# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 367
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7323 "2012-11-11T19:00:51Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > That is exactly my point. If Z DIDN’T want a fight, even when he was forced into one, and TM DID want a fight and was quite capable of putting a beating on someone, if he was as mad about being challenged as you suggest, he should have destroyed Z before he’d even hit the floor. Well he did a pretty good number on him so you got most of your wish. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Exactly. So he wasn’t hitting Z over and over as Z claims at one point in his reenactment. and yet Zimmerman was injured front and back. Do you have evidence someone else did this? > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Z knew that the real villains in the surrounding neighbourhood did not hang around to be followed by car, when there were numerous avenues of escape. Remember “they always get away”? There is no evidence that TM was doing anything suspicious other than Z’s self-serving comments on his behaviour, which we all know was totally misinterpreted by Z. Or are you thinking TM WAS acting suspicious annd Z had every right to think he was a potential threat to the well-being of his hood? another dimmy derko original. You can divine Martin’s behavior from 4000 miles away. We should just filter all our court cases through you for sentencing. And no dimmy we do not know Martin’s behavior was misinterpreted by Zimmerman. What we do know is that Zimmerman took time out of his day to call the police regarding something he thought was suspicious. The phone call is the evidence of that. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > He no doubt thought he had better things to be doing with his time than making a phone call to report some nobhead who should have had better things to be doing with his time. and that better thing to do was confront Zimmerman and assault him. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7324 "2012-11-11T19:04:58Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Another thing that I brought up before (as a martial arts practitioner)–Martin must have been an extremely poor fighter if Zimmerman’s story is correct (which of course I believe he’s lying). > > How could any skilled fighter who had Zimmerman “on the ropes” so to speak, allow him to get such a good shot on him? > > If Zimmerman was dazed and that disoriented from supposedly the first punch, why couldn’t Martin have finished him off? Anyone who knows anything about fighting via sources and experiences beyond watching Jason Statham movies, knows that this fight doesn’t pass the smell test. If Z was as dazed and overmatched as he claims, AND TM was seriously trying to hurt Z, just one head slam against a concrete surface would have finished him off. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7325 "2012-11-11T19:05:08Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Another thing that I brought up before (as a martial arts practitioner)–Martin must have been an extremely poor fighter if Zimmerman’s story is correct (which of course I believe he’s lying). yes, that’s how I rate a poor fighter, someone who decks another and gets the better of him. Martin sucked at it. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7326 "2012-11-11T19:10:53Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Anyone who knows anything about fighting via sources and experiences beyond watching Jason Statham movies, knows that this fight doesn’t pass the smell test. > > If Z was as dazed and overmatched as he claims, AND TM was seriously trying to hurt Z, just one head slam against a concrete surface would have finished him off. If Martin “pounded his head into the pavement” (the phrase that the chorus likes repeating) for as long as he did, Zimmerman should have had more serious injuries… But, they don’t care. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7327 "2012-11-11T19:15:21Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Well he did a pretty good number on him so you got most of your wish. If you think a few superficial scratches and a broken nose are a “good number” after someone is supposed to have sucker-punched you to the ground, jumped on you and added a few more punches for spite, then when you tried to get up, slammed your head several times against a pavement edge, then your judgement is worthless. > [@Magiver](#): > > and yet Zimmerman was injured front and back. Do you have evidence someone else did this? No. Do you have evidence they occurred in the manner described? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7328 "2012-11-11T19:25:37Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > If Martin “pounded his head into the pavement” (the phrase that the chorus likes repeating) for as long as he did, Zimmerman should have had more serious injuries… > > But, they don’t care. Cite he should have more serious injuries? If Zimmerman is on his back then his head is no more than a foot or so off the ground when he tries to get up. The back of his head is covered with abrasions which is consistent with multiple strikes. But you don’t care. You don’t have the emotional discipline to stop yourself from calling people names like “the chorus”. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7329 "2012-11-11T19:28:30Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > yes, that’s how I rate a poor fighter, someone who decks another and gets the better of him. Martin sucked at it. I’m not sure of your point here. Is there some form of sarcasm involved and you are saying TM was obviously a better fighter than Z? In a street fight, combatants very rarely go to the ground voluntarily. They usually land there during a struggle for standing dominance, via a slip or lack of any real takedown defence training. If one person puts another on the deck with their first punch, or stuns another so badly they can’t defend themselves properly, they even more rarely wait for them to fall over then jump straight into a mounted position. The ones that would tend to be the type that once they get up close and personal to you, they will seriously fuck you up. Maybe TM really did find himself in that position and think he could fuck up the nosey guy badly, but his actions on the ground certainly don’t indicate him capable of it. Not only can he barely cause a cut with a head slam, but the poor kid had pillow-fists and seemed far more likely to cause a broken nose with a headbutt. