# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 333
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2012, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6643 "2012-10-28T14:36:10Z")
I’d say the stupid, unsupported opinion is that which tries to paint TM as a vicious thug, based on the flimsiest of factual evidence and the words of a man who has previous for getting physical with strangers. But, none of this seems to matter with Zimmerman defenders. It’s all about what Martin should and shouldn’t have done, and not about what responsibility Z had for putting him in that situation. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2012, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6644 "2012-10-28T15:52:11Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > I’d say the stupid, unsupported opinion is that which tries to paint TM as a vicious thug, based on the flimsiest of factual evidence and the words of a man who has previous for getting physical with strangers. But, none of this seems to matter with Zimmerman defenders. It’s all about what Martin should and shouldn’t have done, and not about what responsibility Z had for putting him in that situation. Yup… Glad we have some backup here… It’s not Zimmerman’s actions that matter (some have actually said this). The onus (in their minds) is on Martin. All of it. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2012, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6645 "2012-10-28T15:54:59Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Prove that the cuts were not caused by Zimmerman’s head being slammed against a concrete surface at least once. Prove that they were and that based on the GREAT pictures of Zimmerman’s supposed injuries, those injuries were caused by his head being “pounded into the pavement”. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2012, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6646 "2012-10-28T17:14:43Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Prove that they were and that based on the GREAT pictures of Zimmerman’s supposed injuries, those injuries were caused by his head being “pounded into the pavement”. Again I must point out the dramatically different modes of “shooting the breeze on the Internet” and “discussing evidence in the context of a trial.” If each side has an equal burden of proof, as I guess would be the case in a shooting-the-breeze discussion, then your request is quite reasonable. But of course, in a criminal trial, the sides don’t. In that circumstance, you can’t respond to a request to “prove it,” by saying, “No, you prove it.” Only the prosecution must prove their case, not the defense. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2012, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6647 "2012-10-28T17:23:16Z")
Any Zimmerman defenders curious why the person who was right there to photograph the back of Z’s head didn’t also take a pic of his bloodied face? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2012, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6648 "2012-10-28T18:23:04Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > I was simply reminding you that fists aren’t automatically weapons and just because TM was capable of making them, it doesn’t mean he did. There is no other reasonable explanation for Zimmerman’s injuries and that is what you’re asking the state to prove. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Witnesses whose limited views and perceptions of the event are hardly conclusively in Z’s favour. They are conclusive that a fight took place at a specific time and who was involved. The injuries of one person and the lack of injuries on another indicate the who struck whom. The combined evidence of witnesses, injuries, autopsy and items found on the ground are consistent with Zimmerman’s account which the state must prove wrong beyond a reasonable doubt. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Even if true, it doesn’t mean they were caused with malice. Malice has nothing to do with anything. Martin is not on trial. Zimmerman’s injuries are consistent with a fight and his perception of Martin’s intent begins with an extended assault and ends with a struggle for a gun. The state must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this didn’t happen. The 911 phone call with the screams gives a partial account of the time involved. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > If at the age of 17 and without any form of full contact martial arts training, you could easily take on an adult who had enough confidence in his own fighting abilities to work on nightclub doors, and beat the shit out of him, you must have been a fearsome teenage specimen. And a bit of a one-off. No Martial Arts training needed. Either a sucker punch to the head or a shoulder butt will take someone down. Martin was taller and in better physical shape than Zimmerman. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > I’m considerably older than Z, have had no extensive training in any martial art, and have never worked as a bouncer, but I know that if TM had tried what he’s supposed to have done on me, I wouldn’t have needed a gun and Martin would have lived to regret it. If a 5’ 11” 158 lb 17 year old male got on top of you you’d be in serious trouble. The advantage is substantial. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > They can, but how a guy who has worked club security can get caught out like that is beyond me. Especially when they are supposed to be acting alert and attentive. If there were such a thing as a professional bar bouncer I would agree with you. The skill required to be a bar bouncer is the ability to stand in front of a door. I’ve seen a fair number of them get their ass kicked. A GOOD bouncer learns how to recognize a bad situation before it connects with his face and tries to defuse it. Zimmerman had to have recognized the threat that Martin posed and potentially did not do enough IMO to defuse it. If Dee Dee’s account is correct there was virtually no time to defuse it. If Zimmerman’s account is correct there was a small window of time to convey the situation from his POW and let Martin know the police were close by which would be a good reason not to assault Zimmerman. Based on both phone conversations Martin and Zimmerman distrusted the other. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Like the imaginary terror of Z, which instead of making him back off from further contact with his frenzied attacker after firing his gun and not being entirely sure he’d hit TM, then causes him to dive back on his opponent. He should have shot him again to ensure Martin was dead before pushing him off. It had to be apparent when he pushed him off or he fell off that the bullet struck something. At that point the prudent thing would have been to ensure Martin was no longer a threat. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > So when Dee Dee heard TM say “Get off. Get off.” he was trying to swat away a pesky mosquito? Dee Dee wasn’t there. She has no way of knowing who said it. If you look at her statement she states that she heard “get off” a little bit. This point was addressed by the interviewer and she repeated that she heard it a little bit. Whoever said it would certainly not whisper it so either the headset fell off or she heard someone further away from the headset say it. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > A particularly persuasive prosecutor could make a good argument that all his previous calls were trial runs to get the police response times down, with him throwing in a few silly calls just so it isn’t too obvious. Throw in his connections with Osterman and Taafe and you’ve got a mini undercover cop unit. That’s pure fantasy speculation and would not be allowed in court. You can’t just make shit up. Well you can of course. You’ve been doing it all along. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > I’m not talking about you. This is about Z, remember? Yes, it’s not about me. But there is no reason to speculate that Zimmerman would commit a crime in front of police to avoid embarrassment. What evidence do you have for this bizarre speculation? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2012, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6649 "2012-10-28T18:34:52Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Prove that they were and that based on the GREAT pictures of Zimmerman’s supposed injuries, those injuries were caused by his head being “pounded into the pavement”. As Bricker pointed out, it’s up to the Prosecution to prove it’s supposition. In this case, the prosecution would have to prove the injuries on the back of his head couldn’t be caused by cement. The evidence is Zimmerman’s injuries, the pictures, EMT reports, Zimmerman’s wet shirt, and the witnesses who saw someone on the ground. There is zero chance the prosecution can prove the injuries were not caused by head strikes to the cement. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2012, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6650 "2012-10-28T18:46:45Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > I’d say the stupid, unsupported opinion is that which tries to paint TM as a vicious thug, based on the flimsiest of factual evidence and the words of a man who has previous for getting physical with strangers. But, none of this seems to matter with Zimmerman defenders. It’s all about what Martin should and shouldn’t have done, and not about what responsibility Z had for putting him in that situation. Zimmerman did not, according to the evidence we have, put Martin in a situation where he had to do anything. There was no reason whatsoever for Martin not to continue to walk home with his snacks, and continue with his life. He chose not to, for reasons that almost certainly died with him. There is nothing _whatsoever_ wrong with following someone and asking them what they are doing. It cannot give rise to any reasonable fear, and so cannot justify physical force. If you think Zimmerman is guilty of anything, _show us the fucking evidence_. You and others have been asked repeatedly to do this, and have refused. Meanwhile, you’ve been repeatedly shown evidence of Zimmerman’s innocence, which you have only been able to rebut with wild speculation. You’re right about one thing though. Zimmerman’s past doesn’t matter to me when attempting to determine the legality or morality of his actions in this particular case, and they shouldn’t matter to you either. That they do simply show that you’ve decided he’s guilty because you dislike him. Which is an immoral, unjust, prejudiced, disgusting thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2012, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6651 "2012-10-28T19:21:46Z")
