# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 332
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2012, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6623 "2012-10-27T20:51:32Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > “Right. Jury, should we play the call again to see what the truth is? Because the truth is not coming out of this man’s mouth.” This is probably excellent dialog for an episode of “Franklin and Bash,” but it’s improper in a real courtroom. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2012, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6624 "2012-10-27T20:54:45Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Even if he’d said those exact words, it doesn’t have to mean he was being literal. I’d be interested to hear how much more of Dee Dee’s statement you think is factually correct. > > It wont surprise me in the slightest if this is the only thing she’s said that you are inclined to believe. No it doesn’t have to mean it’s being literal. Now you’re in the arena of creative interpretation. The first logical thing to do is look at the context in which it was made. He was asked by Dee Dee to run to his house and he said he wasn’t going to run because he was right by his house. The implication here is fairly straight forward. There’s no reason to run to his house because he’s there. Your argument is that he’s NOT right by his house despite the fact that he says he is. What evidence do you have that disputes his conversation to Dee Dee besides saying it’s up to interpretation and should not be taken at face value. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2012, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6625 "2012-10-27T21:02:03Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > I could just as easily say that your assumptions are centred around TM being a confrontational thug… You could say that, certainly, but it would be a pretty stupid thing to say, because my assumptions are based on evidence and rational thought, and yours are not. > [@](#): > > So, you don’t think TM was a confrontational thug who’d take on an adult with his bare fists? Are you implying he attacked Z with a weapon, now? I think your suggestion that Martin gave Zimmerman a “heads up” that he was about to attack is a figment of your imagination. Of course, that does not distinguish it from pretty much everything else you have been saying in this thread. I just thought we should keep straight which are the parts that you are making up and blaming on others, and which are the parts you are making up and blaming on yourself. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2012, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6626 "2012-10-27T21:03:09Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > No it doesn’t have to mean it’s being literal. Now you’re in the arena of creative interpretation. > > The first logical thing to do is look at the context in which it was made. He was asked by Dee Dee to run to his house and he said he wasn’t going to run because he was right by his house. The implication here is fairly straight forward. There’s no reason to run to his house because he’s there. > > Your argument is that he’s NOT right by his house despite the fact that he says he is. What evidence do you have that disputes his conversation to Dee Dee besides saying it’s up to interpretation and should not be taken at face value. If he was “right by his house,” do you have a theory as to why he didn’t just go indoors, or why such a violent, confrontational person wouldn’t have gone back looking for Z with a weapon? What is it you know about Trayvon Martin that makes your explanation more likely than a neighbourhood watch guy trying to make a citizen’s arrest and failing miserably? ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2012, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6627 "2012-10-27T21:08:14Z")
[http://www.elpasotimes.com/news/ci\_21843760/teen-accused-el-paso-officers-fatal-beating-indicted](http://www.elpasotimes.com/news/ci_21843760/teen-accused-el-paso-officers-fatal-beating-indicted) If it turns out this person didn’t have bruised knuckles, all this talk about lack of knuckle bruising is dead in the water. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2012, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6628 "2012-10-27T21:12:54Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You could say that, certainly, but it would be pretty stupid, because my assumptions are based on evidence and rational thought, and yours are not. > > I think your suggestion that Martin gave Zimmerman a “heads up” that he was about to attack is a figment of your imagination. Of course, that does not distinguish it from pretty much everything else you have been saying in this thread. > > I just thought we should keep straight which are the parts that you are making up and blaming on others, and which are the parts you are making up and blaming on yourself. > > Regards, > Shodan What is announcing your presence to someone you plan on beating up, if not giving them a heads up? How does making any comment give him a better advantage than just marching right up and banging Z out? Are you now denying that Z was distracted enough not to have a clue where TM came from and that if TM hadn’t spoke and instead stayed hidden in the shadows, Z would have just carried on walking back to his vehicle? Or, at least according to his version of events. