# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 363
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7243 "2012-11-09T19:33:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Excuse me, but I don’t think I agree with you here. > > Can you explain why it’s so impossible that the possibility is extra-universal? Earlier in this thread we’d seen medical evidence about moving for short periods after suffering similar injuries, where the consensus seemed to be “Unlikely, but certainly possible.” In my own experience as a hunter, I have seen game animals suffer similar gunshot wounds and run fifty or sixty feet before collapsing. Did any of them have an 190+lb man on their back trying to pat them down for weapons? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7244 "2012-11-09T21:27:39Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Did any of them have an 190+lb man on their back trying to pat them down for weapons? No. But I don’t see that Martin necessarily did, either. I know you’re saying that he did, but I don’t agree that Zimmerman’s statements must be interpreted in that way. I agree it’s possible, but I don’t agree it’s the only possible, or even the most likely, conclusion. In seems to me you have chosen to construe Zimmerman’s statements in the worst possible light for him – that is, if multiple interpretations are available, you choose the one that’s most unlikely, or casts Zimmerman in the worst light. I suspect this is, at least in part, a reaction to the group of people who are interpreting his statements in the best possible light. And this returns me to my often-sung refrain: it’s important to understand in what context we’re building hypotheticals. If we’re just shooting the breeze on a message board, then some sort of a middle ground should be reached. But if we’re talking about a trial, and how evidence will be sifted by a jury, then I have to point out that giving every available break to ZImmerman is closer to the way a trial would go. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7245 "2012-11-09T21:34:24Z")
But either way, **Bricker** , it’s bad for Zimmerman. If he wasn’t on top of the kid–thus allowing the kid to drag himself 30 feet south–then that reenforces his lack of credibility. He claimed he was on top of the kid, holding him down. He never reported seeing the kid move south either. If the kid didn’t move and in fact, died right where he was shot. Then Zimmerman still has more than 30 feet left unaccounted for. Again, another strike against his credibility. Another reason to disregard his claims of violence due to too many falsehoods and unlikely ommissions. So what is the point of talking about wounded deer again? ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7246 "2012-11-09T21:39:39Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Sure it would. Like the location of his car was entered into evidence before Z’s wife or buddy Osterman got it out of the way with undue haste. Phone calls are recorded, if not verbatim, at least the time and number. ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7247 "2012-11-09T21:49:42Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > Phone calls are recorded, if not verbatim, at least the time and number. I might as well srtate that Officer Smith arrived at the scene, disarmed Zimmerman and immediately handcuffed him. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7248 "2012-11-09T21:54:29Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > But either way, **Bricker** , it’s bad for Zimmerman. > > If he wasn’t on top of the kid–thus allowing the kid to drag himself 30 feet south–then that reenforces his lack of credibility. He claimed he was on top of the kid, holding him down. He never reported seeing the kid move south either. Having listened again to Zimmerman’s re-enactment, I agree. He claimed that Martin was on top of him, he shot Martin, and then Martin sat back, Zimmerman rolled out from under him and on him, pinning him face-down. No mention of any real distance is made. > [@](#): > > If the kid didn’t move and in fact, died right where he was shot. Then Zimmerman still has more than 30 feet left unaccounted for. Again, another strike against his credibility. Another reason to disregard his claims of violence due to too many falsehoods and unlikely ommissions. > > So what is the point of talking about wounded deer again? I agree now that wounded deer have little relevance to this event. But I have forgotten where the thirty foot discrepancy comes in. As I watch the video of Zimmerman’s re-enactment, at about the 10:00 mark he describes Martin accosting him and punching him, roughly at the same location where he says the rest of the fight happened. I know this has been explained before but frankly I have no appetite to review this monster thread. Can you explain where that 30 foot figure comes from agian? ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7249 "2012-11-09T22:09:02Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > I might as well srtate that Officer Smith arrived at the scene, disarmed Zimmerman and immediately handcuffed him. That’s the same Officer Smith that, along with Officer Ayala, failed to make any mention of the first person on the scene in their official reports. With that in mind, how reliable is his testimony, really? It’s impossible that they could have missed him, so why wasn’t he mentioned? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7250 "2012-11-09T22:19:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But I have forgotten where the thirty foot discrepancy comes in. As I watch the video of Zimmerman’s re-enactment, at about the 10:00 mark he describes Martin accosting him and punching him, roughly at the same location where he says the rest of the fight happened. I know this has been explained before but frankly I have no appetite to review this monster thread. Can you explain where that 30 foot figure comes from agian? The 30 feet estimate (I’ve actually heard it’s closer to 50 feet but whatever) derives from the distance from the area Zimmerman claims he landed on the ground to where the kid’s dead body was found. Martin was not found near the T. He was found in the grass quite a bit of distance away. Also, at the PD station immediately after shooting, Zimmerman repeatedly said he was punched and immediately fell down. No mention of a traveling struggle at all. It wasn’t until the following day at the scene that he came up with that little bit about about stumbling. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2012, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7251 "2012-11-09T22:38:21Z")
