# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 36
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/701 "2012-04-23T19:24:46Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Since he made an erroneous snap judgement when he concluded Martin was “up to no good”, why should any us be confident he suddenly became a bastion of accurate reasonableness when it came to concluding he was at risk of serious injury from Martin? I think he had some fairly ‘concrete’ evidence to back that up. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/702 "2012-04-23T19:26:42Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Martin was a non-resident of a gated community. The whole point of having a gate is for non-residents to keep out. No, it’s to keep people who don’t belong there out. Welcomed guests and overnight visitors do not fall in that category, and that’s the box Martin was in. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/703 "2012-04-23T19:31:08Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > But there’s certainly enough to submit to a jury on the issue if the only thing you look at is the affidavit. Which is all I did. > > Zimmerman was angry, using epithets to describe people he thought were like Martin. He went well out of his way to follow him. He ignored the commands of the police to do so. He carried his gun with him while he did it. During the confrontation, Martin was calling for help, calls ignored by Zimmerman who then shot him in the chest. I’m not sure what you call it, but that kind of evidence, especially the bringing the gun with him, is more than enough to establish a “depraved mind regardless of human life”. I don’t agree. I can’t find any Florida case where second degree murder was sustained on evidence of anger alone, and a number where the appeals court tossed it out and substituted manslaughter. And I absolutely reject the idea that merely bringing a gun meets that element, unless you argue to the jury that he picked up the gun and brought it with him, as opposed to his simply routinely carrying it as was his right as a CCW permit holder. There’s nothing in the affidavit that supports the idea that he went out of his way to find and bring a gun. Have you actually looked at Florida cases where second degree murder has been reversed and dropped to manslaughter? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/704 "2012-04-23T19:32:37Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Regardless of if race led Zimmerman to be suspicious, there’s evidence in that 911 call that Zimmerman made a negative snap judgement about Martin. > > Even if we take Zimmerman at face value and accept that Martin was looking at houses, it is not illegal to look at houses. It’s not illegal to dawdle in the rain either. If Zimmerman had claimed that Martin was going up to people’s windows and peering into them, at least you could call that trespassing and/or an invasion of privacy or something. But Martin was well within his rights to do what he was doing. And Zimmerman was well within his rights to do what he did: approach Martin and ask him what he was doing. Correct? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/705 "2012-04-23T19:36:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Have you actually looked at Florida cases where second degree murder has been reversed and dropped to manslaughter? Nope. I can’t say I’ve spent much time on this case at all. And, to be honest, I have absolutely no inclination to anytime in the near future. I think the entire discussion of the facts of the case, the charging instrument, and possible defenses is extremely premature and I regret ever taking a stance on any of the issues involved in this entire episode. I’ll leave you and yours to these speculations. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/706 "2012-04-23T19:38:24Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Welcomed guests and overnight visitors do not fall in that category, And of course, the difference is easily identifiable? Like those wearing hoodies are guests? There is a big red arrow that glows above guests? Oh wait, this is one of those, He should have known rules. I dont remember where I read it. Ive read so much on this case it all seems to blend together. That being said, one site, paper, whatever, reported that the neighborhood of residence had a crime spike recently. Zimmerman sees someone he has never seen before, and is just supposed to know by looking at him, whether or not he should be there. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/707 "2012-04-23T19:40:18Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > No, it’s to keep people who don’t belong there out. Welcomed guests and overnight visitors do not fall in that category, and that’s the box Martin was in. As I pointed out, Zimmerman had no way of knowing that Martin was a visitor and Martin punched him out when he asked him. If you can’t ask unidentified people why they are there, what is the point of having a neighborhood watch? You apparently expect Zimmerman to have a psychic power to magically tell the difference between visitors and trespassers. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/708 "2012-04-23T19:41:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And Zimmerman was well within his rights to do what he did: approach Martin and ask him what he was doing. > > Correct? I’ve never said it was wrong to approach Martin. Chasing after him when Martin clearly got spooked was wrong. Continuing to pursue him after being told to stand down by 911 was wrong. But simply approaching him, not wrong. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/709 "2012-04-23T19:45:13Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > And of course, the difference is easily identifiable? Like those wearing hoodies are guests? There is a big red arrow that glows above guests? . There’s a difference between: “I don’t know who this person is…does he belong in this neighborhood? Let me call the cops just to be on the safe side.” and “I don’t know who this person is…this must mean he’s up to no good. Let me call the cops so that this asshole doesn’t get away.” Zimmerman’s state of mind matched the latter not the former. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/710 "2012-04-23T19:46:41Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I’ve never said it was wrong to approach Martin. > > Chasing after him when Martin clearly got spooked was wrong. > > Continuing to pursue him after being told to stand down by 911 was wrong. > > But simply approaching him, not wrong. Wait a second. You said, “But Martin was well within his rights to do what he was doing.” I pointed out that Zimmerman was also well within his rights to take the actions he took. You then said, “Continuing to pursue him after being told to stand down by 911 was wrong.” That’s not quite the same thing. ‘Wrong’ in whose lights? Was it illegal? Was he not within his rights to do it? Yes, or no? Was Zimmerman within his rights to follow Marin even after the 911 dispatcher told him not to? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/711 "2012-04-23T19:47:54Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > I dont remember where I read it. Ive read so much on this case it all seems to blend together. That being said, one site, paper, whatever, reported that the neighborhood of residence had a crime spike recently. Zimmerman sees someone he has never seen before, and is just supposed to know by looking at him, whether or not he should be there. [http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/17/2700249\_p2/trayvon-martin-shooter-a-habitual.html](http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/17/2700249_p2/trayvon-martin-shooter-a-habitual.html) The answer may lie in police records, which show that 50 suspicious-person reports were called in to police in the past year at Twin Lakes. There were **eight burglaries, nine thefts and one other shooting in the year prior to Trayvon’s death**. In all, police had been called to the 260-unit complex 402 times from Jan. 1, 2011 to Feb. 26, 2012. “He once caught a thief and an arrest was made,” said Cynthia Wibker, secretary of the homeowners association. “He helped solve a lot of crimes.” Zimmerman told neighbors about stolen laptops and unsavory characters. Ibrahim Rashada, a 25-year-old African American who works at U.S. Airways, once spotted young men cutting through the woods entering the complex on foot, and later learned items were stolen those days. “It’s a gated community, but you can walk in and steal whatever you want,” Rashada’s wife, Quianna, said. They discussed the topic with Zimmerman when the watch captain knocked on their door late last year. Zimmerman seemed friendly, helpful, and a “pretty cool dude,” Ibrahim Rashada said. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/712 "2012-04-23T19:50:39Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > As I pointed out, Zimmerman had no way of knowing that Martin was a visitor and Martin punched him out when he asked him. If you can’t ask unidentified people why they are there, what is the point of having a neighborhood watch? He’d already made up his mind that the kid was up to no good, without even trying to talk to Martin first. That much is apparent on the 911 call. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/713 "2012-04-23T19:54:32Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > No, it’s to keep people who don’t belong there out. Welcomed guests and overnight visitors do not fall in that category, and that’s the box Martin was in. If only he’d mentioned that when Zimmerman asked, rather than punching him in the face. Or, if he didn’t to do that, called the police and told them, rather than punching Zimmerman in the face. Or, if he didn’t want to do _that_, walked back to the home he was a welcome guest in, as it’s been established he had plenty of time to do, rather than waiting for Zimmerman and punching him in the face. Any form of behaviour that one would expect from someone who belonged where they were would be acceptable, unlike, say, punching Zimmerman in the face. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/714 "2012-04-23T19:58:09Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That’s not quite the same thing. ‘Wrong’ in whose lights? Was it illegal? Was he not within his rights to do it? This is where I find discussing things with you exasperating. Something can be wrong and still not be illegal. A reasonable person should have the self-awareness to know that running after a stranger can be seen interpreted as threatening behavior, if they haven’t a clue as to why they are being followed. It’s not illegal to call someone a mean name. It’s not illegal to sit next to someone on a train and leer at them uncomfortably. But these things are wrong in the same way that giving chase to someone trying to get away from you is wrong. Walking slowly in the rain is not threatening behavior. Neither is looking at a house from a far. But hot tailing it after a frightened individual, making them even more frightened, _is_ threatening behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/715 "2012-04-23T19:58:13Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > There’s a difference between: > > “I don’t know who this person is…does he belong in this neighborhood? Let me call the cops just to be on the safe side.” > > and > > “I don’t know who this person is…this must mean he’s up to no good. Let me call the cops so that this asshole doesn’t get away.” I don’t think these two allegedly different states of mind are going to necessarily lead to different courses of action, and therefore not to different outcomes. [list=A][li]He looks suspicious [_]I am going to follow him [_]“What are you up to?”[_]Punching [_]Pounding heads on the ground [_]Blam.[/list]does not differ much from [list=A][_]He’s obviously up to no good [_]I am going to follow him [_]“What are you up to?”[_]Punching [_]Pounding heads on the ground [\*]Blam.[/list][/li]Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/716 "2012-04-23T20:00:44Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > He’d already made up his mind that the kid was up to no good, without even trying to talk to Martin first. That much is apparent on the 911 call. So what is your point? Martin could have corrected him by saying, “I’m visiting Brandy Green.” ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/717 "2012-04-23T20:00:49Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > This is where I find discussing things with you exasperating. Something can be wrong and still not be illegal. > > A reasonable person should have the self-awareness to know that running after a stranger can be seen interpreted as threatening behavior, if they haven’t a clue as to why they are being followed. > > It’s not illegal to call someone a mean name. It’s not illegal to sit next to someone on a train and leer at them uncomfortably. But these things are wrong in the same way that giving chase to someone trying to get away from you is wrong. > > Walking slowly in the rain is not threatening behavior. Neither is looking at a house from a far. But hot tailing it after a frightened individual, making them even more frightened, _is_ threatening behavior. So do you believe that someone should be convicted of a legal offense when they have not committed an illegal act? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/718 "2012-04-23T20:11:53Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > So what is your point? Martin could have corrected him by saying, “I’m visiting Brandy Green.” Martin asked Zimmerman a question first. “Why are you following me?” Based on Deedee’s statement, Zimmy didn’t answer that question. So it’s wrong to fault Martin for not divulging any information about himself without knowing the basis for Zimmerman’s behavior. It was a perfectly reasonable question he asked. For all the kid know, the guy was 100% psycho, so I don’t blame him from not volunteering the name of who he was visiting. Instead of putting the blame on Martin, you should be asking why Zimmerman didn’t announce that he was with the neighborhood watch. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/719 "2012-04-23T20:17:29Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Martin asked Zimmerman a question first. “Why are you following me?” > > Based on Deedee’s statement, Zimmy didn’t answer that question. So it’s wrong to fault Martin for not divulging any information about himself without knowing the basis for Zimmerman’s behavior. It was a perfectly reasonable question he asked. > > For all the kid know, the guy was 100% psycho, so I don’t blame him from not volunteering the name of who he was visiting. Instead of putting the blame on Martin, you should be asking why Zimmerman didn’t announce that he was with the neighborhood watch. Actually no, _you_ should be asking why Martin punched Zimmerman in the face. He’s closer to acting like a psycho than Zimmerman. Martin _knew_ he was not a resident of the area, so should be willing to accept a question about why he was there with, at minimum, the grace not to punch the questioner in the face. He could have told Zimmerman to fuck off, he could have walked away and said nothing, he could have continued to question Zimmerman. All reasonable responses, and if Zimmerman had responded physically to them he would probably be guilty of assault. Sadly, we have no evidence that he did so, and plenty of evidence that Martin punched him in the face. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/720 "2012-04-23T20:17:31Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > For all the kid know, the guy was 100% psycho, so I don’t blame him from not volunteering the name of who he was visiting. So Martin couldn’t answer the question because Zimmerman might be 100% psycho. That would be too dangerous. Instead, Martin (allegedly) punched him in the face, knocked him down, and began pounding his head on the ground. This is less dangerous than saying, “I’m visiting my girlfriend”? Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=35) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=37)