# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 366
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7303 "2012-11-11T13:51:03Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > No, it doesn’t. Z wasn’t transported to the T by aliens. that’s probably correct. He got there under his own power and how that happened is backed up by a witness who heard 2 people running. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > He got there by his own decisions, and we all know how warped they were. Yes, he was watching out for his neighborhood and was assaulted for it. Calling this warped completely ignores Martin’s assault on him. At best you can say that Martin defended himself from an attack. Once he had Zimmerman down he could have run away. He chose to continue attacking him until he was shot for his efforts. What you don’t have is the evidence that Martin was attacked. What you’re left with is Dee Dee’s account that should be in his favored light saying he started the conversation and it ended with an insulting question from Zimmerman and a subsequent fight where the only evidence of assault is from Martin. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7304 "2012-11-11T14:00:12Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > You defined the standards of a good interviewer; I’ve just provided the evidence that Serino doesn’t fit that bill. I stated in plain english that the followup interview questions should not involve prodding questions and it would hurt the prosecution doing so. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Oh, and did you see his little cig-smoking burglar story that you was “WTF’ing?” about in an earlier post? Don’t remember talking about it, don’t care, not relevant. If I said WTF I meant I don’t care, not relevant. Unless Martin stuck a lit cigaret in Zimmerman’s eye it has no meaning to the case. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7305 "2012-11-11T14:07:14Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > yes dimmy it would. But there is no evidence that this happened. How can you not understand this. There are literally an infinite number of things that could have happened that night. LITERALLY. Without evidence you can’t suggest it happened in court. We do have an ear witness that 2 people ran by. Now maybe she only heard Martin because he ran between the houses and circled twice passed her house. OR, as much as it pains you, it reinforces Zimmerman’s account and does not refute it that they both ran past her house. He has no way of knowing she heard this when he gave his statement. He has no way of knowing what people saw when they gave their statements. And not one person is going to precisely recall the events correctly. This is the reality of the evidence we are dealing with. In fact, if I recall correctly the woman who heard someone running first said they were back to back and then later changed it to a staggered amount of time. was she influenced by hearing other people talk or news reports? We can’t know. But we do know that both parties said they lost sight of each other and Martin had a head start so it’s logical to assume the 2 running events were spaced out. Look, I do get it. They could have been running in and out of people’s back porch doors like a scene from Scooby Doo, but unless there is evidence it means nothing. At this point, I’m more interested in what YOU believe and why you believe it, than I am in providing proof of Z’s guilt. Quit all the argumentative bs and nit-picking, and just tell me whether you think his accounts indicate decption, not whether he’ll be convicted for it. > [@Magiver](#): > > Yes dimmy, we all would like a video recording of exactly what happened start to finish. In 3D. From 8 angles of perspective. With Jesus Christ personally narrating the video. That would be swell. In the meantime we have to deal with the evidence at hand. If it had been investigated in a proper manner a lot of the issues we’re bickering about would never have arose. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7306 "2012-11-11T14:10:53Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I stated in plain english that the followup interview questions should not involve prodding questions and it would hurt the prosecution doing so. > > Don’t remember talking about it, don’t care, not relevant. If I said WTF I meant I don’t care, not relevant. Unless Martin stuck a lit cigaret in Zimmerman’s eye it has no meaning to the case. So why do you think it’s so important for Z to mention in his interview? Oh, riight, it’s not important and has no relevance to the incident being discussed. But Serino allows Z to go right on waffling about shit that shouldn’t even matter, if all that is important is whether TM attacked Z and Z feared for his life before shooting TM. