# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 362
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7223 "2012-11-08T20:43:31Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Supposed by whom? It’s not what Zimmerman describes as happening, there are no witnesses who saw it happen, and it doesn’t fit with the physical evidence or common sense. I certainly don’t suppose it happened like that. Put what you think Z described into your own words, so I can understand your grasp of the scenario he claims occurred. > [@Steophan](#): > > The most likely reason for the supposed inconsistency is people not believing that Martin could have moved 30 feet after being shot. It’s entirely possible he could. Zimmerman never describes any such movement after the gunshot, so if you are going to believe one thing he says, why would you disbelieve another? Z says straight after TM either fell or was pushed away, he immediately dived onto his prostrate figure and began restraining him. We know vaguely where this is said to have occurred, and it was a fair distance from the T. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7224 "2012-11-08T20:52:22Z")
Do you also want to hazard a guess at what you reckon TM was doing while he was waiting for Z to go over like a dying cowboy in a 50’s western? Is it really likely that someone who had just carried out a vicious, out of the blue assault, would not follow up immediately on such an advantage, or do you think Trayvon was toying with him, like a mean young cat with a poor old mouse? ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7225 "2012-11-08T21:34:43Z")
> [@sugaree](#): > > Zimmerman’s red jacket had dark-colored cuffs and patches on the sleeves and shoulders, as shown in the first pic. > > Really, if someone else had been in front of him holding a phone to his ear, that would raise even more questions. However, that appears to be his own arm. If Zimmerman made a phone call, it would have been entered into evidence. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7226 "2012-11-08T21:53:29Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > If Zimmerman made a phone call, it would have been entered into evidence. Sure it would. Like the location of his car was entered into evidence before Z’s wife or buddy Osterman got it out of the way with undue haste. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7227 "2012-11-09T00:47:27Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > If you’re hoping to discourage people from making shit up as they go along, you need to stop doing it yourself. You’re the one insisting the police were there when the picture was taken. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > You’re totally missing the point with this phone business. Z says he was on top of TM when the first witness came on the scene, NOT stood several feet away and either making or trying to make a phone call. This raise all sorts of possibilities for what he’d been up to in the minute before witness 13 arrived. Yes, I’m missing the point with the phone business. Are you suggesting the person talking the picture walked up to Zimmerman and took the picture and he was on the phone at the time? I just looked up the witness statement. He said Zimmerman asked HIM to call his wife. He said Zimmerman was covered in blood and Martin was lying face down which are verified by his picture and the police report. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > This isn’t just a slight omission. According to witness 13, he estimates there was about a minute between the gunshot and him walking around the corner with his flashlight, and he doesn’t say anything about seeing Z suddenly get up, head over to the dog path and begin making a phone call. What dog path? What are you talking about? And yes, the witness doesn’t say anything about Zimmerman walking to whatever the dog path is and making a call. So I’m confused about the whole phone call thing. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > No. I am saying that Z could not have both seen TM and began backing away from him in terror, and also NOT seen him until he was being sucker-punched. It’s clear that he saw him before he was struck. There was a conversation between them. What should also be clear to you is that he didn’t see him until Martin approached him from behind. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > In his own reenactment, he describes where he was and where TM was(about where the detective was standing, ie at least 10 ft away.), and if he started backing away hen, he’d have been even closer towards his car and TM would have had to put a lot of screw-back and side on his punch to make Z change direction and head the way he’d supposedly attacked from. He said Martin punched him and they scuffled and Martin got on top of him. What does his punch have to do with the direction they scuffeled? > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Look, this entire case will be far easier to understand for you if you just accept that Z is a lying pos. uh huh. To hell with the evidence, It’s faith that we’re lacking. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7228 "2012-11-09T01:22:37Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Btw, ftr, a real “sucker-punch” is one that lands totally without warning. One can only be landed from the front if the recipient allows them to get near enough to throw it and not be suspecting of it coming in the slightest. > > If you want to sucker-punch someone without blind-siding them, you have to get them to drop their guard enough for you to invade their space, and you don’t do that by saying “What’s your fucking problem, homes?” when you are 10 ft away. Yes, a sucker-punch is one that lands without warning. Zimmerman said he was looking down reaching for his phone and when he looked up Martin was right in front of him and struck him. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Under the circumstances Z was in, after following a suspected Goon in his car from the moment he’d entered the neighbourhood and then getting out of his vehicle to go walking in a dimly lit area after thinking he’d finally made a run for it, hearing this guys voice and seeing him come stepping out of the shadows SHOULD have had alarm bells screaming in his head, but all Z did was reach for his phone to call police he already knew were on their way, and who phoning again would not make them arrive faster. Zimmerman should not have taken his eyes off Martin. But according to him he did. Guilty of a momentary lapse of awareness. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7229 "2012-11-09T10:17:29Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You’re the one insisting the police were there when the picture was taken. _What we have here is failure to comprehend._ If I’m pointing out he’s making a phone call without any cuffs on, my suggestion is he was doing something he failed to mention in his statements. I’m not hinting at police malfeasance this time, I’m raising the point that Z’s account of events when the first witness turned up do not tally with the actual witness. > [@Magiver](#): > > Yes, I’m missing the point with the phone business. Are you suggesting the person talking the picture walked up to Zimmerman and took the picture and he was on the phone at the time? I just looked up the witness statement. He said Zimmerman asked HIM to call his wife. He said Zimmerman was covered in blood and Martin was lying face down which are verified by his picture and the police report. Listen to [the witness interview taken just over a hour after the incident](http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/witness-13-files-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case/), when it’s very fresh in the witnesses recollection. It’s only 3 minute long, so it’s not exactly a chore. (Listening to the 17 min one by the FDLE might be more tasking for you, so I’ll point you to the 4:00 mark.) In both those interviews he mentions nothing about Z still being on top of TM trying to restrain him, as Z claims. What are we to make of this inconsistency? Looking at it in the most kindly light, it at least shows Z to be totally mistaken about a key moment of the night, ie. the arrival of the first person after the shooting within a minute of it happening. > [@Magiver](#): > > What dog path? What are you talking about? And yes, the witness doesn’t say anything about Zimmerman walking to whatever the dog path is and making a call. So I’m confused about the whole phone call thing. The “dog path” is the concrete walkway that makes the T. That’s what I’ve heard it described as by many people. Was it really that tricky for you to deduce what I was referring to? Z is said by witness 13 to be on it walking in his direction and claims “it sounded like he was on the phone.” “Sounded like he was on the phone?” What do you think he meant by that? That Z was already talking to someone? Witness 13 seemed to know it was NOT the police Z was speaking to, as he asked Z "Why don’t you call 911? and Z replied “No, I just got off the phone with them.” So, if it was the police, there’d be a record of it, yes? It certainly wasn’t his wife he’d been talking to because he was insistent she be informed he’d shot someone. So, as well as “who was he really calling?” we’ve also got the question of “Why was Z so insistent that he’d jumped on TM’s back after the shooting and that someone had seen him in that position?” When we’ve cleared up your confusion over this aspect, I’ll address your comments on the start of the “fight.” ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7230 "2012-11-09T11:42:33Z")
In Zimmerman’s reenactment the day after, [at the 10:50 mark](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qfkRTC5gF4), Z gives the most detailed account we have of the moments after the gunshot. Listen to how detailed his interaction with the witness is, and note how he says he doesn’t get up until another guy with a flashlight arrives on the scene, who we know was a cop. Think about how reliable Z’s memory is supposed to be regarding the high octane moments before the gunshot, yet he can be this wrong in the moments immediately after. No mention of having been up on his feet and several yards away from the dead teen, and already over the shock of his experience enough to be able to be thinking straight enough to be informing his loved ones or who knows who, and talking as casually as if he’d just ran over a rat. ---
