# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 342
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6823 "2012-11-02T01:02:53Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Nothing I’ve seen from O’Mara indicates they are planning to run with this narrative. Remember his previous comments about Zimmerman’s response to Martin: > > [HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News | HuffPost](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/14/george-zimmermans-lawyer-stand-your-ground_n_1775105.html) > > There would be no reason for him to mention this supposed broken nose if they were planning on making this case be about Martin’s alleged threat to kill. Are the two mutually exclusive? ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6824 "2012-11-02T01:03:12Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Aside from the fact that they may not watch CSI they did treat it as a potential murder incident. Evidence was gathered, Zimmerman was interviewed extensively and it was all turned over to a lawyer who did not see a case. So, you’re happy with every aspect of the police investigation? SPD did a great job in difficult circumstances and left no stone unturned, ya think? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6825 "2012-11-02T01:09:48Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Of course he would. > > Until Z was reminded by TM that he had a gun, it sounds like Z was twiddling his thumbs waiting for inspiration to strike, or for one of TM’s blows to jog his memory, if we are to believe his account of events when they hit the ground. > > Conveniently, Z fails to mention how TM was able to get astride him so easily. What are you talking about? He said he was struck by Martin and and then wrestled around and Martin got on top of him. Martin was a football player. The entire game is based on taking opponents down. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > After he did his dying swan staggering routine from the T to where he fell, did he lie there arms open wide, begging TM to dive on him? Was he too stunned to defend himself adequately from TM’s bone-breaking fists? If so, why would TM decide to get up close and personal when he could have just stomped Z into the pavement? Martin did pound Z into the pavement. All your “why’s” end with the evidence. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > How you can believe Z was in a desperate struggle for his life, and him not leave a single significant mark on his opponent, is puzzling, to put it mildly. It’s not puzzling at all based on the evidence of eye witness accounts, phone records, and injuries. It’s plain as day. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6826 "2012-11-02T01:17:38Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > So, you’re happy with every aspect of the police investigation? SPD did a great job in difficult circumstances and left no stone unturned, ya think? Yes, based on the evidence released so far, I think they did a great job. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6827 "2012-11-02T01:20:19Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > It’s consistent with him bleeding at the scene. It is no clear indication of how it happened and your repeating it doesn’t make it more true. Who else struck Zimmerman? ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6828 "2012-11-02T01:31:46Z")
Lemme concentrate on just a few of your points in particular. > [@Shodan](#): > > Dee Dee describes how Martin lost Zimmerman, doubled back, No. Dee Dee says absolutely nothing that can be construed as Martin “doubling back.” How you hear and read " And then he told me like the guy was getting close..like..and he told me the guy was getting real close to him. The next I hear, ‘What are you following me for?’” and flip that syntax around to mean Martin was getting closer to Zimmerman I have no idea. confronted him, and even heard the “bump” where Martin knocked down Zimmerman. [/QUOTE] You say that last part so factually. And before you start, I’m perfectly willing to consider that Martin did knock down Zimmerman. > [@Shodan](#): > > And if you read the transcript, you will note that at first, Dee Dee says that Martin bumped somebody, and then immediately catches herself to change it to say that somebody bumped Martin. Yes. She certainly did. Now what of it? We all misspeak at times, right? Mix up the names of our children, that sort of thing? I’m kind of fascinated by Freudian slips, but more often a slip of the tongue is just a slip of the tongue. > [@Shodan](#): > > And claims that she knew that somebody bumped Martin instead of vice versa because she could “hear the grass”. That’s not what she meant, and you know it. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6829 "2012-11-02T01:39:47Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > What are you talking about? He said he was struck by Martin and and then wrestled around and Martin got on top of him. Martin was a football player. The entire game is based on taking opponents down. Zimmerman was a bouncer. The entire game is based on being able to spot troublemakers and deal with them in a controlled manner. Z was paid for his abilities. Was Trayvon good enough to be paid yet? > [@Magiver](#): > > Martin did pound Z into the pavement. All your “why’s” end with the evidence. You seem pretty certain of this. Go on, how many times exactly did it happen, going by the injuries? Point to specific characteristics of the injuries that indicate they could only have happened in the way stated. > [@Magiver](#): > > It’s not puzzling at all based on the evidence of eye witness accounts, phone records, and injuries. It’s plain as day. You sound like MOM. _“Nothing to see here, folks. It’s all a wrap and even though we know George should never have been charged, we’re just going along with the charade, knowing good old redneck Americans will see through it.”_ > [@Magiver](#): > > Yes, based on the evidence released so far, I think they did a great job. So, we have your promise when Z is convicted, you wont be blaming SPD for their inadequacies? > [@Magiver](#): > > Who else struck Zimmerman? Who had the most to gain from appearing injured when the police turned up? That’s who I’d be looking at. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6830 "2012-11-02T02:07:57Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Zimmerman was a bouncer. The entire game is based on being able to spot troublemakers and deal with them in a controlled manner. > > Z was paid for his abilities. Was Trayvon good enough to be paid yet? There are no skills required to work as a bouncer and I’ve seen bouncers dropped with one punch. It wouldn’t matter if he was Joe Frazier in his prime because the evidence shows he was taken down by Martin. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > You seem pretty certain of this. Go on, how many times exactly did it happen, going by the injuries? Point to specific characteristics of the injuries that indicate they could only have happened in the way stated. I don’t have to count or be specific of anything except that Zimmerman was the person on the bottom and sustained all the injuries. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > You sound like MOM. _“Nothing to see here, folks. It’s all a wrap and even though we know George should never have been charged, we’re just going along with the charade, knowing good old redneck Americans will see through it.”_ rant. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > So, we have your promise when Z is convicted, you wont be blaming SPD for their inadequacies? there is no evidence that contradicts Zimmermman’s testimony. “beyond reasonable doubt was explained to you. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Who had the most to gain from appearing injured when the police turned up? That’s who I’d be looking at. That statement doesn’t make any sense at all given the evidence. There were witnesses right there after the fight. You seem to have great difficulty with the evidence and choose to continually post questions about stuff already answered by the evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6831 "2012-11-02T02:31:49Z")
> [@sugaree](#): > > No. Dee Dee says absolutely nothing that can be construed as Martin “doubling back.” It’s implied. She said that Martin told her he was next to his house. a number of minutes pass and he’s back up at the intersection of the “T”. There are a number of possibilities based on her testimony. 1. Martin was right by his house per his conversation with Dee Dee and walked back 2. Martin was close enough to his house that he considered himself "right by"and was hiding. She states a couple of interesting things that point to both. “aint gonna run” implies there’s no need to run. He is indeed right by his house. She also says his voice gets lower and later his breathing gets heavier. That sounds like someone hiding or creeping about. If he’s hiding in the bushes along the Northeast side of the back yard area then Zimmerman’s path to the street brings him back toward the T intersection and Martin would hear him getting closer. Whichever scenario occurred the fight still started near the T intersection which means Martin approached Zimmerman and the approach is from East to West which coincides with Zimmerman’s testimony. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6832 "2012-11-02T02:32:56Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > There are no skills required to work as a bouncer and I’ve seen bouncers dropped with one punch. How often was it done by a sober, skinny 17yr old, with no mates around to back him up or try and look impressive for? > [@Magiver](#): > > It wouldn’t matter if he was Joe Frazier in his prime because the evidence shows he was taken down by Martin. There is evidence they were on the floor, but there’s nothing but Z’s word to say how they got there. > [@Magiver](#): > > I don’t have to count or be specific of anything except that Zimmerman was the person on the bottom and sustained all the injuries. Still no evidence of how they occurred, beyond Z’s say so. > [@Magiver](#): > > there is no evidence that contradicts Zimmermman’s testimony. “beyond reasonable doubt was explained to you. You’ve obviously interpreted the nen call and reenactment video in a totally different manner to me. > [@Magiver](#): > > That statement doesn’t make any sense at all given the evidence. There were witnesses right there after the fight. You seem to have great difficulty with the evidence and choose to continually post questions about stuff already answered by the evidence. One very helpful witness who had the foresight to document Z’s rear head injuries, but failed to take one of his obviously bloodied face. > [@](#): > > The first eyewitness account of the 17-year-old’s final moments emerged on Thursday night more than a month after the boy lost his life in an altercation with a neighbourhood watch leader in a gated community in Sanford. > > The anonymous man said he reported to police details of what he saw on the evening of 26 February, which included watching the gunman walking away from the fight apparently uninjured. > **[Trayvon Martin killing: witness says he saw Zimmerman walk away uninjured](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/mar/30/trayvon-martin-witness-zimmerman-uninjured)** > > Account contradicts allegation from Zimmerman's father that Trayvon Martin left his son with injuries including a broken nose ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6833 "2012-11-02T02:47:34Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It’s implied. She said that Martin told her he was next to his house. a number of minutes pass and he’s back up at the intersection of the “T”. > > There are a number of possibilities based on her testimony. > > 1. Martin was right by his house per his conversation with Dee Dee and walked back > 2. Martin was close enough to his house that he considered himself "right by"and was hiding. > > She states a couple of interesting things that point to both. “aint gonna run” implies there’s no need to run. He is indeed right by his house. She also says his voice gets lower and later his breathing gets heavier. That sounds like someone hiding or creeping about. If he’s hiding in the bushes along the Northeast side of the back yard area then Zimmerman’s path to the street brings him back toward the T intersection and Martin would hear him getting closer. > > Whichever scenario occurred the fight still started near the T intersection which means Martin approached Zimmerman and the approach is from East to West which coincides with Zimmerman’s testimony. When you consider Z’s confused state of mind when recalling these events - no doubt a result of his extensive head injuries - isn’t it possible that Z actually caught up with TM on the dog path outside his dad’s home, and was punched so hard he was propelled all the way back up towards the top of the T? Listen to Z’s nen call again. He obviously didn’t have a clue where he was, so for all we know, he could have been anywhere on Twin Trees Lane when he parked up. How can we trust any of his recollections really, bearing in mind the brain damage he must have suffered? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6834 "2012-11-02T02:55:23Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > How often was it done by a sober, skinny 17yr old, with no mates around to back him up or try and look impressive for? your question is moot because the evidence shows it happened. You can stamp your feet and suggest it’s unlikely but the evidence does not support that premise. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Still no evidence of how they occurred, beyond Z’s say so. yes, there is evidence. His bleeding nose is evidence . The prosecution has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt it didn’t happen that way. There is no other logical conclusion absent additional evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6835 "2012-11-02T03:06:27Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > When you consider Z’s confused state of mind when recalling these events Cite he was confused. - > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Listen to Z’s nen call again. He obviously didn’t have a clue where he was, so for all we know, he could have been anywhere on Twin Trees Lane when he parked up. The call shows he knows exactly where he is. He does not know the name of the street. He gave explicit directions and where to meet sans the street name. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > How can we trust any of his recollections really, bearing in mind the brain damage he must have suffered? As has been stated to you repeatedly by more than one person his statements have not been taken at face value. they have been measured against other evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6836 "2012-11-02T03:54:40Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Actually, I never watch any of those cop tv shows. Are you trying to tell me that **a decent forensic scientist couldn’t establish a way to tell approximately how long clothing had been in contact with wet grass with any reliability?