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7307 "2012-11-11T15:00:37Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Look, I do get it. They could have been running in and out of people’s back porch doors like a scene from Scooby Doo, but unless there is evidence it means nothing. > At this point, I’m more interested in what YOU believe and why you believe it, than I am in providing proof of Z’s guilt. Quit all the argumentative bs and nit-picking, and just tell me whether you think his accounts indicate decption, not whether he’ll be convicted for it. First off, I don’t expect a very good recall of what happened from anybody. I’ve gone to seminars on recalling accident data and it’s appalling how bad humans are at recording information accurately. What we have to deal with because of this are: consistencies (which bolster the account), or outright falsehoods (which contradict the account). Inconsistencies based on “What if’s” don’t count and I have to put them aside. An inconsistency is Zimmerman’s account of the dispatcher asking where Martin went. That question was not specifically asked. It makes sense that Zimmerman remembers this because the dispatcher is attempting to gather as much information as possible. It’s an implied based on the conversation. I don’t think Zimmerman lied about this, I think it’s a function of faulty recall. Zimmerman’s recount of the events prior to the fight isn’t particularly relevant but seems consistent with the evidence. I don’t know if it’s true but I can’t prove it’s not and the evidence leans toward true. If you want to know what I “think” happened based on all the witness statements, the evidence, and Zimmerman’s account it is as follows: Zimmerman saw someone he thought was suspicious and called the police. He followed him visually to the point he ran after him. According to both Zimmerman and Martin’s account (through Dee Dee) they were both distrustful of each other to the point of a stare down. It’s assumed that Zimmerman stared back in the same manner Martin stares at him. It appears Martin ran to the back of the houses and was hiding somewhere near his house. He’s in an excited state because Dee Dee hears his voice lower and his breathing increase. Emotionally he’s pumped up from either fear or anger or both. He comes from the direction of his house on a diagonal and confronts Zimmerman. Zimmerman asks an insulting question. It’s not in the meek voice of the video re-enactment nor is Martin’s voice. Loud voices were heard prior to the fight. The exchange was made with emotional intensity and distrust by both parties which makes Zimmerman’s question even more insulting possibly made greater because he’s challenging a black person (and was seen as such by Martin). I think Martin was insulted by being challenged for his right to be in the neighborhood and attacked him under the emotional charge of the situation. From there it’s clear he pummeled Zimmerman without end until he was shot. Zimmerman then searches Martin for a possible weapon. There isn’t anything solid that I can point to that says Zimmerman attacked Martin. There is solid evidence that Martin attacked Zimmerman. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > If it had been investigated in a proper manner a lot of the issues we’re bickering about would never have arose. I think it was investigated in a proper manner. There are basic procedures that police are trained in to gather information and those were followed as best as I can see. I don’t think the questioning skills of the officers involved are the best in the business and that will come out in court but it doesn’t change the overall nature of the evidence at hand. As has been pointed out repeatedly the only thing that matters is the fight. Everything prior to that has no relevance. And by that I mean it doesn’t add or subtract to the fight. If this was a premeditated murder then the events leading up to it would be relevant to the next higher charge of 1st degree murder. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7308 "2012-11-11T15:03:52Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > So why do you think it’s so important for Z to mention in his interview? Oh, riight, it’s not important and has no relevance to the incident being discussed. But Serino allows Z to go right on waffling about shit that shouldn’t even matter, if all that is important is whether TM attacked Z and Z feared for his life before shooting TM. It doesn’t matter why he thought it important to mention in the interview. why do you keep dragging up really inane pointless trivia that has nothing to do with the case? ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7309 "2012-11-11T15:09:07Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > In the re-enactment he states that he doesn’t remember exactly how Martin got on top of him and he said he was trying to push him away. It’s clear from his description that it was a moving event. Apparently no one here has been in a fight When a bully slammed me against a wall, my next memory was being halfway across the room. To this day I can’t remember how I got there. Due to experience, in other cases, probably why the SPD didn’t make a big deal about it. