# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 357
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7123 "2012-11-06T15:28:59Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > And no, I don’t have evidence Seems to be a pattern. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7124 "2012-11-06T15:35:43Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > You can spin it any way you want to, but it’s all coming out of your ass. > > And no, I don’t have evidence that Z’s father being a retired magistrate had any sway on how Z was treated, but with the SPD’s reputation, it wouldn’t be beyond the realms of possibility, and if I had the resources of a proper investigative team, interested in seeking justice and not just papering over any cracks in the process, I would no doubt be able to rule out the possibility entirely, or prove the claim to be true. If you were interested in seeking justice, you’d shut the fuck up with the speculation about things for which you have no evidence. But you’re not interested in that, you want retribution for Trayvon Martin’s death, and you don’t care about facts, morality, laws, or justice if they get in the way of that. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7125 "2012-11-06T15:51:54Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > You can spin it any way you want to, but it’s all coming out of your ass. > > And no, I don’t have evidence that Z’s father being a retired magistrate had any sway on how Z was treated, but with the SPD’s reputation, it wouldn’t be beyond the realms of possibility, and if I had the resources of a proper investigative team, interested in seeking justice and not just papering over any cracks in the process, I would no doubt be able to rule out the possibility entirely, or prove the claim to be true. As a former PD in Virginia, I can tell you it’s highly unlikely. The title “magistrate” sounds impressive, but a magistrate is not a judge and has very little power. A magistrate can set bond for people initially arrested (until they see a judge), determine if police have probable cause to arrest (as police themselves do) and that’s about it. It was relatively recently that the legislature in Virginia began requiring that magistrates have a high school diploma. They are not required to be lawyers or law school graduates. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7126 "2012-11-06T15:54:38Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > So, if I’m a juror and Z has told me that at one point he parked at x, but the prosecution provides evidence that it never happened, proving that at least part of this story has been concocted, I, as a juror, have to forget that ever happened and just focus on the nitty gritty concerning the fight? It depends on what theory of the case each side is advancing. But as to the issue of self-defense, yes, whether or not he parked at ‘X’ isn’t likely to be relevant to his state of mind when he pulled the trigger, assuming he offers up self-defense at trial. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7127 "2012-11-06T15:55:03Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Seems to be a pattern. Funny that. I don’t think I’ve seen you have a go at the SPD for their shitty evidence providing skills. If they’d done their job properly in the first place, a lot of the doubts of the public wouldn’t exist. Sure, there’s still be the odd shithead who was ranting on about it all being an injustice and how Z never should have been charged, but at least you’d know the police had done their job to the best of their ability with no bias or favour to any party. But apparently, unidentified dead people aren’t entitled to a proper investigation - they have to have someone who gives a shit about them and who isn’t obvious scum fight to defend their name. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7128 "2012-11-06T15:56:37Z")
> [@Saraya](#): > > I agree with manslaughter–i will be happy if gets that. > > If it’s manslaughter, then it’s determined that there was no murder and there was no malice. > Manslaughter is effectively a term for ‘accident.’ It might as well be a case of ‘wrong place, wrong time’ > > Why would you be happy someone goes to prison for an accident? Not really. Manslaughter recognizes that although there was no intent to cause a death, a death happened because of the reckless conduct of the individual causing the death. I’m happy to see someone go to jail when they caused a death by acting recklessly. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7129 "2012-11-06T16:28:37Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > You can spin it any way you want to, but it’s all coming out of your ass. I’m not the one making things up. Let’s see - on the one side, we have folks like **Terr** and **Steophan** and **Magiver** , who keep pointing back to the evidence and explaining how it is relevant, over and over. On the other side, we have people like you and **betenoire39** , who simply make things up and then declare Zimmerman guilty. That’s why this - > [@](#): > > If they’d done their job properly in the first place, a lot of the doubts of the public wouldn’t exist. just isn’t true. You aren’t paying attention to the evidence they did collect, and you are making up evidence that doesn’t exist. Because the evidence we know about doesn’t prove Zimmerman to be guilty, and that’s what you want to see. And when you don’t see it, you make it up. That’s a pity. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Saraya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Saraya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saraya)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7130 "2012-11-06T17:01:23Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Not really. Manslaughter recognizes that although there was no intent to cause a death, a death happened because of the reckless conduct of the individual causing the death. > > I’m happy to see someone go to jail when they caused a death by acting recklessly. Someone shooting off a firearm into the air (which is illegal in some places) could result in the killing of someone. It was unintentional however because they committed an offense with the discharge of a firearm illegally, the consequential death means the lack of malicious intent is transfered to the killing itself. This is called Constructive Manslaughter? A mother leaving a child unattended for a mere five minutes, which then wonders off and drowns in their pool would be an example of criminally negligent manslaughter. Despite the use of the word “criminally,” she didn’t break any laws (I assume leaving your child alone for five minutes in your own home is not an offense?). I’d never be happy that anyone went to jail in these circumstances. The former was just having a good time, but his negligence resulted in a needless death. In the latter, the mother’s mistake led to her child’s death and that’s suffering enough. In either case, we would generally classify them as horrible or freak accidents - despite whatever legal jargon officially applies to describe it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7131 "2012-11-06T17:05:29Z")