**Author:** ![Saraya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Saraya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saraya)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7231 "2012-11-09T11:48:13Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > That Z was already talking to someone? Witness 13 seemed to know it was NOT the police Z was speaking to, as he asked Z "Why don’t you call 911? and Z replied “No, I just got off the phone with them.” Isn’t Zimmerman talking about his first call to report the incident? Hadn’t someone already called 911 by then? ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7232 "2012-11-09T11:49:08Z")
**Within a minute**. Think about that. A minute. Most people would still be looking down on the dead person thinking “WTF just happened?” Not Cool Hand George tho’. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7233 "2012-11-09T11:57:43Z")
> [@Saraya](#): > > Isn’t Zimmerman talking about his first call to report the incident? > Hadn’t someone already called 911 by then? That’s an irrelevancy. It would have been interesting to have heard Z’s explanation for this inconsistency, and found out what exactly Z was referring to and why this wasn’t mentioned by him, but the SPD pretty much failed to ask a useful question to anyone on the night. What matters is his account in the reenactment is contradicted by the first witness on scene. If he can be so wrong about this, why would anyone be prepared to accept his credibility regarding other important moments on the night? ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7234 "2012-11-09T12:50:07Z")
I should have addressed this in **magiver’s** earlier post. > [@](#): > > Yes, I’m missing the point with the phone business. Are you suggesting the person talking the picture walked up to Zimmerman and took the picture and he was on the phone at the time? Yes, something along those lines. Listen to his FDLE interview and at 4:24, after Z has asked if he was bleeding, and w13 replying “Yes,” witness 13 says, “he turns around and kinda squats on the sidewalk.” I’m guessing that would have been the moment he took the photo, although why he failed to mention that, I don’t know. Thing is, he deleted those pics off his phone after transferring them to his computer, so we’ll have to hope there was some kind of time stamp sent with them if we are to know _exactly_ when it was taken. The question you’ve got to ask is, why was Z so insistent on convincing the detectives at the reenactment that he was still on top of TM when the first witness arrived? He’s had plenty of time to revise his story from the woefully ineffective grilling he was given nearly 5 hours after the incident, but instead of going vague, like he does on so many other crucial bits, he doubles down and adds more to what he lightly touched on in his first interview with Serino. _sigh_ Serino… what to think about this guy? He calls himself an investigator, but he’s either not gone over the statement made 3 hrs earlier by the first person on the scene, which totally contradicts the killer sat in front of him, or he’s that concerned about Z’s well-being, he thought it’d be too stressful to point this out. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7235 "2012-11-09T13:24:37Z")
If anyone who is reading this has experience with interviewing witnesses to a crime scene involving a death by shooting, can you comment on whether a 3 minute interview with the first person on the scene is par for the course? If you was going to mark this interview out of 10 on its ability to clearly establish what had been witnessed, how well would this one fare? Is this what is classed as professionalism in the SPD? The cop was more interested in confirming what ethnic background the witness thought Z was, than in establishing Z’s exact whereabouts when the witness shone a light on him, and whether he’d ever been atop of TM’s body. ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7236 "2012-11-09T15:19:36Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > If Zimmerman made a phone call, it would have been entered into evidence. That’s great, but right here we have a picture of him with a phone held up to his ear. So since we don’t have his phone records entered into evidence, I’m curious as to what that was all about. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7237 "2012-11-09T15:47:39Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The most likely reason for the supposed inconsistency is people not believing that Martin could have moved 30 feet after being shot. It’s entirely possible he could. See what we are going through **dimmy**? I am sure it’s possible Martin moved 30 feet after being shot. Just like how the global edema I brought up a few weeks back caused Martin to behave irrationally towards Zimmerman. In another universe. And they say my speculation is bizarre. They have some nerve, don’t they? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7238 "2012-11-09T15:58:15Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > I am sure it’s possible Martin moved 30 feet after being shot. > > In another universe. > > And they say my speculation is bizarre. They have some nerve, don’t they? No, in this universe. The one where Martin was still alive when the police came. This was all discussed upthread, and the conclusion - backed up by people who’ve actually shot things - was that it would have been entirely possible as long as Martin’s spine hadn’t been severed. Which it wasn’t. Sorry, though, for having the nerve to confuse you with facts, and speculation based on facts. Two things neither you nor **dimmy** appear to have much acquaintance with. Oh, and if you’re questioning whether Martin was capable of movement, remember the big fuss you’re making over Zimmerman restraining him. That’s unlikely to have happened if he wasn’t moving… ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7239 "2012-11-09T15:59:36Z")