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7310 "2012-11-11T15:13:08Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > How can it NOT be important? Are you saying that if Z’s car was parked at the first gap between the houses, ahead of TM’s route home, suggesting he had cut through the gap and headed TM off, that wouldn’t change your picture of how events transpired? It wouldn’t change my opinion of the level of Zimmerman’s injuries, the level of reasonable fear he was in, or the possibility of him getting out from under Martin instead of shooting him. Those are the factors to be considered here. How does where his car is parked affect them? > [@](#): > > I just want confirmation that Z is being as honest as he can in his recollections, wherever it is available, and knowing for sure where he got out of his car to chase in the direction of TM would be a point in his favour, and from where I’m sat he needs a few of them. I will continue to judge his honesty based on whether his statement fits with the observed facts. As his story is consistent with all the evidence (note “consistent with” does not equal “proven by”), I will continue to consider him not guilty of murder (note “not guilty of” does not equal “proven innocent of”). I will also continue to believe that anyone not proven guilty of a crime should be treated, as far as possible, as though they are innocent of the crime, and that no-one should be expected to prove their innocence. I am _certainly_ not prepared to consider that, if someone can be shown to have lied about an unrelated matter, they should be considered guilty of murder. I can’t even begin to fathom how you think that’s an acceptable conclusion to draw, and yet you’ve been drawing such conclusion throughout your participation in this thread. The short version - whether Zimmerman lied about where he parked has no bearing whatsoever on whether he murdered Martin. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7311 "2012-11-11T15:55:07Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The short version - whether Zimmerman lied about where he parked has no bearing whatsoever on whether he murdered Martin. The problem with even considering he lied about it is that there is no evidence he lied about. It’s a purely constructed “what if” designed to question his integrity. It’s like saying there is no grocery list, therefore he was lying about going to the grocery store. If he’s lying about going to the grocery store how can we believe the rest of his story. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7312 "2012-11-11T17:38:29Z")
If all that matters is the moments from TM’s supposed attack of Z, up to the moment he fired his gun, someone ought to tell Mark O’Mara, because he seems awfully interested in things that have occurred outside that time-frame where TM is concerned. > [@](#): > > O’Mara said, ”I have had anecdotal evidence that there were videos out there suggesting that [Martin] involved himself in MMA (mixed martial arts) fighting, he had an experience level with that…I think the judge hit it on head … that reputation for violence is an issue in this case.” > **[txantimedia.com - txantimedia Resources and Information.](https://www.txantimedia.com/?p=1778#more-1778)** > > txantimedia.com is your first and best source for all of the information you’re looking for. From general topics to more of what you would expect to find here, txantimedia.com has it all. We hope you find what you are searching for! I hope there is evidence out there and it shows TM well capable of handling himself against someone who actually wanted a fight, and that if he’d really let loose on Z, Z would likely still be taking his meals via a straw. If he was disciplined enough to be taking mma seriously, he’d have caused a lot more damage than Z claims he did. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7313 "2012-11-11T17:49:35Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, it doesn’t make me feel better. It worries me greatly that someone is willing to decide that someone’s guilty of murder based on, well, absolutely fuck all. The reason it worries me is that it could happen to me, or to someone I care about. Hell, it could happen to you and it’d still piss me off. > > **You want to call Zimmerman a murderer when _there is absolutely no way you can know that he is._** Indeed, no reality whatsoever. At least, I’d hope that it won’t happen in reality - it has before, and probably will again, and people like you are the reason it does. > > **Stop** basing your opinions on legal matters on films, TV shows, and your own imagination of how they should work, and learn the law, learn how evidence works, and learn how the court system works. Really? Dead body doesn’t count? Zimmerman’s pursuit? Inconsistencies in his story? I generally am not in the business of following (in the dark) 17 year old kids and with a loaded gun-- killing them. I guess it gives me some solace that if I did, you’d be behind me. You keep on bring up bullshit about films and TV shows…like that’s the reason why i am coming to the conclusions I am coming to? If you want to believe that, so be it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7314 "2012-11-11T18:07:03Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > If all that matters is the moments from TM’s supposed attack of Z, up to the moment he fired his gun, someone ought to tell Mark O’Mara, because he seems awfully interested in things that have occurred outside that time-frame where TM is concerned. > > [txantimedia.com - txantimedia Resources and Information.](https://www.txantimedia.com/?p=1778#more-1778) The occurrences outside the time frame relate to Martin’s propensity to fight. I would be surprised if this is allowed in court but Bricker can better address that as admissible evidence. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > I hope there is evidence out there and it shows TM well capable of handling himself against someone who actually wanted a fight, and that if he’d really let loose on Z, Z would likely still be taking his meals via a straw. Well that’s a lovely sentiment on your part but back in the real world where justice should be sought there is no evidence that Zimmerman wanted a fight. There’s not a scratch on Martin except his fist. Despite what you think of Zimmerman he called the police which is what he was suppose to do if he thought there was a suspicious person in the neighborhood. Despite what you think of Martin he did not call the police if he suspected Zimmerman was a suspicious person. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7315 "2012-11-11T18:10:41Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Really? Dead body doesn’t count? Zimmerman’s pursuit? Inconsistencies in his story? > > I generally am not in the business of following (in the dark) 17 year old kids and with a loaded gun-- killing them. Being attacked with no sign of your attacker letting up doesn’t count? Are you in the general habit of attacking strangers you think are suspicious or would you use the phone in your hand and call the police? ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7316 "2012-11-11T18:38:53Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Well that’s a lovely sentiment on your part but back in the real world where justice should be sought there is no evidence that Zimmerman wanted a fight. That is exactly my point. If Z DIDN’T want a fight, even when he was forced into one, and TM DID want a fight and was quite capable of putting a beating on someone, if he was as mad about being challenged as you suggest, he should have destroyed Z before he’d even hit the floor. > [@Magiver](#): > > There’s not a scratch on Martin except his fist. Exactly. So he wasn’t hitting Z over and over as Z claims at one point in his reenactment. > [@Magiver](#): > > Despite what you think of Zimmerman he called the police which is what he was suppose to do if he thought there was a suspicious person in the neighborhood. Z knew that the real villains in the surrounding neighbourhood did not hang around to be followed by car, when there were numerous avenues of escape. Remember “they always get away”? There is no evidence that TM was doing anything suspicious other than Z’s self-serving comments on his behaviour, which we all know was totally misinterpreted by Z. Or are you thinking TM WAS acting suspicious annd Z had every right to think he was a potential threat to the well-being of his hood? > [@Magiver](#): > > Despite what you think of Martin he did not call the police if he suspected Zimmerman was a suspicious person. He no doubt thought he had better things to be doing with his time than making a phone call to report some nobhead who should have had better things to be doing with his time. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7317 "2012-11-11T18:43:11Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Really? Dead body doesn’t count? Zimmerman’s pursuit? Inconsistencies in his story? Correct. None of those things, separately or combined, show he’s a murderer. > [@](#): > > I generally am not in the business of following (in the dark) 17 year old kids and with a loaded gun-- killing them. > > I guess it gives me some solace that if I did, you’d be behind me. You keep on mentioning all of this like there was something wrong with him following Martin, or carrying a loaded gun. There wasn’t. It’s currently being questioned whether there was anything wrong with him killing Martin, but as yet there’s no actual evidence that there was. And yes, if you were forced to kill someone in self defence, I’d say that you shouldn’t be charged with a crime for doing so. > [@](#): > > You keep on bring up bullshit about films and TV shows…like that’s the reason why i am coming to the conclusions I am coming to? If you want to believe that, so be it. So, it’s pure coincidence that your spurious reasoning and false conclusions look more like those used in fiction than in real courts? I don’t think so. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7318 "2012-11-11T18:45:36Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > He no doubt thought he had better things to be doing with his time than making a phone call to report some nobhead who should have had better things to be doing with his time. Martin had better things to do with his time, such as, for example, hiding in bushes waiting to jump out and attack passers-by? ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7319 "2012-11-11T18:45:59Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > 1. Being attacked with no sign of your attacker letting up doesn’t count? > > 2. Are you in the general habit of attacking strangers you think are suspicious or would you use the phone in your hand and call the police? 1. Yeah…such a vicious beating and only broken nose and some scratches to show for it. In 15 seconds, I could inflict more damage on a person than that. The only ‘attacker’ here was Zimmerman. Again, as I will repeat, Zimmerman bought the tickets to the show. He saw the performance. Problem is like a coward, he pulled out his gun. Common story where I live–people with guns who start shit, can’t fight and when the going gets tough, they shoot someone. I am tired of this. 1. What a bullshit question…I live in a big city…I see ‘suspicious’ strangers almost every other day. No, I haven’t beaten them: because they didn’t follow me and pursue me the way Zimmerman did to Martin. They didn’t menace me and threaten me. Being followed by someone for over 10 minutes would definitely freak me out. If they approached me and got to me, MOST DEFINITELY I AM FIGHTING THEM. I have the right to defend myself. And if I had a weapon, I would reach for it. It really boggles my mind how some people can rationalize Zimmerman’s behavior. What he did was creepy and scary as fuck and some of you see nothing wrong with that. As if Martin had an obligation to kowtow and be subservient to some fucking loon who had been pursuing him in the dark…you have some damned nerve. Martin had no obligation to surrender his power to Zimmerman. NONE. Who the hell is Zimmerman? God? What rights did he have over Martin? Who the fuck does he think he is? I truly wonder if you have shared your opinions to others, especially females, and see what they have to say. Or is this an internet only thing? They would be in a better position to understand, since they are more likely to know what Martin went through–many females I know have at one point been stalked by a guy. I have given some of my female relatives mace and have showed them self-defense techniques for a reason–because they might encounter a Zimmerman-like figure one day who sees them as an object. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7320 "2012-11-11T18:47:05Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Being attacked with no sign of your attacker letting up doesn’t count? But that isn’t what Z describes. He says he was hit once and then after stumbling hither andd thither, TM waited until he had fell on the floor, rolled onto his back, and offered an obliging position. Then Z didn’t seem to know what to do with his hands and allegedly allowed a 40lb lighter opponent to ragdoll him and hit him without any response. > [@Magiver](#): > > Are you in the general habit of attacking strangers you think are suspicious or would you use the phone in your hand and call the police? He didn’t have his phone in his hand, he had a flashlight in one and the other was free to grab either his gun or his phone, whichever would have been more useful at the time. Don’t forget, he’s following one of the dreaded Goons who had tried robbing his pal’s and he shouldn’t have been expecting to have a civil chat with him. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7321 "2012-11-11T18:51:38Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > That is exactly my point. If Z DIDN’T want a fight, even when he was forced into one, and TM DID want a fight and was quite capable of putting a beating on someone, if he was as mad about being challenged as you suggest, he should have destroyed Z before he’d even hit the floor. Another thing that I brought up before (as a martial arts practitioner)–Martin must have been an extremely poor fighter if Zimmerman’s story is correct (which of course I believe he’s lying). How could any skilled fighter who had Zimmerman “on the ropes” so to speak, allow him to get such a good shot on him? If Zimmerman was dazed and that disoriented from supposedly the first punch, why couldn’t Martin have finished him off? ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7322 "2012-11-11T18:55:00Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > But that isn’t what Z describes. He says he was hit once and then after stumbling hither andd thither, TM waited until he had fell on the floor, rolled onto his back, and offered an obliging position. Then Z didn’t seem to know what to do with his hands and allegedly allowed a 40lb lighter opponent to ragdoll him and hit him without any response. > > He didn’t have his phone in his hand, he had a flashlight in one and the other was free to grab either his gun or his phone, whichever would have been more useful at the time. Don’t forget, he’s following one of the dreaded Goons who had tried robbing his pal’s and he shouldn’t have been expecting to have a civil chat with him. I know…crazy. But these people don’t see this or even care. Mind-boggling, isn’t it? But again, I offered my reasons why I believe they don’t care about these points. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=365) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=367)