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7330 "2012-11-11T19:31:50Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Cite he should have more serious injuries? If Zimmerman is on his back then his head is no more than a foot or so off the ground when he tries to get up. The back of his head is covered with\*\* abrasions which is consistent with multiple strikes.\*\* > > But you don’t care. You don’t have the emotional discipline to stop yourself from calling people names like “the chorus”. More bullshit compound phrases? It’s okay **Magiver** –I have gotten used to it: “emotional discipline” “racial rant” and other nuggets of wisdom. LOL. Abrasions consistent with multiple strikes? Care to be more specific? ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7331 "2012-11-11T19:33:04Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > 1. Yeah…such a vicious beating and only broken nose and some scratches to show for it. > In 15 seconds, I could inflict more damage on a person than that. The only ‘attacker’ here was Zimmerman. Again, as I will repeat, Zimmerman bought the tickets to the show. He saw the performance. Problem is like a coward, he pulled out his gun. > > Common story where I live–people with guns who start shit, can’t fight and when the going gets tough, they shoot someone. > > I am tired of this. > > 1. What a bullshit question…I live in a big city…I see ‘suspicious’ strangers almost every other day. No, I haven’t beaten them: because they didn’t follow me and pursue me the way Zimmerman did to Martin. They didn’t menace me and threaten me. > > Being followed by someone for over 10 minutes would definitely freak me out. If they approached me and got to me, MOST DEFINITELY I AM FIGHTING THEM. I have the right to defend myself. And if I had a weapon, I would reach for it. > > It really boggles my mind how some people can rationalize Zimmerman’s behavior. What he did was creepy and scary as fuck and some of you see nothing wrong with that. > > As if Martin had an obligation to kowtow and be subservient to some fucking loon who had been pursuing him in the dark…you have some damned nerve. Martin had no obligation to surrender his power to Zimmerman. NONE. > > Who the hell is Zimmerman? God? What rights did he have over Martin? Who the fuck does he think he is? > > I truly wonder if you have shared your opinions to others, especially females, and see what they have to say. Or is this an internet only thing? > > They would be in a better position to understand, since they are more likely to know what Martin went through–many females I know have at one point been stalked by a guy. > > I have given some of my female relatives mace and have showed them self-defense techniques for a reason–because they might encounter a Zimmerman-like figure one day who sees them as an object. Care to respond? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7332 "2012-11-11T19:36:47Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > If you think a few superficial scratches and a broken nose are a “good number” after someone is supposed to have sucker-punched you to the ground, jumped on you and added a few more punches for spite, then when you tried to get up, slammed your head several times against a pavement edge, then your judgement is worthless. the picture of his head says otherwise. the back of his head is covered with abrasions. Nice insult on your part though. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > No. Do you have evidence they occurred in the manner described? Yes, Zimmerman’s testimony and the witnesses who saw him after the fight and the medical personnel who checked him out. It is all consistent. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7333 "2012-11-11T19:39:20Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > More bullshit compound phrases? It’s okay **Magiver** –I have gotten used to it: “emotional discipline” “racial rant” and other nuggets of wisdom. LOL. > > Abrasions consistent with multiple strikes? Care to be more specific? so the answer is no, you can’t cite anything. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7334 "2012-11-11T19:45:38Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > so the answer is no, you can’t cite anything. Again, we talked about this a couple weeks back when\*\* you with the face\*\* posted pictures of Zimmerman’s “brutal injuries”. How the hell were the sideways scrape wounds consistent with his head being “pounded into the pavement”? If anything, it looks more like some sharp object got scraped into his head. You seem to have a short memory–I don’t. Or maybe since I don’t share your views you feel you can cherry-pick and ignore things you don’t like. Say what you want about me, but I have read and grappled with all your posts, however ridiculous they may seem to me. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7335 "2012-11-11T19:49:04Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > the picture of his head says otherwise. the back of his head is covered with abrasions. Nice insult on your part though. The kind of abrasions you’d get if your head ended up anywhere near a concrete surface and your head was glancing against the concrete, not injuries that would have occurred if a head was being deliberately slammed against it with little resistance, if any. The insult was against your judgement regarding what constitutes a “good number.” Don’t take it to heart. You might have perfectly valid opinions on other topics, for all I know. > [@Magiver](#): > > Yes, Zimmerman’s testimony and the witnesses who saw him after the fight and the medical personnel who checked him out. It is all consistent. Z’s injuries were so severe that, after a quick wipedown, he looked as though he could go another 10 rounds with TM. I’m sure you want to believe he didn’t want to go and be checked out at hospital because he’s a cheapskate, but less trusting people are wondering if it is because he knew he hadn’t been in a life or death struggle and he didn’t want experts confirming it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7336 "2012-11-11T19:51:52Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Again, we talked about this a couple weeks back when\*\* you with the face\*\* posted pictures of Zimmerman’s “brutal injuries”. > > How the hell were the sideways scrape wounds consistent with his head being “pounded into the pavement”? The [back of his head](http://i.usatoday.net/communitymanager/_photos/on-deadline/2012/07/03/Zimmermanx-large.jpg) shows multiple strike locations. The injuries are consistent with his statement of Martin slamming his head into the cement when he tried to get up. were you expecting a JFK type head injury with only a foot of distance to travel? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7337 "2012-11-11T19:55:33Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Correct. None of those things, separately or combined, show he’s a murderer. > > You keep on mentioning all of this like there was something wrong with him following Martin, or carrying a loaded gun. There wasn’t. It’s currently being questioned whether there was anything wrong with him killing Martin, but as yet there’s no actual evidence that there was. > > And yes, if you were forced to kill someone in self defence, I’d say that you shouldn’t be charged with a crime for doing so. > > So, it’s pure coincidence that your spurious reasoning and false conclusions look more like those used in fiction than in real courts? I don’t think so. And this is why I tend to discount your opinions on the subject. You keep deliberately discounting the facts that lead one to believe that Zimmerman might be lying. For example, it’s ridiculous to say that, if someone lies about one thing, it has no bearing on whether they lie about something else. If I were to lie to you right now, you would tend to disbelieve me in the future. The fact that you refuse to even possibly consider the idea that someone lying about one thing makes them less trustworthy about another makes me discount your ability to judge people in general. It’s been repeatedly shown why it’s a bad idea to follow a suspected criminal while you are carrying a gun. That you refuse to admit that it’s a bad idea really also discounts your opinion. You seem to think that the way lawyers do thing is somehow right, and it’s not. Presuming innocent until proven guilty is a legal concept used to make sure you don’t accidentally incarcerate the wrong guy. It’s not something used when forming an opinion about something. If you’re wanting to remain neutral, remain neutral. But the worst thing is your attack by calling something “movie logic.” You do realize that the reason why those things reason that logic is used in movies is that many people find it convincing, right? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7338 "2012-11-11T20:13:15Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > The kind of abrasions you’d get if your head ended up anywhere near a concrete surface and your head was glancing against the concrete, not injuries that would have occurred if a head was being deliberately slammed against it with little resistance, if any. > > The insult was against your judgement regarding what constitutes a “good number.” Don’t take it to heart. You might have perfectly valid opinions on other topics, for all I know. given that a head is basically spherical in nature it takes multiple strikes to cover the surface. This is what is seen in the picture. This is what Zimmerman described. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Z’s injuries were so severe that, after a quick wipedown, he looked as though he could go another 10 rounds with TM. I’m sure you want to believe he didn’t want to go and be checked out at hospital because he’s a cheapskate, but less trusting people are wondering if it is because he knew he hadn’t been in a life or death struggle and he didn’t want experts confirming it. why would you think he needed to go to the hospital. He stopped the beating by shooting Martin. And your 4000 mile distant psychic abilities that allow you to know how he felt are as amazing as always but they fly in the evidence available. Witness 13 said he sounded like someone who just got his butt whooped. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7339 "2012-11-11T20:30:17Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > given that a head is basically spherical in nature it takes multiple strikes to cover the surface. This is what is seen in the picture. This is what Zimmerman described. No. Given that a head is basically spherical in nature, and prone to being marked by hard objects quite easily, it means that the head need never leave the floor and could just roll against a piece of gravel and sustain a bleeding injury. Any other marks could easily be the result of friction. > [@Magiver](#): > > why would you think he needed to go to the hospital. He stopped the beating by shooting Martin. And your 4000 mile distant psychic abilities that allow you to know how he felt are as amazing as always but they fly in the evidence available. Witness 13 said he sounded like someone who just got his butt whooped. He’s supposed to have been pummelled almost into unconsciousness. How much it cost to establish that he wasn’t suffering hidden injuries shouldn’t have even been an issue, especially so when you’ve got the death of a teenager to justify. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7340 "2012-11-11T20:40:17Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > No. Given that a head is basically spherical in nature, and prone to being marked by hard objects quite easily, it means that the head need never leave the floor and could just roll against a piece of gravel and sustain a bleeding injury. Any other marks could easily be the result of friction. It’s far more likely that a person on the ground will struggle to get up and highly unlikely that an attacking person would grind someone’s head into the cement. But yes, anything is possible. the court has to prove his head wasn’t slammed into the cement. His head shows injuries consistent with Zimmerman’s account. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > He’s supposed to have been pummelled almost into unconsciousness. How much it cost to establish that he wasn’t suffering hidden injuries shouldn’t have even been an issue, especially so when you’ve got the death of a teenager to justify. Yes, and the court has to prove he wasn’t. As it stands, it cannot. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7341 "2012-11-11T20:55:32Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It’s far more likely that a person on the ground will struggle to get up and highly unlikely that an attacking person would grind someone’s head into the cement. But yes, anything is possible. the court has to prove his head wasn’t slammed into the cement. His head shows injuries consistent with Zimmerman’s account. No reasonable person would come to that conclusion. I’ll bet every member of the jury has had worse injuries from far less sinister circumstances. If there’s one person on the jury who has actually been in a fight and knows anything about the dynamics of delivering a sucker-punch and the physics of what happens when a person is hit in a particular direction, that person isn’t going to believe a word of it. > [@Magiver](#): > > Yes, and the court has to prove he wasn’t. As it stands, it cannot. Meanwhile, here we are still shooting the breeze and you haven’t changed your conviction on what a badass TM was one iota since page 1. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7342 "2012-11-11T21:25:19Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > And this is why I tend to discount your opinions on the subject. You keep deliberately discounting the facts that lead one to believe that Zimmerman might be lying. For example, it’s ridiculous to say that, if someone lies about one thing, it has no bearing on whether they lie about something else. If I were to lie to you right now, you would tend to disbelieve me in the future. The fact that you refuse to even possibly consider the idea that someone lying about one thing makes them less trustworthy about another makes me discount your ability to judge people in general. I accept that showing he lied about one thing may make you (or me, or anyone) less likely to believe him in future. What I don’t accept is that, just because you think he’s untrustworthy, you can conclude that he’s lying about something _which is supported by the physical and witness evidence_, and hence conclude he is a murderer. > [@](#): > > It’s been repeatedly shown why it’s a bad idea to follow a suspected criminal while you are carrying a gun. That you refuse to admit that it’s a bad idea really also discounts your opinion. I’ve repeatedly said I think Zimmerman’s actions were stupid and dangerous, and that being attacked by the suspected criminal he was following is good evidence of that. However, following a suspected criminal when you have a gun, if carrying that gun is legal, is far less stupid than doing so _without_ one. Also, being stupid does not equal being guilty of murder. **Bricker** has said upthread that it may make him guilty of manslaughter. I don’t share that opinion, but I’ve not looked at Florida’s manslaughter laws in any detail, and I also don’t know whether the SYG immunity would extend to that. I will repeat again that, in my opinion, none of Zimmerman’s acts appear to have been illegal, based on the evidence. He carried a gun, legally. He followed Martin, legally. He approached and spoke to Martin, legally. He shot Martin in self defence, legally. Even if you contend that the totality of these actions amount to unlawful recklessness, that cannot make him a murdered. > [@](#): > > You seem to think that the way lawyers do thing is somehow right, and it’s not. Presuming innocent until proven guilty is a legal concept used to make sure you don’t accidentally incarcerate the wrong guy. It’s not something used when forming an opinion about something. If you’re wanting to remain neutral, remain neutral. It is what I use to form an opinion about something as serious as calling someone a murderer, or calling them guilty of any other serious crime. I’m not, however, claiming to be neutral. I’m claiming that I am, and that it is correct to be, on the side of the defendant until such point as they are proven guilty. The reason for this is I prefer to live in a society governed by laws, and that those laws bind not just me and other individuals, but also bind the government’s power, and that of the legal system. I consider that calling for the arrest and trial of someone when there is insufficient evidence to make it likely there will be a conviction to be antithetical to that, and to be immoral, frankly. > [@](#): > > But the worst thing is your attack by calling something “movie logic.” You do realize that the reason why those things reason that logic is used in movies is that many people find it convincing, right? That many people believe something doesn’t make it right. Frankly, the reason these things are used in movies is because they are dramatically successful, not because they are realistic or logical, and the reason people believe them is because they’ve seen them so often. People _want_ to believe them in this case because they want a simple answer, with an obvious good guy and bad guy. Sadly, it doesn’t appear we have that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=366) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=368)