** No I am not, since this isn’t remotely like the statement you made before. Way to take a page out betenoire play book though. I believe that is from chapter 3, ‘Obfuscation, Misdirection, the Art of the Backpeddle’ ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6837 "2012-11-02T11:21:42Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Why do you believe the guy being accused of second degree murder when he says he was punched in the face hard enough to break his nose? It’s more that I see no reason, based on evidence, to disbelieve him. > [@](#): > > There is no independent evidence at all which confirms such a thing, so why would you prefer to believe that over, say, it happened as a result of a collision of heads? If it did happen as a result of a clash of heads, Zimmerman would still be as stunned as if he were punched. If the broken nose and knocking to the floor was accidental - which I consider pretty unlikely, an accidental clash of heads with that much force that left no mark whatsoever on Martin is implausible - you still need to explain why he was on top of Zimmerman, attacking him, and why Zimmerman could not reasonably have been in fear of death or serious injury. If Martin was attempting to communicate to Zimmerman that he broke his nose accidentally, continuing to attack him seems to me a poor way of going about it. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6838 "2012-11-02T12:17:28Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Cite he was confused. > > - > > The call shows he knows exactly where he is. He does not know the name of the street. He gave explicit directions and where to meet sans the street name. > > As has been stated to you repeatedly by more than one person his statements have not been taken at face value. they have been measured against other evidence. The post you are replying to was a piss-take post mocking your ability to get inside DD’s head and somewhow interpret exactly what TM did better than anyone else. The clue was in the part you didn’t respond to. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6839 "2012-11-02T12:23:53Z")
> [@sugaree](#): > > No. Dee Dee says absolutely nothing that can be construed as Martin “doubling back.” Incorrect. She describes Martin as telling her that he is running to the back of his father’s house “cause its mo’ easier”. Then Martin “say he right by his father house…” and subsequently “he ran from the back…” after “he lost him”, then Martin tells her that he “started walking back again” to where the fight took place. Zimmerman was following Martin, then they lost sight of each other, then Martin went to his father’s house, and then doubled back and confronted Zimmerman. > [@](#): > > Yes. She certainly did. Now what of it? We all misspeak at times, right? Mix up the names of our children, that sort of thing? Yes, we do. And sometimes we “misspeak” by forgetting what lies we have already told, and accidentally blurting out the truth. > [@](#): > > That’s not what she meant, and you know it. Here is the exact quote - > [@](#): > > Yeah..and I hear, I hear a sound like “bump.” You cou’ hear that Trayvon bump…somebody bumped Trayvon, ’cause I could hear the grass. What exactly she means by saying she could hear grass is not clear, but she definitely says it. She says that the reason that she could hear that somebody bumped Trayvon is that she could hear the grass. As I said, she does not strike me as the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree, but for whatever her testimony is worth, it backs up Zimmerman’s account. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6840 "2012-11-02T12:50:04Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > It’s more that I see no reason, based on evidence, to disbelieve him. That’s your opinion and you are free to have it. Your charity towards someone responsible for the death of a 17 yr old who had been minding his own business before Z interrupted his life, is admirable. > [@Steophan](#): > > If it did happen as a result of a clash of heads, Zimmerman would still be as stunned as if he were punched. IF it happened as Z says, this would be a fair guess, but if it happened once they’d started a standing tug of war, adrenaline is well known for keeping people going through far worse injuries. > [@Steophan](#): > > If the broken nose and knocking to the floor was accidental - which I consider pretty unlikely, Why are you so dubious? We know there was wet grass, which is notoriously slippery - ask football players why they have studs in their shoes - and that they were flailing around in the dark in close proximity before they went to the ground. > [@Steophan](#): > > an accidental clash of heads with that much force that left no mark whatsoever on Martin is implausible - Would you expect an outline of Z’s nose on TM’s forehead or slightly above his hairline? > [@Steophan](#): > > you still need to explain why he was on top of Zimmerman, attacking him, and why Zimmerman could not reasonably have been in fear of death or serious injury. There’s no convincing evidence that TM was doing anything more than trying to get up off the crazy guy who’d grabbed hold of him. At that stage TM had a right to be in as much fear as Z, if not more. > [@Steophan](#): > > If Martin was attempting to communicate to Zimmerman that he broke his nose accidentally, continuing to attack him seems to me a poor way of going about it. I’m pretty sure that by the time he was struggling on the ground, apologising to Z was the last thing on his mind. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6841 "2012-11-02T13:08:17Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > That’s your opinion and you are free to have it. Your charity towards someone responsible for the death of a 17 yr old who had been minding his own business before Z interrupted his life, is admirable. You’re still presuming him guilty here. > [@](#): > > Would you expect an outline of Z’s nose on TM’s forehead or slightly above his hairline? No. Obviously. > [@](#): > > There’s no convincing evidence that TM was doing anything more than trying to get up off the crazy guy who’d grabbed hold of him. At that stage TM had a right to be in as much fear as Z, if not more. Apart from Zimmerman’s screams, the witnesses who saw them on the ground, the multiple injuries to Zimmerman’s head, and Zimmerman’s statement. Add to that the fact that there’s no evidence whatsoever for your position that Zimmerman was holding him on the ground, and your argument has no force. Also, as has been pointed out many times, if both of them were in reasonable fear, Zimmerman still had the right to defend himself. So, congratulations on inventing an unsupported position that _still_ doesn’t show Zimmerman did anything wrong. You’re really not very good at this, are you? > [@](#): > > I’m pretty sure that by the time he was struggling on the ground, apologising to Z was the last thing on his mind. So you acknowledge he was continuing the fight whilst on top of Zimmerman? Do you also acknowledge that the law states that Zimmerman didn’t have to consider the threat ended until Martin backed off and clearly communicated that he was stopping his aggression? ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6842 "2012-11-02T13:47:07Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You’re still presuming him guilty here. No, I’m presuming TM was innocent. > [@Steophan](#): > > No. Obviously. What kind of mark were you expecting then? The rest of TM’s alleged blows left no evidence, so why would you expect any here? Do you think there should be a mark equal to the one found on one of his fingers? > [@Steophan](#): > > Apart from Zimmerman’s screams, Disputed. > [@Steophan](#): > > the witnesses who saw them on the ground, None of whom could be described as having ringside seats. > [@Steophan](#): > > the multiple injuries to Zimmerman’s head, Yet no witnesses who can say for sure they saw TM land a blow, despite watching from multiple viewpoints. > [@Steophan](#): > > and Zimmerman’s statement. As bullet-proof as TM’s heart. > [@Steophan](#): > > Add to that the fact that there’s no evidence whatsoever for your position that Zimmerman was holding him on the ground, and your argument has no force. Well, apart from Z’s own words where he says he had to be careful where he aimed as his other hand was in danger of being hit. Remarkable consideration there by Z, under the circumstances. > [@Steophan](#): > > Also, as has been pointed out many times, if both of them were in reasonable fear, Zimmerman still had the right to defend himself. I’m going to give the edge to the person without a gun being followed by a menacing-looking stranger, in the “who was more fearful?” stakes. > [@Steophan](#): > > So, congratulations on inventing an unsupported position that _still_ doesn’t show Zimmerman did anything wrong. You’re really not very good at this, are you? If you say so. > [@Steophan](#): > > So you acknowledge he was continuing the fight whilst on top of Zimmerman? No. I think TM was trying to get back to his feet while Z had a hold of his clothing. You do realise his upper garments were being pulled away from his body when the gun was fired, don’t you? > [@Steophan](#): > > Do you also acknowledge that the law states that Zimmerman didn’t have to consider the threat ended until Martin backed off and clearly communicated that he was stopping his aggression? If he was being held onto by Z, he couldn’t back off, as was apparent by him getting shot by Z at close range, even though he apparently knew Z had a gun in his hand. If you was sat on someone who you knew had a gun in his hand, would you hang around waiting for him to aim it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=341) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=343)