> [@dimmy derko](#): > > > [@Magiver](#): > > > > No other person could have caused the injuries. > > Even if true, it doesn’t mean they were caused with malice. Right, right - breaking Zimmerman’s nose and gashing his head was all in good fun. And there was nothing malicious about Zimmerman approaching Martin - it was a prelude to a nice game of hide-and-seek. That’s why Zimmerman, after shooting a hole in Martin, said “you’re It.” Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2012, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6652 "2012-10-28T19:30:57Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > You seem to think it’s conclusively in Z’s favour, I don’t. Nobody thinks it’s conclusive. I don’t know how many times it’s been explained to you. The Defense Counsel doesn’t have to prove anything conclusively. The Prosecution has to prove it COULD NOT occur as stated. The evidence backs up Zimmerman’s account. Not as conclusive evidence but as evidence that does not refute it. That’s the case. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Accidental collision of heads as they engaged in a struggle on the wet grass and slipped to the ground. The slight cuts on the back of the head could have come from any solid object on the floor. They certainly weren’t caused by a head being forcibly slammed against a concrete surface at least once. My guess is Z’s head rolled against a small stone. The entire back of his head has abrasions. It’s not a couple of cuts. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > How significant? Significant enough that both party’s clothes should have been pretty much soaked? Significant based on who’s estimate? I haven’t seen a claim from Z as to how long he had TM on top of him. You’ve seen the 911 call with the screams on it connected with witnesses who saw the fight. That would be the minimum time Martin was on top of Zimmerman. Add in what you think is appropriate for someone to dial the phone after witnessing the beginning of the fight. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > His actions before Z butted into his life were fairly benign. It’s only when he meets Z that he becomes this cocky, outraged, murderous teen thug. Martin was a troubled youth on his 3rd suspension. He was involved in an assault which far exceeded a simple punch in the nose. He did what he did and no amount of hyperbole adjectives attached to him as a debate tactic changes that. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > The way I see it, the only people who should give a shit about Z’s well-being are his friends and family and those being paid to defend him. Again, as has been repeated MANY TIMES by multiple people, nobody gives a shit about Z’s well-being. You and those supporting Martin cannot separate your emotions from the evidence. It’s been nothing but page after page of imaginary scenarios without any evidence to support them. If you have a scenario you think is worth mentioning then back it up with evidence. ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2012, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6653 "2012-10-28T21:55:34Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > It’s easy enough saying that, but when TM turned down the length of the T towards home, he’d have thought Z was still in his car and he wasn’t to know that Z hadn’t drove ahead to the first gap between the houses and was waiting there for him. He’d also seen Z on the phone. It’s not too hard to imagine a concerned 17yr old imagining all sorts of sinister implications to that phone call. > > I’m aware of that. My point is, while Z was following TM and on the phone to the dispatcher, TM wasn’t confrontational in any manner, and the suggestion seems to be that Martin deliberately led Z into a darkened area, but then decided to give Z warning of his presence, for some strange reason. Go on, why don’t you suggest it was to impress his gf Dee Dee, while you are dragging TM’s name through the mud? > > That says nothing of who was walking towards who. > > All Dee Dee’s call does is add further weight to the fact that TM was doing nothing that warranted being profiled as a criminal when Z made him a person of interest. > > So, you think Z was totally calm while he was trailing a potential criminal, with not even a hint of nerves? If Martin wanted to get away from Zimmerman, he could have easily kept going east, instead of south along the path, then walked south, which would have taken him to Brandi’s front door. With a head start, Zimmerman could never have caught him. But than Zimmerman wasn’t following anyone. He was on the phone with the dispatcher. Once the dispatcher told him they didn’t want him following, his breathing returned to normal, indicating he stopped moving. If you don’t believe it, have someone talk to you over the cellphone while you’re running, than reply to what they’re saying. This is one of the reasons why the SPD couldn’t arrest him. They couldn’t refute the laws of nature and add their own emotional desires to the evidence. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2012, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6654 "2012-10-28T22:19:32Z")
