# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 359
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2012, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7163 "2012-11-07T13:47:50Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > You seem to be missing a very important point. I don’t HAVE to provide anything. Absolutely true. If you want to make things up out of whole cloth, no one can stop you. No more than anyone can stop me from pointing it out when you do. Like I said earlier, the ones who are the most vehement about Zimmerman’s guilt seem to be the ones most prone to misrepresentation, and most likely to make assertions not based on fact. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2012, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7164 "2012-11-07T13:52:07Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Considering that there is no evidence either of incompetence or of bias, you are incorrect. Btw, if you don’t believe there was any incompetence, how do you explain the arresting officer - who was supposedly on scene immediately and cuffing Z within moments - not mentioning the witness who was there before him with a flashlight and who had already photographed Z’s wounds?\* - The photos of the back of Z’s head taken on scene clearly show that Z is not cuffed at that point. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2012, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7165 "2012-11-07T14:03:48Z")
How much weight can we ascribe to the arresting officer’s testimony that Z’s face was half covered in blood, when neither of them seem to have noticed the guy with a flashlight who was there before them? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2012, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7166 "2012-11-07T14:04:10Z")
So you can tell if he is handcuffed by looking at the back of his head? That’s a nice trick. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2012, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7167 "2012-11-07T14:12:18Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > How much weight can we ascribe to the arresting officer’s testimony that Z’s face was half covered in blood, when neither of them seem to have noticed the guy with a flashlight who was there before them? It was the EMT who testified that. It’s almost like you’re actively working at not being credible. First it was the blatant misrepresentation of what Zimmerman said, then completely unsubstantiated crap about undue influence, now you are blaming the police for doing things they didn’t do. Do you get some kind of kick out of being proven wrong? If so, you must be happy to the point of delirium. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2012, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7168 "2012-11-07T14:38:35Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Btw, if you don’t believe there was any incompetence, how do you explain the arresting officer - who was supposedly on scene immediately and cuffing Z within moments - not mentioning the witness who was there before him with a flashlight and who had already photographed Z’s wounds? I guess it would be helpful if you could show that this deviates from published department guidelines or that the way things were handled is substantially different than in other cities that average 4 or 5 murders annually. I would not expect them to be as adept, thorough, or practiced as say the Miami police department dealing with 60-70 murders per year. You are right, it could be incompetence or corruption. Or it could just be unfamiliarity and lack of experience. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2012, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7169 "2012-11-07T14:41:01Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So you can tell if he is handcuffed by looking at the back of his head? That’s a nice trick. > > Regards, > Shodan You’re really pretty shit at this observation business, aren’t you? Have a look at the photo here and note the alternating light and dark bits on Z’s jacket sleeves. [http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=I.4848073975464244&pid=15.1](http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=I.4848073975464244&pid=15.1) Then look at the photo taken on scene here [http://www.nypost.com/r/nypost/2012/04/20/news/web\_photos/ht\_george\_zimmerman\_head\_dm\_120419\_wmain082734--525x275.jpg](http://www.nypost.com/r/nypost/2012/04/20/news/web_photos/ht_george_zimmerman_head_dm_120419_wmain082734--525x275.jpg) and tell me he is not making a phone call, or at least holding something to his ear. (I wonder what that could possibly be?) Just in case I might just be imagining things, can someone else chime in on my observation here? ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2012, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7170 "2012-11-07T14:49:02Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It was the EMT who testified that. > > It’s almost like you’re actively working at not being credible. First it was the blatant misrepresentation of what Zimmerman said, then completely unsubstantiated crap about undue influence, now you are blaming the police for doing things they didn’t do. > > Do you get some kind of kick out of being proven wrong? If so, you must be happy to the point of delirium. > > Regards, > Shodan Oh, sorry. My mistake. The police officer just said his face and head were bloody, and failed to add to what extent. Now, how about that ninja with a flashlight? If he could roam around the scene unnoticed while the police were there, who knows what he could have been up to before their arrival? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2012, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7171 "2012-11-07T15:02:37Z")
What, exactly, do you think would be different about this case if the police report had mentioned the photographer? What about that report not mentioning him affects Zimmerman’s innocence or guilt? And, as someone previously asked, what investigative guidelines were not followed by the police? ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2012, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7172 "2012-11-07T15:15:03Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > What, exactly, do you think would be different about this case if the police report had mentioned the photographer? What about that report not mentioning him affects Zimmerman’s innocence or guilt? > > And, as someone previously asked, what investigative guidelines were not followed by the police? If this is the guy who came around the corner after the gunshot(pretty brave of him, going by the responses of everybody else in the neighbourhood), saw Z straddling TM and was also able to tell straightaway that TM had been shot in the chest because he could see the powder burns, it shows Z was absolutely lying when he says TM was face down when he dived on him to restrain him. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2012, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7173 "2012-11-07T15:29:57Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > If this is the guy who came around the corner after the gunshot(pretty brave of him, going by the responses of everybody else in the neighbourhood), saw Z straddling TM and was also able to tell straightaway that TM had been shot in the chest because he could see the powder burns, it shows Z was absolutely lying when he says TM was face down when he dived on him to restrain him. Okay… Firstly, well done on actually interpreting some evidence for once. Sadly, your response has nothing to do with my question… Which was, what do you think the cops did wrong? (I’ve put it in small words this time, in case the big ones were too hard). ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2012, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7174 "2012-11-07T15:49:37Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Okay… Firstly, well done on actually interpreting some evidence for once. Sadly, your response has nothing to do with my question… If you say so. As for interpreting evidence once, how about my interpretation of Z’s on-scene head wound photo? Do you still think Z was cuffed when the photos’s of his head were taken? In this witness list [here](http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/) there are 2 witnesses(4 and 7) for who there is no indication of their part. Do you think the first person on the scene is one of them and do you have any idea why their details are being kept quiet? > [@Steophan](#): > > Which was, what do you think the cops did wrong? (I’ve put it in small words this time, in case the big ones were too hard). In small words, they accepted Z’s story because they knew him and didn’t know the dead person, and failed to look for obvious evidence like their struggle marks on the ground to confirm what exactly had gone on. It’s alright taking photo’s of keychains, flashlights and a dead body, but if they don’t even record the scene around where the fight has took place, they’ve failed in their professional duty. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2012, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7175 "2012-11-07T15:59:15Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Oh, sorry. My mistake. The police officer just said his face and head were bloody, and failed to add to what extent. Now, how about that ninja with a flashlight? What about him? The police saw that Zimmerman’s head was bloody, the EMT saw that Zimmerman’s head was bloody. So it is confirmed that Zimmerman’s head was bloody. > [@](#): > > If he could roam around the scene unnoticed while the police were there, who knows what he could have been up to before their arrival? What do you mean, what could he have been up to? We know what he was up to - he was taking pictures that confirm what we already know - that Zimmerman’s head was bloody. Not for the first time, you aren’t making sense. You are upset that the police didn’t collect evidence that confirms things that were already established, and that indicates that Zimmerman’s account was correct. And this shows that they are corrupted in Zimmerman’s favor. That makes no sense. And to repeat, what investigative guidelines were not followed by the police? Not “what you think they should have done” unless you have some way to convince us that you are not making it up as you go along. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2012, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7176 "2012-11-07T15:59:18Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > If you say so. As for interpreting evidence once, how about my interpretation of Z’s on-scene head wound photo? > > Do you still think Z was cuffed when the photos’s of his head were taken? In this witness list [here](http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/) there are 2 witnesses(4 and 7) for who there is no indication of their part. Do you think the first person on the scene is one of them and do you have any idea why their details are being kept quiet? You know, I got curious about the “powder burns” thing you said so I went and listened to Witness #13’s testimony. He clearly says (see [http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/witness-13-files-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case/](http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/witness-13-files-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case/) around 4:37 in second audio on that page) that when he first saw Martin he was lying face down in the grass. So - how does that contradict Zimmerman exactly? ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2012, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7177 "2012-11-07T16:00:09Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > photos’s I’m blaming this on my recent re-watching of The Twin Towers. I must have been channeling Gollum for a micro-moment. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2012, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7178 "2012-11-07T16:21:49Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You know, I got curious about the “powder burns” thing you said so I went and listened to Witness #13’s testimony. He clearly says (see [http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/witness-13-files-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case/](http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/witness-13-files-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case/) around 4:37 in second audio on that page) that when he first saw Martin he was lying face down in the grass. So - how does that contradict Zimmerman exactly? You’re right. He also says at 4.00 that Z was already on the phone. Which kind of makes a lie of Z’s claims that when the first person with a flashlight came around the corner, he was begging for help to restrain TM. I’m gonna have to try and find that link where I read he had seen TM lying face up. It’s possible it was reported wrongly and he was talking about when the EMT were trying to revive him. As for describing Z as a man who’d just been through a brutal beating and a highly traumatic event, he doesn’t help Z in the slightest. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2012, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7179 "2012-11-07T16:29:57Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > I’m blaming this on my recent re-watching of The Twin Towers. I must have been channeling Gollum for a micro-moment. I figured it was just another Britishism. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2012, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7180 "2012-11-07T16:33:37Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > I figured it was just another Britishism. Show some respect. You’d be speaking Spanish, French or German, but for us Brits. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2012, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7181 "2012-11-07T16:41:50Z")
Here’s a snippet from Z’s first statement to Serino, nearly 5 hours after the event. > [@](#): > > Zimmerman: And when he was hitting me, I don’t know what he was hitting me with. I thought he had something in his hands… > Serino: Uh huh. > Zimmerman: So I grabbed his hands when I was on top of him and I spread his hands away from his body… > Serino: Uh huh. > Zimmerman: Cause he was still talking. And I was on top of him. And that’s when somebody came and they had a flashlight too… > Serino: Mm hmm. > Zimmerman: And I thought it was a police officer so I got off of him. No mention of being on the phone and nowhere near his victim? What are we to make of this? Isn’t this omission at least slightly suspicious, under the circumstances? Do the police know who Z was so desperately trying to get hold of? ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2012, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7182 "2012-11-07T16:46:30Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Show some respect. You’d be speaking Spanish, French or German, but for us Brits. Sure. I suppose you could be speaking German if not for us Yanks. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=358) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=360)