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2012, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6629 "2012-10-27T21:20:30Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > [http://www.elpasotimes.com/news/ci\_21843760/teen-accused-el-paso-officers-fatal-beating-indicted](http://www.elpasotimes.com/news/ci_21843760/teen-accused-el-paso-officers-fatal-beating-indicted) > > If it turns out this person didn’t have bruised knuckles, all this talk about lack of knuckle bruising is dead in the water. You do realise the whole point of boxers and mma fighters wearing gloves is to minimise the possibilty of damage to the hands, and that even with gloves on, if you punch someone hard enough you can break bones in your own hand, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Saraya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Saraya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saraya)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2012, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6630 "2012-10-27T21:54:04Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > I know it’s not acceptable practice for neighbourhood watch personel to reach for a gun at the merest threat of aggression, but, it being Florida, maybe that’s not the case for general do-gooders. I don’t suppose you can clarify? > > The whole idea that TM would have gone all the way home, not knowing for sure where this strange dude was going to pop up next, then when he’s finally safe, head back looking for the same guy who’s been following him, could only come from a Zimmerman apologist. This first assumes Martin considers him a ‘strange dude?’ And in what context. _Strange_ like perverted, like an man following a nine year old girl home from the playground? Or ‘strange’ as in it’s strange that this random guy would dare stare me down, doesn’t he know I’m a ‘No Limit Nigga?’ It second assumes Martin was aware that Zimmerman was still (or was ever actually) following him. Most people would have gone to their dad and said 'Dad, there’s some guy out there and he followed me home. Dad would a gone outside, met George, talked to him about the situation and it would have all been resolved. And you’re 100% correct. The whole thing is odd, if he would go home to safety and then decide to return to where he’d already been, potentially exposing himself to this ‘strange dude.’ Of course it’s odd, unless that was Martin’s intent… light bulb? ---
**Author:** ![Saraya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Saraya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saraya)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2012, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6631 "2012-10-27T21:58:08Z")
> [@Saraya](#): > > This first assumes Martin considers him a ‘strange dude?’ And in what context. _Strange_ like perverted, like an man following a nine year old girl home from the playground? > Or ‘strange’ as in it’s strange that this random guy would dare stare me down, doesn’t he know I’m a ‘No Limit Nigga?’ > > It second assumes Martin was aware that Zimmerman was still (or was ever actually) following him. > > Most people would have gone to their dad and said 'Dad, there’s some guy out there and he followed me home. Dad would a gone outside, met George, talked to him about the situation and it would have all been resolved. > > And you’re 100% correct. The whole thing is odd, if he would go home to safety and then decide to return to where he’d already been, potentially exposing himself to this ‘strange dude.’ Of course it’s odd, unless that was Martin’s intent… > > light bulb? > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Of course he was. 17yr old males are well known for their tendency to target older, larger adults when they are alone and in neighbourhoods where they barely know a soul and certainly have no idea of who not to fuck with in these hoods. > > Just check the police records for how many adult males are attacked by smaller, lone criminals who don’t even carry a weapon. Young males are ignorant, naive and full of testosterone. It’s not a stretch of the imagination at all. Additionally, these days, in this culture you can be sure kids are far more aggressive and arrogant than ever before. Respect is not something they often understand, and if they do it’s usually through some form or extension of violence. The weapon comment is irrelevant. Just because someone chooses to engage in hostile actions without a weapon does not reflect on the validity of their situation or reasoning, it simply means they were dumb enough to do so without proper means of combat. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2012, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6632 "2012-10-27T22:25:34Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > If he was “right by his house,” do you have a theory as to why he didn’t just go indoors, or why such a violent, confrontational person wouldn’t have gone back looking for Z with a weapon? He did go back to Z with a weapon. He struck Zimmerman with his fists according to Z’s testimony and the evidence of the assault bears this out. The judge in the case has allowed the defense to pursue Martin’s alleged participation in street fighting. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > What is it you know about Trayvon Martin that makes your explanation more likely than a neighbourhood watch guy trying to make a citizen’s arrest and failing miserably? There is no evidence that Zimmerman was trying to make a citizen’s arrest. There was no cause for him to attempt such an act. The evidence shows that Zimmerman called the police on a suspicious person and arranged to meet them upon arrival. What exactly do you think Zimmerman was going to arrest Martin on? ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2012, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6633 "2012-10-27T22:25:47Z")