> [@Saraya](#): > > Someone shooting off a firearm into the air (which is illegal in some places) could result in the killing of someone. It was unintentional however because they committed an offense with the discharge of a firearm illegally, the consequential death means the lack of malicious intent is transfered to the killing itself. This is called Constructive Manslaughter? > > A mother leaving a child unattended for a mere five minutes, which then wonders off and drowns in their pool would be an example of criminally negligent manslaughter. Despite the use of the word “criminally,” she didn’t break any laws (I assume leaving your child alone for five minutes in your own home is not an offense?). > I’d never be happy that anyone went to jail in these circumstances. > > The former was just having a good time, but his negligence resulted in a needless death. > In the latter, the mother’s mistake led to her child’s death and that’s suffering enough. > > In either case, we would generally classify them as horrible or freak accidents - despite whatever legal jargon officially applies to describe it. As to the first examople, I disagree that we should consider the guy shooting guns into the air as unworthy of criminal liability because he was “just having a good time.” In fact, it’s reckless to fire into the air, and he knew or should have known this. He’s reckless risking human life by doing so; it’s exactly the kind of conduct that manslaughter is intended to reach. The mother leaving the child unattended is more complicated. I’m perfectly prepared to let the court system deal with those on a case-by-case basis. ---
**Author:** ![Saraya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Saraya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saraya)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7132 "2012-11-06T17:13:05Z")
If your point was that ‘legally speaking’ the potential manslaughter to be applied in the Zimmerman case is more than a mere accident, then yes, agreed. > [@Bricker](#): > > As to the first examople, I disagree that we should consider the guy shooting guns into the air as unworthy of criminal liability because he was “just having a good time.” In fact, it’s reckless to fire into the air, and he knew or should have known this. He’s reckless risking human life by doing so; it’s exactly the kind of conduct that manslaughter is intended to reach. > > The mother leaving the child unattended is more complicated. I’m perfectly prepared to let the court system deal with those on a case-by-case basis. I find it always complicated with manslaughter. Throw in state specific variations and ..well it’s never black and white. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7133 "2012-11-06T18:08:36Z")
> [@Saraya](#): > > well it’s never black and white. True. Sometimes it’s black, and half-Peruvian. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Gukumatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/74df32/32.png) [@Gukumatz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gukumatz)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7134 "2012-11-06T19:28:17Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > If you were interested in seeking justice, you’d shut the fuck up with the speculation about things for which you have no evidence. But you’re not interested in that, you want retribution for Trayvon Martin’s death, and you don’t care about facts, morality, laws, or justice if they get in the way of that. **[Mod]** You don’t tell other posters to “shut the fuck up” in IMHO. If this thread is to remain open, keep it civil. **[/Mod]** Gukumatz, IMHO Moderator ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7135 "2012-11-06T19:35:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > As a former PD in Virginia, I can tell you it’s highly unlikely. > > The title “magistrate” sounds impressive, but a magistrate is not a judge and has very little power. A magistrate can set bond for people initially arrested (until they see a judge), determine if police have probable cause to arrest (as police themselves do) and that’s about it. It was relatively recently that the legislature in Virginia began requiring that magistrates have a high school diploma. They are not required to be lawyers or law school graduates. Okay, in that case, I’d have one member of my investigative team just do a little check on whether Zimmerman Snr was pally with Wolfenstein, Lee, or anyone else who might have been able to oil the wheels of progress and make George’s interrogation as pleasant as possible, if only to satisfy my own curiosity. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7136 "2012-11-06T19:40:03Z")
> [@Gukumatz](#): > > **[Mod]** > > You don’t tell other posters to “shut the fuck up” in IMHO. > > If this thread is to remain open, keep it civil. > > **[/Mod]** > > Gukumatz, > IMHO Moderator You are correct, in that I didn’t tell him to do any such thing. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7137 "2012-11-06T20:21:56Z")
