# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 343
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6843 "2012-11-02T13:54:32Z")
ps. The second “apparently” in my last-but-one sentence should have been an “allegedly.” ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6844 "2012-11-02T14:45:37Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > No, I’m presuming TM was innocent. > What kind of mark were you expecting then? The rest of TM’s alleged blows left no evidence, so why would you expect any here? Do you think there should be a mark equal to the one found on one of his fingers? > Disputed. > > None of whom could be described as having ringside seats. > > Yet no witnesses who can say for sure they saw TM land a blow, despite watching from multiple viewpoints. > > As bullet-proof as TM’s heart. > > Well, apart from Z’s own words where he says he had to be careful where he aimed as his other hand was in danger of being hit. Remarkable consideration there by Z, under the circumstances. > > I’m going to give the edge to the person without a gun being followed by a menacing-looking stranger, in the “who was more fearful?” stakes. > > If you say so. > > No. I think TM was trying to get back to his feet while Z had a hold of his clothing. \*\*You do realise his upper garments were being pulled away from his body when the gun was fired, don’t you? > \*\* > If he was being held onto by Z, he couldn’t back off, as was apparent by him getting shot by Z at close range, even though he apparently knew Z had a gun in his hand. If you was sat on someone who you knew had a gun in his hand, would you hang around waiting for him to aim it? Bingo. Dimmy, you’re wasting your time. I have figured this out. They’ll find some bullshit to explain this. Some feel that they should turn this thread into something OTHER than its purpose and shut out all discussion. They will use fallacies to do this…even **Bricker** pointed this out. Then you have the mocking of the intelligence of a witness (WTF does this have to do with her recount of what she heard that night???) and not so subtle jabs at her speech patterns as well as the continued portrayal of Martin in this black-male criminal archetype. Then these people think others aren’t smart enough to call them out on their shit. The bottom line is you have arrogance and bigotry here. Evidence supports Zimmerman, evidence supports Zimmerman, lalala. No it doesn’t. They continue to use the phrases that ZImmerman uses “doubled back” and “pounded into the pavement” as if that’s normal. Quite frankly, that’s bizarre. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6845 "2012-11-02T17:45:23Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Then you have the mocking of the intelligence of a witness (WTF does this have to do with her recount of what she heard that night???) It has to do with how she seems to be saying things that make little sense, like how she can hear grass. > [@](#): > > The bottom line is you have arrogance and bigotry here. Yes, you certainly do. > [@](#): > > Evidence supports Zimmerman, evidence supports Zimmerman, lalala. No it doesn’t. And yet you can’t seem to come up with any refutation. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6846 "2012-11-02T20:32:04Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > The post you are replying to was a piss-take post mocking your ability to get inside DD’s head and somewhow interpret exactly what TM did better than anyone else. The clue was in the part you didn’t respond to. All your posts to date have been opinion without evidence so I’m forced to respond to each of them as if you were serious. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6847 "2012-11-02T20:42:57Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > That’s your opinion and you are free to have it. Your charity towards someone responsible for the death of a 17 yr old who had been minding his own business before Z interrupted his life, is admirable. Martin wasn’t minding his own business, he was beating Zimmerman at the time. And he had to go out of his way to do it. There is no rational explanation for Martin’s location at the T intersection except to confront Zimmerman. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6848 "2012-11-02T20:58:58Z")
There is no rational reason for you to believe the 2 men were ever at the top of the T. The only visual witnesses to the fight all have the location being fairly near to where TM was found dead. Iow, nowhere near the T. Or do you have information I was unaware of? Remind me of the best evidence that puts them at the T and try not to mention items Z or TM had been carrying, that could have been put there after the incident by a man who had just realised what a fuck up he’d made. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6849 "2012-11-02T21:18:52Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Martin wasn’t minding his own business, he was beating Zimmerman at the time. And he had to go out of his way to do it. Actually, it was Zimmerman that had go out of his way – getting out of his truck to chase down one of those assholes who always get away – in order for the altercation to have taken place. If he hadn’t, Trayvon would smoking a fattie right now, and Zimmie would be free to roust some other kid he’s got the stink-eye out for. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6850 "2012-11-02T23:56:14Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Actually, it was Zimmerman that had go out of his way – getting out of his truck to chase down one of those assholes who always get away – in order for the altercation to have taken place. Any chance you can show the evidence for Zimmerman chasing Martin? I’ll assume you haven’t confused (or deliberately conflated) following and chasing, as the first is a perfectly legitimate activity, and the second not, and I’m sure you wouldn’t want to imply Zimmerman is guilty of anything without evidence. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2012, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6851 "2012-11-03T00:34:07Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > There is no rational reason for you to believe the 2 men were ever at the top of the T. The only visual witnesses to the fight all have the location being fairly near to where TM was found dead. > > Iow, nowhere near the T. Or do you have information I was unaware of? Remind me of the best evidence that puts them at the T and try not to mention items Z or TM had been carrying, that could have been put there after the incident by a man who had just realised what a fuck up he’d made. Sorry no, you can’t make stuff up again. There is no evidence that he went back and planted the broken flashlight. The dropped flashlight is evidence of where it started as are the witnesses who saw it. It’s all consistent with Zimmerman’s account which he made after going directly to the police station to make it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2012, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6852 "2012-11-03T03:36:29Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Actually, it was Zimmerman that had go out of his way – getting out of his truck to chase down one of those assholes who always get away – in order for the altercation to have taken place. > > If he hadn’t, Trayvon would smoking a fattie right now, and Zimmie would be free to roust some other kid he’s got the stink-eye out for. There is no evidence that Zimmerman approached Martin. There is no evidence that he chased Martin. There is evidence that Zimmerman called the police and arranged to meet them. There is testimony from Dee Dee that Martin told her he was by his house. There is a time gap of minutes from that stated location and Martin is now at the opposite end of the complex from his house. Zimmerman’s flashlight location is consistent with his account of where he was as is the location of the fight. Martin initiates the verbal confrontation per Dee Dee. All the evidence indicates Martin went out of his way to confront Zimmerman. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2012, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6853 "2012-11-03T14:23:24Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > There is no evidence that Zimmerman approached Martin. There is no evidence that he chased Martin. As far as I think I understand the meanings of the words “approach” and “chase” is precisely as far as I am confused by your comment. What definitions of these words are you using? > [@Magiver](#): > > There is testimony from Dee Dee that Martin told her he was by his house. Fort Worth is by Dallas. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2012, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6854 "2012-11-03T14:40:05Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > As far as I think I understand the meanings of the words “approach” and “chase” is precisely as far as I am confused by your comment. > What definitions of these words are you using? There’s no evidence at all for chasing, whatever definition you want to use. One could say the evidence shows they approached each other at one point, though. ETA My definition of “chasing” would be along the lines of “following someone who’s trying to get away from you, in an attempt to catch them”. Zimmerman did neither part of that, according to the evidence we have. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2012, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6855 "2012-11-03T15:50:16Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > Fort Worth is by Dallas. Well the people in Arlington would disagree but putting that aside you have to look at the context in which the statement was made. Martin said he wasn’t going to run to his house because he is right by it. Minutes pass before the fight begins. His house is 350 feet from the T intersection so even if he was standing there he could have walked the entire distance and then some at a leisure pace. Logically if he’s anywhere near the T he would have been seen and both state they’ve lost sight of each other. He is either at his father’s house or he’s hiding somewhere between the 2 points. If the fight starts at the T intersection (indicated by the flashlight) then Martin has to approach Zimmerman for that to happen. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2012, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6856 "2012-11-03T17:17:58Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > There’s no evidence at all for chasing, whatever definition you want to use. Are you not a netizen? Haven’t you come to realize that flexibility of language? Is it that you are just not an avid reader of political drivel? lol. I assure you that if we open the field to any definition I want to use, I can make a sentence with “chase” in it mean most anything I please. But, even within the confines of common dictionaries… > **[Oxford Languages | The Home of Language Data](https://languages.oup.com/)** > > Explore Oxford Languages, the home of world-renowned language data. [INDENT]verb [with object] 1 pursue in order to catch or **catch up with** : 3 try to obtain (something owed or required): **try to make contact with (someone)** in order to obtain something owed or required: (chase something up (or US down)) **make further investigation** of an unresolved matter. > **[Definition of CHASE](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/chase)** > > the hunting of wild animals —used with the; the act of chasing : pursuit; an earnest or frenzied seeking after something desired… See the full definition transitive verb 1 a : **to follow rapidly** 2 obsolete : harass 3 : **to seek out** —often used with down \ intransitive verb 2 : **rush, hasten** \[/INDENT] > [@Steophan](#): > > ETA My definition of “chasing” would be along the lines of “ **following someone** who’s trying to get away from you, in **an attempt to catch them** ”. Zimmerman did neither part of that, according to the evidence we have. It may be just me, but I seem to recall that there actually is some evidence that Z followed M. Maybe I am being too conservative in my use of the word follow. idk. I seem to recall Z acknowledging that he was following M using that exact word, “follow.” Obviously, ymmv. :shrug: As to “catch” again we get into more semantics if you catch my drift. Let’s just cut to the chase here, “Are you taking the position that no reasonable person could look at the info and decide that M did any chasing using the English language as we know and love it?” What about “following”? Could a reasonable person decide that Z followed M? > [@Steophan](#): > > One could say the evidence shows they approached each other at one point, though. Allegedly, the following… M came in from the shortcut as Z drove up the street. They approached one another there and then. Z stopped his car. M continued to walk toward Z to go past Z, which means that M approached Z at that point. M passed Z and then Z drove his vehicle in the same direction as M went with the ostensible intention of moving Z closer to the location of M. So, again, that sounds like someone doing some approaching if not chasing in some sense–ymmv. Then Z got out of his vehicle and ran, jogged or skipped again with the intent of moving Z closer to the location of M. Z then moved himself across the block with the intent of moving Z closer to the location of M-which may have another instance of “approaching.” And then at some point they arrived quite ear one another–close enough to touch. So, that again seems to be another instance of approach. ymmv. Personally, I think you’re overstating your case as to Z lack of, approaching, following, and chasing. ymmv As H.D. says, "“When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.” ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2012, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6857 "2012-11-03T17:25:10Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Well the people in Arlington would disagree but putting that aside you have to look at the context in which the statement was made. Martin said he wasn’t going to run to his house because he is right by it. > > Minutes pass before the fight begins. His house is 350 feet from the T intersection so even if he was standing there he could have walked the entire distance and then some at a leisure pace. > > Logically if he’s anywhere near the T he would have been seen and both state they’ve lost sight of each other. He is either at his father’s house or he’s hiding somewhere between the 2 points. If the fight starts at the T intersection (indicated by the flashlight) then Martin has to approach Zimmerman for that to happen. None of that seems to give us a very precise idea of how far M was from his Dad’s fiancee’s place. The various speculation based around assigning motives to M based on further speculation seems pointless and w/o much merit imho. It seems just as easy to speculate assign different motives to M’s actions to make the event seem different. But, in the end, it seems all to be pointless speculation based on speculation. ymmv. It seems to seem more ironclad of a point to a number of people. Maybe we can determine the exact state of mind of someone we have never met in a situation which we did not witness based on sketchy details in a world w/ an immense number of possible variables. How could that get off track anywhere? We could get some professional fiction writers to help us out. That might make for more entertaining speculation. Surely there’re some here on the Dope who have the necessary skills to weave a story of internal dialog etc based on a few details. But, I still don’t think it helps that much or renders any useful info. There are a number of people who disagree with me. And I have been wrong before. So maybe I am again. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2012, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6858 "2012-11-03T18:28:33Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > None of that seems to give us a very precise idea of how far M was from his Dad’s fiancee’s place. Precise, no. The evidence indicates he was not within eyesight of Zimmerman which puts him away from the T intersection. There are 2 directions he can go, one is toward his house which he claims to be right by and the other is towards Zimmerman. > [@PatriotX](#): > > The various speculation based around assigning motives to M based on further speculation seems pointless and w/o much merit imho. It seems just as easy to speculate assign different motives to M’s actions to make the event seem different. But, in the end, it seems all to be pointless speculation based on speculation’ > > ymmv. > It seems to seem more ironclad of a point to a number of people. Maybe we can determine the exact state of mind of someone we have never met in a situation which we did not witness based on sketchy details in a world w/ an immense number of possible variables. > How could that get off track anywhere?. > We could get some professional fiction writers to help us out. That might make for more entertaining speculation. Surely there’re some here on the Dope who have the necessary skills to weave a story of internal dialog etc based on a few details. > > But, I still don’t think it helps that much or renders any useful info. > There are a number of people who disagree with me. And I have been wrong before. So maybe I am again. There is no need to speculate on Martin’s motives or state of mind. He’s not on trial. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2012, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6859 "2012-11-03T19:09:03Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It has to do with how she seems to be saying things that make little sense, like how she can hear grass. > Yes, you certainly do. > And yet you can’t seem to come up with any refutation. > > Regards, > Shodan So let me get this straight: You question the girl’s intelligence (again, WTF does that have to do with her account??). You make fun of Martin (with your hair trigga comments). You ascribe archetypal behavioral characteristics (violence, excitiability, etc) to Martin, even though you have no evidence other than Zimmerman’s word and a fucking scratch on martin’s finger. So the checklist of shit you’ve written about: –lack of intelligence –prone to violence –“gangsta” culture (WTF???) in addition, you make fun of Martin. I really don’t know who you think your fooling, but it’s not me. Yes, you are a fucking bigot. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2012, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6860 "2012-11-03T19:11:14Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > It may be just me, but I seem to recall that there actually is some evidence that Z followed M. Maybe I am being too conservative in my use of the word follow. idk. I seem to recall Z acknowledging that he was following M using that exact word, “follow.” Obviously, ymmv. :shrug: > As to “catch” again we get into more semantics if you catch my drift. > > Let’s just cut to the chase here, “Are you taking the position that no reasonable person could look at the info and decide that M did any chasing using the English language as we know and love it?” > What about “following”? Could a reasonable person decide that Z followed M? Yes, Zimmerman followed Martin - I was contending that Martin wasn’t trying to get away, and using for evidence the fact that he had time to get to the place he was staying in the time Zimmerman was on the phone to the despatcher. There’s good reason for using one word rather than the other here. Following someone is, in general, a legal and non-threatening activity. Chasing is, without good reason, neither, and a significant part of this debate has been about whether Zimmerman acted in such a way as to justify Martin punching him. Chasing him in a threatening fashion might do so, and if there’s evidence for that, it should be brought up. If, as I believe, there is _not_ evidence for such chasing, I consider references to Zimmerman chasing Martin to be poisonous speculation, with the intent of eliciting an emotional, rather than reasonable, response to this case. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2012, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6861 "2012-11-03T19:14:39Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Yes, you are a fucking bigot. You are throwing around insults because you have no evidence for your position. Look up “ad hominem”, while your at it, as whether **Shodan** is bigoted or otherwise (he’s not) has no effect on the validity of his argument. Then look in the mirror, and realise that it’s you who’s making sweeping general statements with nothing to back them up, not those you are arguing (in a fairly loose sense of the word) against. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2012, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/6862 "2012-11-03T19:32:56Z")
For those who think TM ran down to his dad’s place and back again, consider this: if when Z said “He’s running!” TM had just started running down the dog path, even if Z was only jogging at a moderate pace towards where he’d saw TM last, how fast would TM have had to be going to be that far down the dog path that Z couldn’t see him running away? Or is it being suggested that TM would have done his running in the shadows on wet grass? Seems unlikely to me when you’ve got a good start and a helpful path to run down. Has the “right by his house” meme overtaken the “sneakily hiding and lying in wait” one now, or have they been combined to cover all bases? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=342) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=344)