Sounds like you want Martin to be violent enough to have murderous intent, but not that violent that he’d want to use a weapon or attack his victim from behind. Very convenient, that. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2012, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6634 "2012-10-27T22:37:43Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > He did go back to Z with a weapon. He struck Zimmerman with his fists according to Z’s testimony My 6 yr old nephew has 2 fists… should I report it to the police? > [@Magiver](#): > > and the evidence of the assault bears this out. His injuries are evidence he was injured. There is nothing specific about them that suggests they could only have been caused with deliberate malice by TM. > [@Magiver](#): > > The judge in the case has allowed the defense to pursue Martin’s alleged participation in street fighting. Good. It’ll be interesting to see how he fared against people who outweighed him by 40lb +. > [@Magiver](#): > > There is no evidence that Zimmerman was trying to make a citizen’s arrest. There was no cause for him to attempt such an act. The evidence shows that Zimmerman called the police on a suspicious person and arranged to meet them upon arrival. > > What exactly do you think Zimmerman was going to arrest Martin on? Attempted burglary by staring, is my guess. There is even less evidence that he just wanted to wait for the police to turn up and report TM. As you seem to be aware of, there was nothing really that Z could have said when the police turned up that’d make finding TM a pressing matter, and I’m sure Z didn’t want to be stood there looking like a paranoid jerk when they arrived. ---
**Author:** ![Saraya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Saraya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saraya)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2012, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6635 "2012-10-27T23:00:54Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > There is even less evidence that he just wanted to wait for the police to turn up and report TM. As you seem to be aware of, there was nothing really that Z could have said when the police turned up that’d make finding TM a pressing matter, and I’m sure Z didn’t want to be stood there looking like a paranoid jerk when they arrived. The understanding is that Zimmerman called the police, informed them of the situation, then decided to try and find Martin in order to keep him in sight. If Zimmerman had called the police, informed them of the situation, then left, the police would have most likely never found Martin, which defeats the whole purpose of the call. Assuming Martin ran off and kept on running (e.g. he had no intention of staying in that gated complex), then Zimmerman’s only wasted a phone call and half an hour of the police’s time. Assuming Martin stuck around, the police could then approach him directly. This is extremely logical and plausible and of course ties into Zimmerman’s story. If the prosecution can somehow prove that this was not Zimmerman’s intent or actions, then they may have a foot to stand on in attempting to swing the jury regarding Zimmerman’s mindset and activities - this is all of course it even gets that far. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2012, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6636 "2012-10-27T23:49:12Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > My 6 yr old nephew has 2 fists… should I report it to the police? Yes, if your 6 year old is 5’11, 158 lbs and has attacked someone you should absolutely call the police. But since we both know your 6 yr old nephew isn’t the size and weight of Martin that would be a foolish scenario to bring up. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > His injuries are evidence he was injured. There is nothing specific about them that suggests they could only have been caused with deliberate malice by TM. That’s simply not true. there are witnesses who were there during and immediately after. No other person could have caused the injuries. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Good. It’ll be interesting to see how he fared against people who outweighed him by 40lb +. I agree. Particularly if it starts by a sucker punch. As I stated earlier, I broke someone’s leg in a martial arts tournament. I weighed about 115 lbs at the time and maybe 5’3". When I was Martin’s age I weighed 135 lbs and could easily drop an adult with or without a sucker punch. Are you suggesting someone with the height and weight of an adult can’t deliver a crippling first punch? > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Attempted burglary by staring, is my guess. So your imaginary citizen’s arrest has an imaginary crime. You’re batting 1000. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > There is even less evidence that he just wanted to wait for the police to turn up and report TM. As you seem to be aware of, there was nothing really that Z could have said when the police turned up that’d make finding TM a pressing matter, and I’m sure Z didn’t want to be stood there looking like a paranoid jerk when they arrived. Again, this is simply not true. There is zero evidence that Zimmerman tried to arrest Martin. Zero. There is evidence that he called the police and arranged to meet them. His intentions are a matter of record. You can fantasize about an infinite number of possibilities but they’re just fantasies. And why would Zimmerman feel like a paranoid jerk? I’ve called the police a fair number of times over the years and not all of them turned out to be burglaries. Recently I phoned in someone doing something suspicious and it turned out to be perfectly innocent. I wasn’t the least bit embarrassed nor were the police condescending about coming out. I did exactly what Zimmerman did. I called the police, kept the subject in sight and directed them to him. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2012, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6637 "2012-10-28T05:11:33Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Sounds like you want Martin to be violent enough to have murderous intent, but not that violent that he’d want to use a weapon or attack his victim from behind. > > Very convenient, that. It’s not a case of what anyone _wants_, it’s a case of what can be deduced from the evidence. Martin almost certainly punched Zimmerman in the face - I can think of no other reasonable explanation for his facial injuries, and no-one else has provided one in this thread - and absolutely certainly was on top of him fighting him for a significant amount of time. His intentions are irrelevant, as he’s not on trial. His actions, and more precisely the effect they had on Zimmerman, are what matters. Speaking of wants, I don’t want Zimmerman to _be_ either innocent or guilty, I don’t really care. I’ve no idea why some people here care so much about it, either. What I do care about, what I very strongly want, is that Zimmerman’s guilt or otherwise is decided solely on the evidence. Again, I don’t understand why so many people don’t want that to happen. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2012, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6638 "2012-10-28T11:48:33Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Yes, if your 6 year old is 5’11, 158 lbs and has attacked someone you should absolutely call the police. But since we both know your 6 yr old nephew isn’t the size and weight of Martin that would be a foolish scenario to bring up. I was simply reminding you that fists aren’t automatically weapons and just because TM was capable of making them, it doesn’t mean he did. > [@Magiver](#): > > That’s simply not true. there are witnesses who were there during and immediately after. Witnesses whose limited views and perceptions of the event are hardly conclusively in Z’s favour. > [@Magiver](#): > > No other person could have caused the injuries. Even if true, it doesn’t mean they were caused with malice. > [@Magiver](#): > > I agree. Particularly if it starts by a sucker punch. As I stated earlier, I broke someone’s leg in a martial arts tournament. I weighed about 115 lbs at the time and maybe 5’3". When I was Martin’s age I weighed 135 lbs and could easily drop an adult with or without a sucker punch. If at the age of 17 and without any form of full contact martial arts training, you could easily take on an adult who had enough confidence in his own fighting abilities to work on nightclub doors, and beat the shit out of him, you must have been a fearsome teenage specimen. And a bit of a one-off. I’m considerably older than Z, have had no extensive training in any martial art, and have never worked as a bouncer, but I know that if TM had tried what he’s supposed to have done on me, I wouldn’t have needed a gun and Martin would have lived to regret it. > [@Magiver](#): > > Are you suggesting someone with the height and weight of an adult can’t deliver a crippling first punch? They can, but how a guy who has worked club security can get caught out like that is beyond me. Especially when they are supposed to be acting alert and attentive. > [@Magiver](#): > > So your imaginary citizen’s arrest has an imaginary crime. You’re batting 1000. Like the imaginary terror of Z, which instead of making him back off from further contact with his frenzied attacker after firing his gun and not being entirely sure he’d hit TM, then causes him to dive back on his opponent. > [@Magiver](#): > > Again, this is simply not true. There is zero evidence that Zimmerman tried to arrest Martin. Zero. So when Dee Dee heard TM say “Get off. Get off.” he was trying to swat away a pesky mosquito? > [@Magiver](#): > > There is evidence that he called the police and arranged to meet them. His intentions