For those of you harping on about how great a job of evidence collecting was done before they released Z, do you want to address how the first officer on scene makes no mention of the person already there with a flashlight, and who he allows to take a photo of Z’s head? See Smith’s report below for a great example of what a sterling job the SPD have done on this case. > **[Trayvon Martin Police Report | PDF](https://www.scribd.com/document/86948628/Trayvon-Martin-Police-Report)** > > Scribd is the world's largest social reading and publishing site. Can there be any reason for the omission of this important witness other than punishable negligence or even more punishable favouritism to George? Does anyone know if Officer Smith is one of the cops Z went out on patrol with? ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7138 "2012-11-06T20:31:30Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > As a former PD in Virginia, I can tell you it’s highly unlikely. > > The title “magistrate” sounds impressive, but a magistrate is not a judge and has very little power. A magistrate can set bond for people initially arrested (until they see a judge), determine if police have probable cause to arrest (as police themselves do) and that’s about it. It was relatively recently that the legislature in Virginia began requiring that magistrates have a high school diploma. They are not required to be lawyers or law school graduates. Oh, and btw, it’s not like I’m the only one who’s given thought to such a possibility. [http://lawenforcementtoday.com/tag/police-report/](http://lawenforcementtoday.com/tag/police-report/) > [@](#): > > \*Now some journalists are suggesting that Zimmerman’s father, a retired Virginia judge, may have used connections to pressure police into releasing his son from custody. > > So we’re still waiting to find out what really happened in Sanford on February 26.\* > > Jean Reynolds, Ph.D. is Professor Emeritus of English at Polk State College, where she taught report writing and communication skills in the criminal justice program. Here’s another instance of her sharing my concerns. > [@](#): > > Amid all the controversy, there’s one topic I haven’t yet heard much talk about: Officer Timothy Smith’s police report. If it had been properly written, much of this controversy could have been avoided—at least that’s what I thought when this story first broke. Now, as more information becomes available, I’m beginning to think that the problematic police report might have been an early sign that something else was seriously wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7139 "2012-11-06T20:38:22Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Oh, and btw, it’s not like I’m the only one who’s given thought to such a possibility. > > [http://lawenforcementtoday.com/tag/police-report/](http://lawenforcementtoday.com/tag/police-report/) > > Here’s another instance of her sharing my concerns. Dr. Reynolds may well be a fine writer, and writing teacher. But her admonishments about precision in writing are belied by her own words when she describes Zimmerman’s father as a “retired Virginia judge.” A judge, in Virginia or elsewhere, is typically a person who is himself a lawyer, and a member of the state bar. A magistrate, in Virginia, is someone who does not have to be a lawyer, or even a graduate of a law school, and as I mentioned earlier did not until recently even have to be a high school graduate. So in my view, anyone who speculated that this may have had some influence did so out of a lack of knowledge about what a Virginia magistrate is. A magistrate is most emphatically NOT a judge. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7140 "2012-11-06T20:39:11Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I’m not the one making things up. > > Let’s see - on the one side, we have folks like **Terr** and **Steophan** and **Magiver** , who keep pointing back to the evidence and explaining how it is relevant, over and over. > > On the other side, we have people like you and **betenoire39** , who simply make things up and then declare Zimmerman guilty. > > That’s why this - just isn’t true. You aren’t paying attention to the evidence they did collect, and you are making up evidence that doesn’t exist. Because the evidence we know about doesn’t prove Zimmerman to be guilty, and that’s what you want to see. And when you don’t see it, you make it up. > > That’s a pity. > > Regards, > Shodan We are paying attention to the evidence. And unfortunately, we’re coming to completely different conclusions than you. As was said before YOU ARE\*\* INTERPRETING\*\* the evidence one way. We are **INTERPRETING** the evidence another way. You are interpreting this through the lens of a feral black male. That’s why you made fun of the dead boy and said all sorts of shit about his “culture” and other garbage based on your distorted view of certain groups of people. That’s why you insult the intelligence of a possible witness. And you really think no one is smart enough to challenge you? Unfortunately, I have read most of your posts, and you’re not fooling me. Make shit up?? You have some nerve. I do not accept your interpretation. I don’t have to. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7141 "2012-11-06T20:42:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Dr. Reynolds may well be a fine writer, and writing teacher. But her admonishments about precision in writing are belied by her own words when she describes Zimmerman’s father as a “retired Virginia judge.” > > A judge, in Virginia or elsewhere, is typically a person who is himself a lawyer, and a member of the state bar. A magistrate, in Virginia, is someone who does not have to be a lawyer, or even a graduate of a law school, and as I mentioned earlier did not until recently even have to be a high school graduate. > > So in my view, anyone who speculated that this may have had some influence did so out of a lack of knowledge about what a Virginia magistrate is. A magistrate is most emphatically NOT a judge. I knew you were going to home in on that. It doesn’t really matter whether he’s a judge or magistrate - the issue is does he have any connections among such circles, not whether he has any official authority or credibility. Or are you telling me magistrates and judges NEVER mix in the same circles? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2012, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7142 "2012-11-06T21:58:39Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > We are paying attention to the evidence. > And unfortunately, we’re coming to completely different conclusions than you. No, you aren’t paying any attention to the evidence. That’s why you can never come up with any evidence for the stuff you post. > [@](#): > > Unfortunately, I have read most of your posts, and you’re not fooling me. Well, someone is. > [@](#): > > Make shit up?? You have some nerve. You claimed to believe that Zimmerman did not act alone, way back when you first popped into the thread. I never did see any evidence for that, so I am afraid the characterization of your posts as “making things up” has to stand. [QUOTE=dimmy derko] Or are you telling me magistrates and judges NEVER mix in the same circles? [/QUOTE] Zimmerman’s father is in Virginia, and the Sanford PD is in Florida. You do know those are two different states, don’t you? Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=356) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=358)