> [@sugaree](#): > > That’s great, but right here we have a picture of him with a phone held up to his ear. So since we don’t have his phone records entered into evidence, I’m curious as to what that was all about. You’ve got to wonder why investigators who have seen this photo haven’t asked W13 exactly what was happening at this point. They should also have been quizzing him about why, knowing Z was using the phone already, he didn’t think Z was calling the police. There must have been something said to suggest this. He should also have been asked if Z ended that call and was trying to make another when he took that photo. Whatever was going on, here we have a man who just moments before felt his brains were about to be bashed out and was on the verge of unconsciousness when he was finally reminded he had the gun he carries everywhere with him, and yet within a minute of having sorted his attacker out, he’s trying to get hold of someone on his phone, and whoever it was, Z didn’t think it worth mentioning. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7240 "2012-11-09T16:14:25Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > See what we are going through **dimmy**? > > I am sure it’s possible Martin moved 30 feet after being shot. > > Just like how the global edema I brought up a few weeks back caused Martin to behave irrationally towards Zimmerman. > > In another universe. > > And they say my speculation is bizarre. They have some nerve, don’t they? It’s amazing how in the face of the information available, they can watch Z’s reenactment, find everything he describes about the initial punch from TM up to the point of the gunshot, totally believable, then hear him describe the moments after the gunshot, and again, seemingly totally believable, but knowing it couldn’t possibly have happened, and yet still have no doubts about the earlier recounting. That’s taking denial to another level. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7241 "2012-11-09T16:30:08Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, in this universe. The one where Martin was still alive when the police came. This was all discussed upthread, and the conclusion - backed up by people who’ve actually shot things - was that it would have been entirely possible as long as Martin’s spine hadn’t been severed. Which it wasn’t. That’s all very well, but the guy you’re believing says that he jumped on Trayvon’s back immediately after he either fell or had been pushed off Z’s previously lethargic body, so he’d have to be doing any moving with a blown out heart and Z’s 190+lbs on his back. Do you really want to go there with that one? > [@Steophan](#): > > Sorry, though, for having the nerve to confuse you with facts, and speculation based on facts. Two things neither you nor **dimmy** appear to have much acquaintance with. Says the guy who it appears wouldn’t recognise a fact if it was biting his nose. > [@Steophan](#): > > Oh, and if you’re questioning whether Martin was capable of movement, remember the big fuss you’re making over Zimmerman restraining him. That’s unlikely to have happened if he wasn’t moving… Oh, so now you’re suggesting TM wandered for 30ft before Z could jump on him? Why are you doubting Z’s dedication to stopping this guy who’d just been trying to kill him? And finally, how do you feel about him describing in vivid detail events that an independent witness will testify never happened? inb4 george has documented memory problems. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7242 "2012-11-09T19:13:44Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > See what we are going through **dimmy**? > > I am sure it’s possible Martin moved 30 feet after being shot. > > Just like how the global edema I brought up a few weeks back caused Martin to behave irrationally towards Zimmerman. > > In another universe. > > And they say my speculation is bizarre. They have some nerve, don’t they? Excuse me, but I don’t think I agree with you here. Can you explain why it’s so impossible that the possibility is extra-universal? Earlier in this thread we’d seen medical evidence about moving for short periods after suffering similar injuries, where the consensus seemed to be “Unlikely, but certainly possible.” In my own experience as a hunter, I have seen game animals suffer similar gunshot wounds and run fifty or sixty feet before collapsing. Am I missing something that makes it not just unusual, but so impossible as to be “another universe” territory? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=361) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=363)