are a matter of record. You can fantasize about an infinite number of possibilities but they’re just fantasies. A particularly persuasive prosecutor could make a good argument that all his previous calls were trial runs to get the police response times down, with him throwing in a few silly calls just so it isn’t too obvious. Throw in his connections with Osterman and Taafe and you’ve got a mini undercover cop unit. > [@Magiver](#): > > And why would Zimmerman feel like a paranoid jerk? I’ve called the police a fair number of times over the years and not all of them turned out to be burglaries. Recently I phoned in someone doing something suspicious and it turned out to be perfectly innocent. I wasn’t the least bit embarrassed nor were the police condescending about coming out. I did exactly what Zimmerman did. I called the police, kept the subject in sight and directed them to him. I’m not talking about you. This is about Z, remember? ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2012, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6639 "2012-10-28T12:11:17Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > It’s not a case of what anyone _wants_, it’s a case of what can be deduced from the evidence. You seem to think it’s conclusively in Z’s favour, I don’t. > [@Steophan](#): > > Martin almost certainly punched Zimmerman in the face - I can think of no other reasonable explanation for his facial injuries, and no-one else has provided one in this thread - Accidental collision of heads as they engaged in a struggle on the wet grass and slipped to the ground. The slight cuts on the back of the head could have come from any solid object on the floor. They certainly weren’t caused by a head being forcibly slammed against a concrete surface at least once. My guess is Z’s head rolled against a small stone. > [@Steophan](#): > > and absolutely certainly was on top of him fighting him for a significant amount of time. How significant? Significant enough that both party’s clothes should have been pretty much soaked? Significant based on who’s estimate? I haven’t seen a claim from Z as to how long he had TM on top of him. > [@Steophan](#): > > His intentions are irrelevant, as he’s not on trial. His actions, and more precisely the effect they had on Zimmerman, are what matters. His actions before Z butted into his life were fairly benign. It’s only when he meets Z that he becomes this cocky, outraged, murderous teen thug. > [@Steophan](#): > > Speaking of wants, I don’t want Zimmerman to _be_ either innocent or guilty, I don’t really care. I’ve no idea why some people here care so much about it, either. What I do care about, what I very strongly want, is that Zimmerman’s guilt or otherwise is decided solely on the evidence. Again, I don’t understand why so many people don’t want that to happen. The way I see it, the only people who should give a shit about Z’s well-being are his friends and family and those being paid to defend him. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2012, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6640 "2012-10-28T13:13:39Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > The slight cuts on the back of the head could have come from any solid object on the floor. They certainly weren’t caused by a head being forcibly slammed against a concrete surface at least once. Since you claim that this is certain, you should be able to prove it. Prove that the cuts were not caused by Zimmerman’s head being slammed against a concrete surface at least once. Let’s see your evidence. And again - “it could have happened some other way” is not certain proof that it didn’t happen that way. You claim it is certain that Zimmerman did not get the cuts on the back of his head from being slammed into a hard surface. Prove it. Now, since you cannot prove it, and have no evidence for your assertion at all, it is clear that you are making things up, again. So, on the one side, logic, rational thought, and evidence. On the other side, you. I think it is about time you tried to change the subject to some other piece of nonsense that you make up and try to foist off on someone else. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2012, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6641 "2012-10-28T13:47:34Z")
\< checks thread title \> Just as I thought. This is the **Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread** and not the **Martin/Zimmerman: incontrovertible facts or gtfo thread**. If you want to start the latter thread, go right ahead, but I’ll be staying in this one. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2012, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6642 "2012-10-28T14:07:02Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > \< checks thread title \> > > Just as I thought. This is the **Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread** and not the **Martin/Zimmerman: incontrovertible facts or gtfo thread**. > > If you want to start the latter thread, go right ahead, but I’ll be staying in this one. In other words, you got nothing. You’re welcome to any opinion you like, but you can’t expect to have a stupid,uunsupported opinion go unquestioned. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=331) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=333)