# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 335
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6683 "2012-10-30T01:37:45Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > So, if it was proven that Z was the one making shit up in his account prior to the fight starting - like say for instance, his car was actually parked further down Twin Trees Lane than he said - you’d still be okay with believing his account of how the struggle started, progressed, and ended? > > How wouldn’t the above be relevant? It’d change the whole context of the encounter if Z had parked ahead of TM’s last seen heading direction and had used the break between the houses to get ahead of TM. The time between the end of his nen call and the encounter beginning when the raised voices were heard, could easily have been taken up by Z waiting in the shadows for TM to come towards him, and then when he realised that wasn’t happening, him walking up towards the top of the T until TM came out from hiding and asked Z what his problem was. > > Now, without knowing for certain where the car was parked, why would you believe Z’s version over mine? Because evidence was conveniently scattered about to suggest that? One of the witnesses heard 2 people running by her house. If you would post your theories first we can explain why it’s wrong and save you all that time. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6684 "2012-10-30T01:44:32Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > He’s knocking about with 2 fellow wannabe cops, they know these fucking Goons are causing all the problems in this once fine neighbourhood and the police just don’t seem to be able to do shit about it. > > Why, only the week before, one had been hanging out besides Frank’s house looking at his open door and window, and but for George being on patrol at the right time, he’d likely have been robbed blind. > > They decide it’s the last straw and the next suspicious-looking black guy in a hoody is in for a shock. > > Flash forward a week later and Frank sees a suspicious-looking character heading right by his house without a care in the world, the brazen swine. Frank speed-dials Z and Osterman, and the chase begins. Martin and his fellow thieves (seen in the 7 eleven video) are casing the housing development looking for another house to break into. Zimmerman tries to stop them and they attack him. Now where did I put that pesky evidence. No matter, I’ll just come up with another theory without evidence and repeat the process. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6685 "2012-10-30T01:48:52Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I responded to the wrong post. I called you a “grassy knoll” conspiracy theorist because of your constant hints that someone else was involved, and because on your insistence, in spite of complete lack of evidence, that Zimmerman went out of the house that night to hunt blacks and kill them. Hey, I’m just being as unfavourable in my estimation of Z’s character as others are in their impressions of Trayvon. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6686 "2012-10-30T02:00:01Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > One of the witnesses heard 2 people running by her house. So? Zimmerman didn’t mention anything about pursuing TM at any time. He was just looking for an address - why would he need to run anywhere? > [@Magiver](#): > > If you would post your theories first we can explain why it’s wrong and save you all that time. Don’t concern yourself with saving me time. I’m happy just plodding along at a steady pace. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6687 "2012-10-30T02:01:56Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Martin and his fellow thieves (seen in the 7 eleven video) are casing the housing development looking for another house to break into. Zimmerman tries to stop them and they attack him. Now where did I put that pesky evidence. No matter, I’ll just come up with another theory without evidence and repeat the process. There’s evidence that Z knows Taafe and Osterman well. Do you have any that TM knew these “thieves” well enough to be taking such risks with? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6688 "2012-10-30T02:27:30Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > So? Zimmerman didn’t mention anything about pursuing TM at any time. He was just looking for an address - why would he need to run anywhere? He stated he was following Martin on the phone call to the Dispatcher. There is no dispute with this. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6689 "2012-10-30T02:28:47Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > There’s evidence that Z knows Taafe and Osterman well. Do you have any that TM knew these “thieves” well enough to be taking such risks with? Wow. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6690 "2012-10-30T02:39:15Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > If I was prosecuting Z, first I’d be working on ruling out the theory that Z had help on the night and had been riding around longer than he said before he called the dispatcher. That the idea was to catch themselves a Goon before the police showed up and if it turned out nasty for the Goon, why, they’d figure something out, if they hadn’t already established a plan. Then I could rest easy that I hadn’t got it wrong and missed out on a murder 1 charge. Would you devote any attention to laying out the elements of second degree murder and assembling evidence to support each element beyond a reasonable doubt? I ask because that does not seem to have been of interest to you – or, indeed, to anyone – in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6691 "2012-10-30T02:46:11Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > He stated he was following Martin on the phone call to the Dispatcher. There is no dispute with this. What does “one of the witnesses heard 2 people running by her house” mean? Did she elaborate on that statement to give any kind of time scale? ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6692 "2012-10-30T02:54:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Would you devote any attention to laying out the elements of second degree murder and assembling evidence to support each element beyond a reasonable doubt? > > I ask because that does not seem to have been of interest to you – or, indeed, to anyone – in this thread. So, if you was prosecuting this case and there was even the slightest suspicion that Z had help on the night, you wouldn’t want to look at Z’s phone records just to rule out an avenue of enquiry? You wouldn’t be interested in trying to discredit Z’s description of events all the way up to the death and claim his vagueness in describing his location was intended so he could carry on looking for TM? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6693 "2012-10-30T03:01:48Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > So, if you was prosecuting this case and there was even the slightest suspicion that Z had help on the night, you wouldn’t want to look at Z’s phone records just to rule out an avenue of enquiry? You wouldn’t be interested in trying to discredit Z’s description of events all the way up to the death and claim his vagueness in describing his location was intended so he could carry on looking for TM? In Florida, a first degree murder charge must come via indictment by a grand jury. Since I had, at this point, already chosen to forgo the grand jury option and proceed by information rather than indictment, I would actually be doing my second degree murder case a disfavor by presenting evidence that Zimmerman had help. That kind of investigation is done prior to bringing charges, contrary to the educational guidance the public receives via such legal avenues as Law and Order University. I just don’t get the sense that the legal aspects of this case interest you. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6694 "2012-10-30T03:15:44Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In Florida, a first degree murder charge must come via indictment by a grand jury. Since I had, at this point, already chosen to forgo the grand jury option and proceed by information rather than indictment, I would actually be doing my second degree murder case a disfavor by presenting evidence that Zimmerman had help. > > That kind of investigation is done prior to bringing charges, contrary to the educational guidance the public receives via such legal avenues as Law and Order University. > > I just don’t get the sense that the legal aspects of this case interest you. Not on the level you are obviously interested in. The way I see it, Z’s life is already finished and any jail time will be icing on the cake for me, although I imagine it is much more important to Trayvon’s loved ones. I might not have a clue how to prosecute a criminal, but I know a bullshitter when I see one and Z fits the bill. Btw, I liked the Law And Order dig. It must be great being as smart as you. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6695 "2012-10-30T03:34:43Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Not on the level you are obviously interested in. The way I see it, Z’s life is already finished and any jail time will be icing on the cake for me, although I imagine it is much more important to Trayvon’s loved ones. I might not have a clue how to prosecute a criminal, but I know a bullshitter when I see one and Z fits the bill. > > Btw, I liked the Law And Order dig. It must be great being as smart as you. It’s not so much being smart – although of course I am – but having the training and experience in the field. I don’t offer up opinions on cardiac illness or integrated circuit design, although I’m a bright guy. In fact, BECAUSE I’m a bright guy. I recognize that whatever I might bring to the table as an autodidact is not going to be particularly useful in those fields. But I have a great deal of experience in criminal court. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6696 "2012-10-30T11:03:33Z")
What’s your experience with violent struggling while lay on wet grass like? Would you have expected a fight like Z describes to have left at least some sign of its occurrence on the ground where it happened? Do cops not even have to think along these lines, once the person who admits responsibility for the dead guy on the floor says the magic words “stand your ground” or “self-defence”? With regard to the investigation on the night, do you have any criticism of SPD’s seemingly total lack of regard for documenting the spot where the fight allegedly took place? Wasn’t that equally as important as documenting where TM’s body ended up? Quick bonus question: is driving while using a mobile phone legal in Florida? If it isn’t, Z’s nen call is clear evidence of Z’s disregard for laws and rules that don’t suit him. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6697 "2012-10-30T13:02:05Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > I get it. The only details that matter are how scared poor, innocent Georgie-boy was when this terrifying thug attacked him for no reason Innocent George could have imagined. Yes, that’s correct. If Zimmerman was in reasonable fear of death or serious injury, his shooting of Martin was legal. Whatever the surrounding circumstances. I’m glad you’ve finally realised this. > [@](#): > > Do you even accept that he should face his days in court or do you think that is a travesty, too? There should be a full investigation of Martin’s death. If, as it appears from the evidence that’s been made public so far, there was no wrongdoing on Zimmerman’s part, then taking it to trial would be both wasteful and unjust. You do understand that it’s immoral to use a trial as a form of punishment for someone who’s clearly not guilty, right? There’s a pre-trial hearing that _may_ clear Zimmerman’s name, but due to the paucity of evidence of any sort, proving his innocence may be impossible. Unfortunately the prosecutor chose not to have a Grand Jury hearing, presumably because of that lack of evidence. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6698 "2012-10-30T13:36:34Z")
Let’s say we divide the nights events from Z leaving his home, until the moment the police arrived, into 2 parts, pre and post “nose-breaking first punch,” is it your belief that the credibility of the pre account has no bearing whatsoever on the credibility of the post section? Why would anyone want to continue to believe a person who’d been caught telling a manipulative lie? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6699 "2012-10-30T13:48:44Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Quick bonus question: is driving while using a mobile phone legal in Florida? If it isn’t, Z’s nen call is clear evidence of Z’s disregard for laws and rules that don’t suit him. Needless to say, even if it were illegal, the 404(b) rule I mentioned earlier would preclude your making this argument at trial. But as it happens, Florida is one of the few states without a law against cell phone use while driving. SB 416, a bill that would have done so, was proposed in the Florida state senate this year by state senator Nancy Detert, but failed to pass. Does this information interest you? ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6700 "2012-10-30T14:09:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Needless to say, even if it were illegal, the 404(b) rule I mentioned earlier would preclude your making this argument at trial. > > But as it happens, Florida is one of the few states without a law against cell phone use while driving. SB 416, a bill that would have done so, was proposed in the Florida state senate this year by state senator Nancy Detert, but failed to pass. > > Does this information interest you? Only in that it exonerates Z from having been committing an offence while reporting a non-emergency. He’s not in the clear yet. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6701 "2012-10-30T14:13:28Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Only in that it exonerates Z from having been committing an offence while reporting a non-emergency. He’s not in the clear yet. You said that if cell phone use was illegal, his call would be “…clear evidence of Z’s disregard for laws and rules that don’t suit him.” Now that we know it’s legal, can we similarly conclude that it shows his scrupulous regard for the law? If not, why not? ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2012, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6702 "2012-10-30T14:28:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You said that if cell phone use was illegal, his call would be “…clear evidence of Z’s disregard for laws and rules that don’t suit him.” > > Now that we know it’s legal, can we similarly conclude that it shows his scrupulous regard for the law? > > If not, why not? No. Why should he be commended for something he’s allowed to do? Do you accept that driving while using a mobile when it is illegal shows a disregard for the law? I can’t see how it could be interpreted any other way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=334) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=336)