of a second earlier was on the verge of blacking out at the hands of someone who’d stated he was going to kill him. > > I think Z knew enough about guns and the particular bullets he’d placed in his own to know that if one was fired into someone’s heart at the distance he was, the person it hit wouldn’t be doing much talking. **dimmy,** They don’t care–bottom line. You can point to so much that does not make sense. They don’t care. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6590 "2012-10-26T18:45:16Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > **dimmy,** > > They don’t care–bottom line. > > You can point to so much that does not make sense. > > They don’t care. You can lead a Zimmerman defender to water, but unfortunately, you can’t drown them. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6591 "2012-10-26T18:54:47Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Got anything but Z’s say so that it happened like that? To punch someone in the face, you pretty much have to be within arm’s length of them. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6592 "2012-10-26T18:57:43Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > You can lead a Zimmerman defender to water, but unfortunately, you can’t drown them. Lol. But seriously, I cannot understand some of these individuals. I just can’t–It makes no sense to me. And yes, as you pointed out, people have been sent to prison on WAY LESS evidence. There are cases out there that if you heard about, you would shake your head. One thing I am guessing the prosecution will argue is the following (and I said this and they didn’t respond): Who was more likely to be engaged in self-defense: Zimmerman or Martin? They honestly think a jury isn’t going to consider the events leading up to the encounter… The size difference between the two? The interviews Zimmerman gave, especially the one on Hannity? The police report and Serino’s assessment that this was avoidable by Zimmerman? The injury claims and the lack of injuries to back them up? The lack of physical evidence on Martin? Zimmerman’s lack of honesty to the court so far? Again, I just don’t get it. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6593 "2012-10-26T19:16:40Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > To punch someone in the face, you pretty much have to be within arm’s length of them. > > Regards, > Shodan Consider the entirety of the incident. Which of the 2 made the most effort to deliberately close distance on the other? If you need reminding, have a listen to Z’s dispatch call again and ponder how the only time TM was obviously confrontational happens to be when there is nobody there to back up his story. On top of that, explain how someone psyched up to get involved in ridding the neighbourhood of a thieving punk, then allows themself to be taken unawares in such a dumb manner. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6594 "2012-10-26T19:19:03Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > One thing I am guessing the prosecution will argue is the following (and I said this and they didn’t respond): Who was more likely to be engaged in self-defense: Zimmerman or Martin? The prosecution won’t. Reason: it is irrelevant. The fact that Martin could have been “engaged in self defense” in no way detracts from the possibility that Zimmerman was, as well. > [@](#): > > They honestly think a jury isn’t going to consider the events leading up to the encounter… > > The size difference between the two? > > The interviews Zimmerman gave, especially the one on Hannity? > > The police report and Serino’s assessment that this was avoidable by Zimmerman? > > The injury claims and the lack of injuries to back them up? > > The lack of physical evidence on Martin? > > Zimmerman’s lack of honesty to the court so far? > > Again, I just don’t get it. I don’t get it - you are so sure that Zimmerman is guilty, yet you won’t take a small bet I suggested on him being convicted on 2nd degree murder… Apparently you’re not willing to put your money where your mouth is. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6595 "2012-10-26T19:45:24Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The prosecution won’t. Reason: it is irrelevant. The fact that Martin could have been “engaged in self defense” in no way detracts from the possibility that Zimmerman was, as well. > > I don’t get it - you are so sure that Zimmerman is guilty, yet you won’t take a small bet I suggested on him being convicted on 2nd degree murder… **Apparently you’re not willing to put your money where your mouth is.** I already gave you my response–I am willing to put my money where my mouth is. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6596 "2012-10-26T19:48:18Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > 1. **Consider the entirety of the incident.