The events Z describes in the reenactment seem to suggest that his movements from punch via stumble to landing on the floor, all happened in a very short time. He states quite clearly that he didn’t start shouting for help until TM jumped on him and allegedly continued his attack on Z. This suggests that no witnesses should have been able to hear the commotion moving nearer or further, as they were both supposedly on the ground and shouldn’t have been moving much anywhere, if Z’s own words are to be believed. While accepting that the location may have some strange acoustics, usually when a noise gets nearer or further, it’s because whatever is making the noise is moving with it, and nobody believes the 2 of them were on the ground up at the T. Even the witness who actually saw them on the ground says the yells didn’t begin immediately outside his home. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7252 "2012-11-10T02:04:53Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > _What we have here is failure to comprehend._ I think the failure is in your ability to produce a theory and then evidence to back it up. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > If I’m pointing out he’s making a phone call without any cuffs on, my suggestion is he was doing something he failed to mention in his statements. I’m not hinting at police malfeasance this time, I’m raising the point that Z’s account of events when the first witness turned up do not tally with the actual witness. suggest away. Where’s your evidence he’s making a phone call. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > [Listen to [the witness interview taken just over a hour after the incident](http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/witness-13-files-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case/), when it’s very fresh in the witnesses recollection. It’s only 3 minute long, so it’s not exactly a chore. (Listening to the 17 min one by the FDLE might be more tasking for you, so I’ll point you to the 4:00 mark.) listening to the first one taken just over an hour after the incident the witness said his wife looked out and saw someone hunched over. In the later interview the witness talks about Zimmerman asking him to call his wife and describes Martin’s position. The witness also said that Zimmerman told him he already called the police. All of this is consistent with Zimmerman’s account. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > [In both those interviews he mentions nothing about Z still being on top of TM trying to restrain him, as Z claims. What are we to make of this inconsistency? I don’t make anything of this inconsistency. The 2 stories are not going to be exact. They are remarkably close to each other. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > [Looking at it in the most kindly light, it at least shows Z to be totally mistaken about a key moment of the night, ie. the arrival of the first person after the shooting within a minute of it happening. What is key about this moment? Was there a fight? Yes. Was Martin on top striking Zimmerman? It appears so. Did Zimmerman shoot Martin? Yes. Was Martin found face down in the position described? Yes. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > [The “dog path” is the concrete walkway that makes the T. That’s what I’ve heard it described as by many people. Was it really that tricky for you to deduce what I was referring to? We call that a sidewalk in America. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > [Z is said by witness 13 to be on it walking in his direction and claims “it sounded like he was on the phone.” “Sounded like” is not the same as being on the phone. If he was on the phone and it made a damn bit of difference those records would be available. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > [“Sounded like he was on the phone?” What do you think he meant by that? It meant he was talking. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > [That Z was already talking to someone? Witness 13 seemed to know it was NOT the police Z was speaking to, as he asked Z "Why don’t you call 911? and Z replied “No, I just got off the phone with them.” He could have been on the phone, he could have been talking to Martin. Don’t know, don’t see the relevance. In the picture it doesn’t look like a phone in his right hand. It looks like something wider and rounded like a gun. And since Witness 13 asks him the caliber of the gun used I think it more likely that’s what is in the picture. I don’t see the relevance to the events that preceded the picture either way. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > [So, if it was the police, there’d be a record of it, yes? Yes. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > [It certainly wasn’t his wife he’d been talking to because he was insistent she be informed he’d shot someone. You haven’t established he was on the phone or the relevance if he was. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > [So, as well as “who was he really calling?” we’ve also got the question of “Why was Z so insistent that he’d jumped on TM’s back after the shooting and that someone had seen him in that position?” You haven’t established he was on the phone or the relevance. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > [When we’ve cleared up your confusion over this aspect, I’ll address your comments on the start of the “fight.” You’ve yet to produce any evidence about anything so your opinion doesn’t really matter until you do. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7253 "2012-11-10T02:57:18Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > That’s the same Officer Smith that, along with Officer Ayala, failed to make any mention of the first person on the scene in their official reports. With that in mind, how reliable is his testimony, really? > > It’s impossible that they could have missed him, so why wasn’t he mentioned? To what end does this need to be mentioned? You keep throwing stuff like this out like it has any relevance to anything. Were the other witnesses mentioned in the report and this witness left out? the focus of a police officer’s testimony is the person who died and the person causing the death. Witness information is taken in turn and treated like any other piece of evidence. It isn’t listed as one long running commentary to be dissected from the UK’s greatest internet detective. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7254 "2012-11-10T03:17:05Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > It’s amazing how in the face of the information available, they can watch Z’s reenactment, find everything he describes about the initial punch from TM up to the point of the gunshot, totally believable, then hear him describe the moments after the gunshot, and again, seemingly totally believable, but knowing it couldn’t possibly have happened, and yet still have no doubts about the earlier recounting. > > That’s taking denial to another level. It’s as if you are not capable of understanding the basic case at hand. I really don’t know how many times you’ve been told that it’s not a function of totally believing him. it’s a function of the evidence not disproving it. What is it about you that you can’t comprehend that? Seriously. You keep throwing up statements that start out with “doesn’t it make you wonder” followed by a theory with no evidence to back it up. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7255 "2012-11-10T03:27:06Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > The events Z describes in the reenactment seem to suggest that his movements from punch via stumble to landing on the floor, all happened in a very short time. > > He states quite clearly that he didn’t start shouting for help until TM jumped on him and allegedly continued his attack on Z. This suggests that no witnesses should have been able to hear the commotion moving nearer or further, as they were both supposedly on the ground and shouldn’t have been moving much anywhere, if Z’s own words are to be believed. > > While accepting that the location may have some strange acoustics, usually when a noise gets nearer or further, it’s because whatever is making the noise is moving with it, and nobody believes the 2 of them were on the ground up at the T. > > Even the witness who actually saw them on the ground says the yells didn’t begin immediately outside his home. The evidence of where it started is Zimmerman’s testimony pitted against the flashlight evidence and various witness statements of the noises they heard. The location of end of the fight will based on Zimmerman’s testimony pitted against witness statements of what they heard and saw, and the physical location of the body. It will be easy in court to narrow down where it took place. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7256 "2012-11-10T04:53:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Excuse me, but I don’t think I agree with you here. > > Can you explain why it’s so impossible that the possibility is extra-universal? Earlier in this thread we’d seen medical evidence about moving for short periods after suffering similar injuries, where the consensus seemed to be “Unlikely, but certainly possible.” In my own experience as a hunter, I have seen game animals suffer similar gunshot wounds and run fifty or sixty feet before collapsing. > > Am I missing something that makes it not just unusual, but so impossible as to be “another universe” territory? Bricker, Is it inconceivable that Martin moved 30 feet after he was shot? YES. Why? His injuries described by his autopsy. I will play the same gave the chorus has been playing with me. In that case, that’s where the chorus would have to produce some evidence that he moved\*\* this 30 feet\*\*, despite the gunshot. Keep in mind Zimmerman straddled him…so then they would be implying that Zimmerman shot Martin, Martin moved 30 feet away from Zimmerman, then Zimmerman pursued the mortally wounded Martin in order to straddle him. This would be the implication here. But then again, maybe the edema made Martin act irrationally…I guess the edema made Martin remember he was a “No Limit Nigg\*”. I am getting tired of this bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7257 "2012-11-10T05:04:25Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, in this universe. The one where Martin was still alive when the police came. This was all discussed upthread, and the conclusion - backed up by people who’ve actually shot things - was that it would have been entirely possible as long as Martin’s spine hadn’t been severed. Which it wasn’t. > > Sorry, though, for having the nerve to confuse you with facts, and speculation based on facts. Two things neither you nor **dimmy** appear to have much acquaintance with. > > Oh, and if you’re questioning whether Martin was capable of movement, remember the big fuss you’re making over Zimmerman restraining him. That’s unlikely to have happened if he wasn’t moving… Sir, we are SPECIFICALLY TALKING ABOUT MARTIN MOVING 30 FT AFTER HE WAS SHOT. Spare me with the garbage. You’re basically saying that since there was evidence he was alive when the police arrived, we can conclude that he may have moved 30ft. Bullshit, specious reasoning. And you think i wouldn’t call you out? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7258 "2012-11-10T05:16:25Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > You’re basically saying that since there was evidence he was alive when the police arrived, we can conclude that he may have moved 30ft. Yes, that’s correct, with **may** being an important word. The autopsy doesn’t show any injuries that, to my understanding, would make it impossible for this to happen. I’ve no idea why you’re claiming it’s impossible. Oh, actually I have. You’ve watched too many films, and believe that they show what happens when someone’s shot, and choose to take that “evidence” over that of people who know what they’re talking about, especially when it suits your preconceptions to do so. I’ll try to explain how it’s at least possible. Martin was not injured in such a way as to immediately prevent movement - for a single shot to do that, it would need to sever the spine, and that didn’t happen in this case. What happened, as you know, is that the heart and lungs were damaged to such an extent that they could no longer supply oxygen to the brain, resulting in death in a few minutes. Could you walk 30 feet - that is, 10 paces or thereabouts - without taking a breath? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7259 "2012-11-10T05:23:32Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Sir, we are SPECIFICALLY TALKING ABOUT MARTIN MOVING 30 FT AFTER HE WAS SHOT. > > Spare me with the garbage. cite that he moved 30 feet after the fight. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7260 "2012-11-10T09:45:28Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It’s as if you are not capable of understanding the basic case at hand. I really don’t know how many times you’ve been told that it’s not a function of totally believing him. it’s a function of the evidence not disproving it. > > What is it about you that you can’t comprehend that? Seriously. You keep throwing up statements that start out with “doesn’t it make you wonder” followed by a theory with no evidence to back it up. What is it about you that makes you so unable to comprehend the difference between a speculation thread and a courtroom? I am not here to make BdlR’s case for him, I’m here to give my speculation - based on the available information and my own life experiences - as to why I believe Z is a liar trying to get himself out of a sticky situation. If you don’t like it, you’re not obliged to join in. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7261 "2012-11-10T10:02:45Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > cite that he moved 30 feet after the fight. There isn’t one, but people seem to be suggesting that TM was capable of moving such distances, even knowing Z has admitted jumping straight on TM’s back immediately after he’d either pushed, or TM had fallen away from him. And he also says he didn’t get off TM until the first cop arrived on the scene, NOT _before_ W13 had even walked round the corner. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7262 "2012-11-10T10:42:04Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I think the failure is in your ability to produce a theory and then evidence to back it up. > suggest away. Where’s your evidence he’s making a phone call. Witness 13’s testimony and helpful picture. > [@Magiver](#): > > listening to the first one taken just over an hour after the incident the witness said his wife looked out and saw someone hunched over. In the later interview the witness talks about Zimmerman asking him to call his wife and describes Martin’s position. The witness also said that Zimmerman told him he already called the police. All of this is consistent with Zimmerman’s account. And what about the FDLE interview? Does that cause you too much cognitive dissonance to be able to take in properly what has been said? Do you think if the original inteviewer of W13 had done his job properly and pinned down W13 on some pertinent details, such as where was Z standing EXACTLY, not whether the person was Hispanic or not, he’d have said things differently? > [@Magiver](#): > > I don’t make anything of this inconsistency. The 2 stories are not going to be exact. They are remarkably close to each other. You have a weird definition of “remarkably close” fixed in your mind. > [@Magiver](#): > > What is key about this moment? Was there a fight? Yes. Was Martin on top striking Zimmerman? It appears so. Did Zimmerman shoot Martin? Yes. Was Martin found face down in the position described? Yes. It’s not “key” in the case-breaking way you seem to be expecting, but it conflicts enough with what Z says happened to make any reasonable person think “how could he be so wrong, and what else is he wrong about?” > [@Magiver](#): > > We call that a sidewalk in America. If I can get this so wrong, where else may I be erring, eh? > [@Magiver](#): > > “Sounded like” is not the same as being on the phone. If he was on the phone and it made a damn bit of difference those records would be available. So too should the location he parked his vehicle after following a young teen across a darkened neighbourhood and then killing him, but that doesn’t seem to be anywhere in the discovery evidence. > [@Magiver](#): > > It meant he was talking. And we’re querying who it might possibly have been to. > [@Magiver](#): > > He could have been on the phone, he could have been talking to Martin. Are you saying W13’s testimony to the FDLE was embellished to make Z look bad? > [@Magiver](#): > > Don’t know, don’t see the relevance. In the picture it doesn’t look like a phone in his right hand. It looks like something wider and rounded like a gun. And since Witness 13 asks him the caliber of the gun used I think it more likely that’s what is in the picture. I don’t see the relevance to the events that preceded the picture either way. The witness says Z was on the phone. He says Z crouched down on the sidewalk after asking if he was bleeding. He then appears to have taken a photo of Z’s ghastly wounds, ALL contrary to what Z said happened in the immediate moments when W13 arrived on the scene. If W13 had been given a diagram of the area and placed Z’s location when he rounded the corner as being nearer to the T intersection than to TM’s body, it raises the question of why would Z not want to admit his wandering. Had the officer who inteviewed W13 spent more than 3 minutes gathering this crucial testimony, we might not be arguing about this, but I doubt it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=362) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=364)