# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 35
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/681 "2012-04-23T17:26:37Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > So Zimmerman getting out of his truck to follow Martin doesn’t count as “starting the confrontation” but Martin asking Zimmerman why he’s following him does? Even if that’s your contention, I seem to recall Zimmerman’s immediate response was, “What are you doing here?” So if the conversation is the key, then I vote the guy who responded to a question with a demand of his own is responisble for instigation. > > And that is just as much proof that Zimmerman started it as you have that Martin started it. No, following him definitely didn’t start the confrontation. Depending on _exactly_ what was said, the confrontation could have been started verbally, but that’s unlikely - it would most likely be whoever used physical force first who did that. As you rightly say, there’s no proof of who did that. So, there’s no proof that Zimmerman was not entitled to use lethal force in his own defence. > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Zimmerman refered to Martin as an asshole, and possibly a punk or coon, who was “definitely up to no good”. > > Sounds like evidence of instant hate to me. Not to me, and I suspect not to anyone capable of rational thought. Suspicion is not equal to hate. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/682 "2012-04-23T17:31:39Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Not to me, and I suspect not to anyone capable of rational thought. Aye laddie, I dinna think so either. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/683 "2012-04-23T17:34:02Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Not to me, and I suspect not to anyone capable of rational thought. Suspicion is not equal to hate. Mere suspicion is different than using hateful terminology to refer to someone and declaring that they’re up to no good for groundless reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/684 "2012-04-23T17:42:47Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Mere suspicion is different than using hateful terminology to refer to someone and declaring that they’re up to no good for groundless reasons. If he certainly said “coon”, there may be grounds for claiming hate. As it’s only audible on an edited tape, and even then not directed at anybody, I’m dubious. Also, he had reasonable grounds for suspecting Martin. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/685 "2012-04-23T17:47:25Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > I don’t doubt it. But I’ve long given up on Florida’s cockamamie laws which pretty much make vigilantiism easier to pull off. I’m just sick off all of these intimations that poor, poor Zimmie is being railroaded just because, gosh, he had to kill a kid. It isn’t really Florida laws. Based on many years of reading Florida newspapers, it was very hard to get a conviction from a Florida jury with any semi-plausible self-defense claim. The SYG laws just seems to streamline the process and provide civil immunity. If the victim was a burglar, then it didn’t even need to be plausible. From what I’ve read about other states, a lot of them aren’t that different. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/686 "2012-04-23T17:50:43Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Also, he had reasonable grounds for suspecting Martin. Was Martin in the neighborhood for illegitimate purposes? No. Was it wrong for him to be walking on the street? No. Was he trespassing on anyone’s property? No. Was he committing any crime or harrassing anyone or making a nuisance of himself? No. Was he intoxicated? No evidence of that whatsoever. So Zimmerman suspicion’s of Martin “being up to no good” were groundless. This is inarguable. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/687 "2012-04-23T17:53:06Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > If he certainly said “coon”, there may be grounds for claiming hate. As it’s only audible on an edited tape, and even then not directed at anybody, I’m dubious. > > Also, he had reasonable grounds for suspecting Martin. What grounds? Walking while black? Wearing a hoodie? ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/688 "2012-04-23T18:02:24Z")
Yeah, those grounds. What, that’s not enough for ya? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/689 "2012-04-23T18:07:49Z")
As mentioned previously, if the prosecution wants to maintain that Zimmerman was suspicious because Martin was black, they are going to have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. Garbled audiotape and unsubstantiated accusations work better on the Internet than in a court of law, fortunately. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/690 "2012-04-23T18:23:01Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > What grounds? Walking while black? Wearing a hoodie? Walking slowly through the neighbourhood, in the rain, looking at various houses. In an area where there have been several recent burglaries, that is certainly grounds to call the police, and to ask the guy what he’s doing. Just as Martin would have been entitled to call the police to report Zimmerman following him, and probably should have done. Just because some people will consider anyone “walking while black” suspicious without reason doesn’t automatically mean that anyone considering a black person to be suspicious is racist. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/691 "2012-04-23T18:35:32Z")
I think that the only part where race plays a role is Zimmerman’s initial suspicion, and it’s a big part obviously. Would he have called the cops if it had been a white kid? I also wonder at Zimmerman’s basic intelligence if he confused talking on a magically invisible phone with being on drugs. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/692 "2012-04-23T18:39:23Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Was Martin in the neighborhood for illegitimate purposes? No. > > Was it wrong for him to be walking on the street? No. > > Was he trespassing on anyone’s property? No. > > Was he committing any crime or harrassing anyone or making a nuisance of himself? No. > > Was he intoxicated? No evidence of that whatsoever. > > So Zimmerman suspicion’s of Martin “being up to no good” were groundless. This is inarguable. Martin was a non-resident of a gated community. The whole point of having a gate is for non-residents to keep out. There are a lot of black residents of Twin Lakes, but Zimmerman should know most of them by sight and more importantly they would know Zimmerman by sight and would not be inclined to run if they saw him. Martin was visiting a resident, but Zimmerman didn’t know that. Your whole argument is based on knowledge that Zimmerman could not be expected to know. Based on what Zimmerman knew, Martin was a trespasser. That turned out to be wrong, but if can’t discourage trespassers, then why bother to watch? When they actually met, If Zimmerman had answered Martin’s question, “Why are you following me?”, with “I think you are a burglar and I’m trying to keep an eye on you until the police get here.”, probably would not have helped. If Martin answered Zimmerman’s question, “What are you doing here.” with, “My father is visiting Brandy Green at xxxx Retreat View Circle.” would have defused the situation. BTW, should you actually use the word inarguable on the Straight Dope? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/693 "2012-04-23T18:39:24Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > As mentioned previously, if the prosecution wants to maintain that Zimmerman was suspicious because Martin was black, they are going to have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. They have to prove the criminal charge beyond a reasonable doubt. They don’t have to prove every single thing that the jury hears or can conclude beyond a reasonable doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/694 "2012-04-23T18:56:36Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > I think that the only part where race plays a role is Zimmerman’s initial suspicion, and it’s a big part obviously. Would he have called the cops if it had been a white kid? He called the cops on previous occasions on whites. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/695 "2012-04-23T19:01:33Z")
Orlando Sentinel April 23rd > [@](#): > > The newly unsealed court file offered bits of new information but little of substance. It revealed that Zimmerman has already pleaded not guilty, something that happened when defense attorney Mark O’Mara filed a written plea several days ago. > > O’Mara also demanded all the evidence the state has gathered against his client, something routine in criminal cases. What’s important in this filing, though, is the likely delivery date: this Friday. > > In a typical case, that would mean that as of Friday, all the evidence would be released to the public as well as O’Mara, for example, crime scene photos, Trayvon’s phone records, his autopsy results. > > But O’Mara and Special Prosecutor Angela Corey have made it clear they want to keep some if not all of those things a secret. > > There’s a hearing scheduled Friday, a motion by media attorneys fighting to make sure the evidence does become public. That would be great for us if the media motion does pass. For justice, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/696 "2012-04-23T19:02:04Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > He called the cops on previous occasions on whites. White teenagers walking in thr rain talking on the phone or whites doing something that indicates possible criminal activity? I recall one of his “reports” to the cops concerned two black guys…standing near the gate talking! OMG! ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/697 "2012-04-23T19:04:07Z")
[quote=“JoelUpchurch, post:692, topic:619125”] Martin was a non-resident of a gated community. The whole point of having a gate is for non-residents to keep out. There are a lot of black residents of Twin Lakes, but Zimmerman should know most of them by sight and more importantly they would know Zimmerman by sight and would not be inclined to run if they saw him. Martin was visiting a resident, but Zimmerman didn’t know that. Your whole argument is based on knowledge that Zimmerman could not be expected to know. Based on what Zimmerman knew, Martin was a trespasser. That turned out to be wrong, but if can’t discourage trespassers, then why bother to watch? QUOTE] Why should he know them by sight? Why should they be expected to know him by sight? Does the responsibility to know and be known only apply to blacks? Would Zimmerman be expected to know the white residents? Would they be expected to know him? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/698 "2012-04-23T19:08:27Z")
Regardless of if race led Zimmerman to be suspicious, there’s evidence in that 911 call that Zimmerman made a negative snap judgement about Martin. Even if we take Zimmerman at face value and accept that Martin was looking at houses, it is not illegal to look at houses. It’s not illegal to dawdle in the rain either. If Zimmerman had claimed that Martin was going up to people’s windows and peering into them, at least you could call that trespassing and/or an invasion of privacy or something. But Martin was well within his rights to do what he was doing. Since he made an erroneous snap judgement when he concluded Martin was “up to no good”, why should any us be confident he suddenly became a bastion of accurate reasonableness when it came to concluding he was at risk of serious injury from Martin? He very well might have thought he was danger, but did he have good reason to think he was in danger? I’m not inclined to put faith in his judgement, when he rashly and inaccurately concluded Martin was “up to no good” to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/699 "2012-04-23T19:20:47Z")
He made no “erroneous snap judgement”. He saw someone acting suspiciously and, as he should have done, called 911. There’s no way you can spin that as a bad thing. It is irrelevant if he was mistaken about Martin’s intentions, just as it’s irrelevant if he was mistaken about the threat Martin posed during the fight. What matters is if his beliefs were reasonable. Based on the evidence at hand, one cannot conclude that they were not. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/700 "2012-04-23T19:21:43Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Why should he know them by sight? Why should they be expected to know him by sight? Does the responsibility to know and be known only apply to blacks? Would Zimmerman be expected to know the white residents? Would they be expected to know him? Yes he should, but we are talking about Trayvon Martin. If he only knew the white residents by sight, That wouldn’t have helped and probably gotten him told to stop watching if he was constantly calling about actual residents walking at night. From what I’ve read the other residents did know him and many of them considered him a huge PITA. I doubt that has changed since Crumb is talking about suing the subdivision. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=34) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=36)