** > > 2. Which of the 2 made the most effort to deliberately close distance on the other? > > 3. If you need reminding, have a listen to Z’s dispatch call again and ponder how the only time TM was obviously confrontational happens to be when there is nobody there to back up his story. > > 4. On top of that, explain how someone psyched up to get involved in ridding the neighbourhood of a thieving punk, then allows themself to be taken unawares in such a dumb manner. Let me try to answer this according to what they have written here. 1. Irrelevant. 2. Zimmerman was heading back to his truck. Martin “doubled back”. 3. That has no legal significance. 4. That’s not illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6597 "2012-10-26T19:54:23Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Consider the entirety of the incident. Which of the 2 made the most effort to deliberately close distance on the other? Martin, based on the fact that he could have continued along to his father’s house, but chose to double back and confront Zimmerman. > [@](#): > > If you need reminding, have a listen to Z’s dispatch call again and ponder how the only time TM was obviously confrontational happens to be when there is nobody there to back up his story. Again, you are not making any sense. Zimmerman was not on the phone with the dispatcher when the altercation began. Martin was allegedly on the phone with Dee Dee when Martin confronted Zimmerman, but her account backs up the idea that Martin confronted Zimmerman. Read the [transcript](http://statelymcdanielmanor.wordpress.com/2012/06/13/the-trayvon-martin-case-update-11-the-dee-dee-interview-kaboom/). According to Dee Dee, Zimmerman was following Martin, then lost him. Martin was going to run to the back of his father’s condo, which he does, and then Martin tells Dee Dee that he “lost” Zimmerman. Then Martin starts walking back to where he confronts Zimmerman. Dee Dee tells Martin to keep running and get into his father’s house, but Martin ignores that. According to Dee Dee, Martin says to Zimmerman “why are you following me?” and Zimmerman says “what are you doing around here?” Then Dee Dee hears a “bump” and someone starts screaming “get off me”. Which matches Zimmerman’s account more or less exactly. Zimmerman says he was following Martin, lost him (hence the “these assholes, they always get away” remark), then Martin came back into view, they exchanged remarks (although the wording differs from Dee Dee’s account) and then Martin punched Zimmerman in the face, which is likely to be the “bump” Dee Dee reports. And we go on from there to the other parts of Zimmerman’s account backed up by evidence - an eyewitness say Martin on top of Zimmerman, etc. > [@](#): > > On top of that, explain how someone psyched up to get involved in ridding the neighbourhood of a thieving punk, then allows themself to be taken unawares in such a dumb manner. There is no indication that Zimmerman was psyched up or expected that Martin would attack him. Just the opposite - if Zimmerman had thought that Martin was going to try to kill him, he would have approached Martin with his gun drawn. Which he didn’t. [QUOTE=betenoire39] Let me try to answer this according to what they have written here. 1. Irrelevant. 2. Zimmerman was heading back to his truck. Martin “doubled back”. 3. That has no legal significance. 4. That’s not illegal. [/QUOTE] Not very close - you might want to try reading a little more closely, or at all. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6598 "2012-10-26T19:56:09Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > I already gave you my response–I am willing to put my money where my mouth is. Ok - so $100 bet on whether Zimmerman gets convicted of 2nd degree murder? ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6599 "2012-10-26T19:57:40Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Ok - so $100 bet on whether Zimmerman gets convicted of 2nd degree murder? I said attach the manslaughter to it. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6600 "2012-10-26T20:01:38Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > I said attach the manslaughter to it. Ah I see. So you don’t think Zimmerman is guilty of 2nd degree murder? That’s something new. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6601 "2012-10-26T20:04:41Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Ah I see. So you don’t think Zimmerman is guilty of 2nd degree murder? That’s something new. Nothing incompatible with what I have said… Sometimes, prosecutors charge “up” and then work their way down. Get as high as you think you can get and negotiate. Maybe a plea will be reached. This is not uncommon. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6602 "2012-10-26T20:06:09Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Nothing incompatible with what I have said… > > Sometimes, prosecutors charge “up” and then work their way down. > > Get as high as you think you can get and negotiate. > > Maybe a plea will be reached. > > This is not uncommon. So do you think Zimmerman committed a 2nd degree murder? See, you keep arguing that he did. But apparently not enough to put any money behind it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=329) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=331)