If we knew _exactly_ where he got out of his car, we could go about trying to establish just how far he travelled after leaving his vehicle. Got any factual evidence that proves he parked where he said, or is that another Zimmerman Defender no go area? That some of you are making pronouncements about Zimmerman’s actions without even knowing this relevant point for sure, seems to suggest a lot about your impartiality. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6655 "2012-10-29T00:12:51Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > If we knew _exactly_ where he got out of his car, we could go about trying to establish just how far he travelled after leaving his vehicle. Got any factual evidence that proves he parked where he said, or is that another Zimmerman Defender no go area? That some of you are making pronouncements about Zimmerman’s actions without even knowing this relevant point for sure, seems to suggest a lot about your impartiality. Well to start with you don’t know to the second how long he ran, or how fast he was running. What we do know is that both lost sight of each other which puts Martin passed the corner of the NW building. We know from Dee Dee’s testimony that it was a couple minutes until the confrontation after losing sight of Zimmerman. We have a good idea from the flashlight location and witness testimony where Zimmerman was when the fight started. What theory are you working on now? ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6656 "2012-10-29T15:09:13Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > If we knew _exactly_ where he got out of his car, we could go about trying to establish just how far he travelled after leaving his vehicle. Got any factual evidence that proves he parked where he said, or is that another Zimmerman Defender no go area? That some of you are making pronouncements about Zimmerman’s actions without even knowing this relevant point for sure, seems to suggest a lot about your impartiality. Zimmerman got out of his vehicle soon after Martin started running. Since the flashlight was found at the top of the T, and the fact Zimmerman was clicking the other one, he certainly had to be close to where the police car was parked in the reenactment video. That is, if he walked, since there doesn’t appear to be too much difference in the time it took to reach the T. Of course, he could have run full bore from a further distance, but considering his obesity, and sacroilliitis, inflammation of the lower joints, fast walking is probably about it for him. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6657 "2012-10-29T15:18:42Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > Zimmerman got out of his vehicle soon after Martin started running. Since the flashlight was found at the top of the T, and the fact Zimmerman was clicking the other one, he certainly had to be close to where the police car was parked in the reenactment video. Z said that his lights shone into the area between the rows. So his vehicle would have had top’ve been about where the PD vehicle stopped in the re-enactment. > [@hmarvin](#): > > Of course, he could have run full bore from a further distance, but considering his obesity, and sacroilliitis, inflammation of the lower joints, fast walking is probably about it for him. LOL. 1st That kind of inflammation, when it’s chronic can present differently on different days. Some days being more tolerable than others. 2nd The only reports I have read about Z having that sort of condition, it was acute, not chronic and was listed a a result of his altercation with M. If I am not mistaken, that means Z did not have that sort of inflammation before the altercation w/ M. If I am wrong, please let me know. Where did you come across the info that Z had a “bad back” rather than an injured back? [chronic condition vs an acute one resulting from a recent injury] 3rd Z didn’t appear to be so heavy that he couldn’t jog a couple hundred feet. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6658 "2012-10-29T15:29:18Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Well to start with you don’t know to the second how long he ran, or how fast he was running. > > What we do know is that both lost sight of each other which puts Martin passed the corner of the NW building. We know from Dee Dee’s testimony that it was a couple minutes until the confrontation after losing sight of Zimmerman. We have a good idea from the flashlight location and witness testimony where Zimmerman was when the fight started. So, Dee Dee’s testimony is reliable now, is it? Do you really believe there are no significant inconsistencies between Z’s description of events during his nen call and his reenactment the following day? > [@Magiver](#): > > What theory are you working on now? Not telling. I’ll throw another something into the mix to ponder on, instead. Have a listen to Z’s nen call [here](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj7qEcD8R-8) at 3.20 and you’ll hear him say to the dispatcher “They’ll see my truck.” Immediately after it you’ll hear Z say in a much lower voice than he’s used all throughout his call, something like “The keys are in my truck.” Who is he addressing this remark to, if indeed that is what he said? It certainly doesn’t sound like he’s talking to the dispatcher, after all, why would the dispatcher need to know that? Shouldn’t a decent audio expert be able to stablish exactly what was said. and if he says what it sounds like he says, would that give you pause for thought? ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6659 "2012-10-29T15:50:07Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > Zimmerman got out of his vehicle soon after Martin started running. Since the flashlight was found at the top of the T, and the fact Zimmerman was clicking the other one, he certainly had to be close to where the police car was parked in the reenactment video. That is, if he walked, since there doesn’t appear to be too much difference in the time it took to reach the T. Of course, he could have run full bore from a further distance, but considering his obesity, and sacroilliitis, inflammation of the lower joints, fast walking is probably about it for him. If Z made the call at the clubhouse and left his engine running, could we expect to hear it? What about when it’s moving? When TM passed him at the clubhouse, he’d have had to make at least 2 gear changes to continue following him around onto Twin Trees Lane. Is this a testament to the silence of Z’s 4x4’s engine and transmission? ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6660 "2012-10-29T22:20:43Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > Z said that his lights shone into the area between the rows. So his vehicle would have had top’ve been about where the PD vehicle stopped in the re-enactment. > > LOL. > 1st That kind of inflammation, when it’s chronic can present differently on different days. Some days being more tolerable than others. > > 2nd The only reports I have read about Z having that sort of condition, it was acute, not chronic and was listed a a result of his altercation with M. If I am not mistaken, that means Z did not have that sort of inflammation before the altercation w/ M. If I am wrong, please let me know. Where did you come across the info that Z had a “bad back” rather than an injured back? [chronic condition vs an acute one resulting from a recent injury] > > 3rd Z didn’t appear to be so heavy that he couldn’t jog a couple hundred feet. It’s a form of arthritis, deterioration of the spine, which takes time to develop.You can’t get it overnight. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6661 "2012-10-29T22:34:49Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > It’s a form of arthritis, deterioration of the spine, which takes time to develop.You can’t get it overnight. **Would please you cite your source for Zimmerman being afflicted thusly?** fw ever iw the staff at the Mayo clinic seem to have a different idea than you do about sacroiliitis. [Causes](http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/sacroiliitis/DS00726/DSECTION=causes)By Mayo Clinic staff A wide range of factors or events may cause sacroiliac joint dysfunction, including: **Traumatic injury.** A sudden impact, such as a motor vehicle accident or **a fall** , can damage your sacroiliac joints. **So, if you would, could you please provide your source for saying that Zimmerman is afflicted with some form of degenerative arthritis?** As I have said I have only seen the report which indicated that Z suffered from an acute bout of back pain brought on by his ordeal on that night in Feb. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2012, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6662 "2012-10-29T22:50:22Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > So, Dee Dee’s testimony is reliable now, is it? Do you really believe there are no significant inconsistencies between Z’s description of events during his nen call and his reenactment the following day? Dee Dee has all the verbal skills of a 7 year old and that’s being kind. I’ve read her testimony at least 30 times. It’s impossible to follow any coherent line of thought from her. As to what to believe or not believe that’s a function of logic. If she remembers something Martin said she won’t know the exact words but probably is close to recalling his general conversation. If he said he was at a store then we can conclude he was referring to the 7-eleven. If she heard him say he ran to the “mail thing” he’s probably talking about the mail kiosk next to the community Center. But when she says she hears “grass” then that’s an interpretation of the sounds she heard. So to summarize, her testimony about what was said to her is probably more relevant than her interpretation of sounds. And yes, there are no inconsistencies in Z’s description of the major points of his version of events. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Not telling. I’ll throw another something into the mix to ponder on, instead. uh huh. You can’t be bothered with your last theory and you want us to jump to your next one. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Have a listen to Z’s nen call [here](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj7qEcD8R-8) at 3.20 and you’ll hear him say to the dispatcher “They’ll see my truck.” Immediately after it you’ll hear Z say in a much lower voice than he’s used all throughout his call, something like “The keys are in my truck.” > > Who is he addressing this remark to, if indeed that is what he said? It certainly doesn’t sound like he’s talking to the dispatcher, after all, why would the dispatcher need to know that? He doesn’t say it in a lower voice, he’s talked over on the recording by the Dispatcher. He’s talking to the Dispatcher. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Shouldn’t a decent audio expert be able to stablish exactly what was said. and if he says what it sounds like he says, would that give you pause for thought? Yet again you’ve thrown something on the wall to see if it sticks and left out the relevance or theory to discuss. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=332) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=334)