# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 371
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7403 "2012-11-12T20:19:45Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > A) I’m not surprised you have served time. > B) If you think that scenario will always be the norm, make sure your life and health insurances are up to date. There was a case over here where a guy went out to confront a group of young men who were taking the piss outside his home and he ended up getting kicked to death. I’ve vowed to myself I wont be a statistic like him, even if it means making somebody else a statistic. I’m not dumb or crazy enough to take on a gang, unless it was a life or death situation and there was no escape, but if I see any of them alone, they are going to agree to back the fuck off or be in a fight they’ll remember. I’m not going to walk the streets in fear of anyone. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7404 "2012-11-12T20:21:12Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You’re seriously asking why people fib on the internet? No, I’m asking why you think I should be bothered to tell lies to people I don’t know, for no real benefit. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7405 "2012-11-12T20:24:51Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > [QUOTE=dimmy derko] > > **Anyone who is game enough to march up to a much larger guy and lay hands on them shouldn’t be intimidated or alarmed by someone so obviously not the furtive criminal type, as TM.** Why you want to believe that he’d suddenly become so bumbling and helpless when a threat actually arose, despite him being prepared to put his rep on the line as a doorman, even just once, only you know. BINGO. It is mind-boggling that they refuse to see this. [/QUOTE] Obviously you have never been a fit and confident 17 year old boy. Old guys like Zimmerman just seem like fat slobs. Chances are Martin could have been naive enough to do it. But I would be surprised if he did it completely unprovoked. How do you think the last moments before the shooting played out? ---
**Author:** ![Saraya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Saraya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saraya)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7406 "2012-11-12T20:29:35Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > There was a case over here where a guy went out to confront a group of young men who were taking the piss outside his home and he ended up getting kicked to death. > > I’ve vowed to myself I wont be a statistic like him, even if it means making somebody else a statistic. I’m not dumb or crazy enough to take on a gang, unless it was a life or death situation and there was no escape, but if I see any of them alone, they are going to agree to back the fuck off or be in a fight they’ll remember. I’m not going to walk the streets in fear of anyone. Fu\*\* exercise and fu\*\* fist fighting; just get yourself a gun. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7407 "2012-11-12T20:33:05Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > There was a case over here… > > … if I see any of them alone, they are going to agree to back the fuck off or be in a fight they’ll remember. I’m not going to walk the streets in fear of anyone. Ah yes. I had forgotten you are across the pond. Makes more sense now. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7408 "2012-11-12T20:37:20Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You’re seriously asking why people fib on the internet? He may not be fibbing. If he was a Yank I would guess he more than likely was posturing, or incredibly lucky that he hasn’t been shot or stabbed yet. I have to guess that when there is a minuscule chance that anyone other than the most harden criminal is packing, you can take more liberties with your response to a confrontation. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7409 "2012-11-12T20:39:52Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > No, I’m asking why you think I should be bothered to tell lies to people I don’t know, for no real benefit. There is a benefit though. You are using your stories as evidence of your “expert knowledge” with regard to street fights/confrontations. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7410 "2012-11-12T20:44:33Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > I agree. The evidence we have and Z’s account just don’t add up. Anything is possible and the old axiom “stranger things have happened” is often true, but I suspect there was something else going on. > I suspect pretty much the same, though I doubt Z was on top when he fired. If he had been, the hoody would have been back against Martin’s body and we should have seen evidence of a contact shot on both the hoody and the body. Evidence suggests the the hoody was some distance from the body when the shot was fired. Either hanging down as Martin was bent over Z as he says, or pulled away as Z clutched at it to keep Martin from fleeing (as I suspect). It’s possible but I keep thinking about why Z was so keen to admit jumping on TM’s back, when the natural response should have been to back up and regain control of distance if you aren’t even sure you’ve hit your target, and I think it’s because he knew he could have had at least 2 people watching through their blinds and so he had to include it in his statement as he wasn’t sure what they might report and he needed to counter any claims that might say they saw him above TM before the shot. > [@Hbns](#): > > Perhaps. Hard to say. Evidence kind of goes both ways as to how people react. > > I would add that if Z were on top in a controlling position I would be a little surprised that he would pull his gun at that time. Presuming he had some training in how to neutralize an aggressive individual. Totally my take, but I think given what we know about Z the draw was much more likely a last ditch effort to exert authority over a Martin that was just about to break free and escape. The single shot could easily have been an accidental\* discharge. > > \*proper terminology for firing before you intended. I am not suggesting this reduces his culpability in any way. I think he had it out as he was falling to the ground with TM and that’s why TM’s cries got more desperate. There was a bit of a struggle on the floor with TM panicking to get up away from Z. He’s pulled his way further onto the grass, Z has got to his feet, TM has fell back with Z above him and with Z grasping his hoody in his left hand as he hovered over TM, he’s shot him out of blind panic. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7411 "2012-11-12T20:54:18Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > It’s possible but I keep thinking about why Z was so keen to admit jumping on TM’s back, when the natural response should have been to back up and regain control of distance if you aren’t even sure you’ve hit your target, and I think it’s because he knew he could have had at least 2 people watching through their blinds and so he had to include it in his statement as he wasn’t sure what they might report and he needed to counter any claims that might say they saw him above TM before the shot. I think he was keen to admit it, because he thinks it is heroic. He jumped on the bad guy that was getting away. Seems too calculating for Z, you give him too much credit I think. If he is that observant and quick thinking on his feet, I would expect a better description of the events up to and including the punch in the face. > [@](#): > > He’s pulled his way further onto the grass, Z has got to his feet, TM has fell back with Z above him and with Z grasping his hoody in his left hand as he hovered over TM, he’s shot him out of blind panic. IDK. Seems like a position of control. I’d suspect no shot (in control) or multiple shots (angered or panicked). Though it could have been an accidental discharge here, but that is less likely if the gun was out for a bit. For me, simpler is better. I think Z shot him intentionally or unintentionally fearing he was going to get away (again). When Martin still pulled away and tried to run off, Z jumped on him (probably having no idea initially if he hit him). ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7412 "2012-11-12T20:55:09Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > No, I’m asking why you think I should be bothered to tell lies to people I don’t know, for no real benefit. Because of rich fantasy life. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7413 "2012-11-12T20:57:53Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > There is a benefit though. You are using your stories as evidence of your “expert knowledge” with regard to street fights/confrontations. I suppose so, but if I don’t come across as believable it’s defeated any such purpose. If anything I say sounds too fantastical, it can be thrown back in my face over and over. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7414 "2012-11-12T21:02:08Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > I suppose so, but if I don’t come across as believable it’s defeated any such purpose. You don’t. Typical internet keyboard warrior. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7415 "2012-11-12T21:09:21Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > DeeDee’s statement doesn’t make any sense. It’s roughly half a mile to the 7-11, so you’d have to believe Martin spent roughly half an hour inside the “mail thing” before Zimmerman got there. Does anyone really believe that? If you’re only seconds from home, why would you stop at a “mail thing?” You’re not going to get much wetter. Then Martin loses Zimmerman for several minutes, while apparently walking to Brandi Green;s place. He could have returned home four times in that amount of time. If by losing Zimmerman he meant rounding the corner of the T, likely one of the few ways it could have happened, it’s amazing he could only go thirty feet in a few minutes. Have you entertained the possibility that Martin was sheltering himself from the rain at one point? I have done this, and one time i had to shelter myself for over 15 minutes… Maybe that time, I should have thought someone was watching me. Sounds like something out of a horror movie. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7416 "2012-11-12T21:13:36Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > I think he was keen to admit it, because he thinks it is heroic. He jumped on the bad guy that was getting away. > Seems too calculating for Z, you give him too much credit I think. If he is that observant and quick thinking on his feet, I would expect a better description of the events up to and including the punch in the face. I think he’s vague about the outset of the fight and how it ended up where it did, because all he wants people to consider is it started up along the top bar of the T. Remember in his first interview with Singleton how he said TM jumped out of the bushes? He knew that wasn’t going to fly, so he had to elaborate on why he was up along there and not somewhere else. > [@Hbns](#): > > IDK. Seems like a position of control. I’d suspect no shot (in control) or multiple shots (angered or panicked). Though it could have been an accidental discharge here, but that is less likely if the gun was out for a bit. > > For me, simpler is better. I think Z shot him intentionally or unintentionally fearing he was going to get away (again). When Martin still pulled away and tried to run off, Z jumped on him (probably having no idea initially if he hit him). It’s possible. Whatever happened, I’ve no good reason to believe that after the 2 had been seen on the ground together by the witness who opened his porch to tell them he was calling the police, they remained in exactly the same place and with Martin in a supposedly dominant position, until he got up to the bedroom, heard the shot and looked out to see TM sprawled on the ground, with Z stood to the side holding his head. The wife of W13 says she looked out of the window, heard the shot and noticed someone "hunched over. " Hunched over where, and was TM beneath him? ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7417 "2012-11-12T21:17:22Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You don’t. Typical internet keyboard warrior. Yes, I’ve been spouting my bullshit everywhere. There’s nothing more thrilling than pretending I can hold my own to people I’ll never meet or get to know well enough to care about their opinions. Fancy an armwrestle? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7418 "2012-11-12T21:19:08Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Yes, I’ve been spouting my bullshit everywhere. There’s nothing more thrilling than pretending I can hold my own to people I’ll never meet or get to know well enough to care about their opinions. Yep. You’re not the first keyboard warrior. Not the last one either. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7419 "2012-11-12T21:30:26Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yep. You’re not the first keyboard warrior. Not the last one either. Tell me that my spiel’s at least a little better than the _“I was an SAS-hardened battle veteran when you were still in nappies, and since retiring I have trained under Master Shipoo for 15 years, learning deadly pressure points and blows known only to 15 humans that have ever lived, and I will rip out your carotid and pipe it up your nose if you cross me.”_ bluster that I’ve seen on youtube, or I’m going to retire. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7420 "2012-11-12T21:37:44Z")
[QUOTE=Saraya] Actually yes. As silly as it seems, and unlikely to always work in the real world, that is the appropriate thing to do. The goods news is, with the circulation of communication and ease of use, his (already in his possession) cell phone was the only thing he should have been doing with his hands. Hang up on your girlfriend, call the police and go home(or vice versa). [/QUOTE] Should have, should have, should have. Zimmerman should have broken off his pursuit. Zimmerman should have identified himself. The “should have” onus should be placed on Zimmerman. [QUOTE=Saraya] What ‘situation’ was it? A situation you created by confronting someone with malicious intent? I’d assume violence \> diplomacy in that case then. [/QUOTE] No, the situation Zimmerman created by stalking Martin. You can’t be diplomatic with a stalker and someone who had his mind made up as soon as he left his truck with a loaded gun. [QUOTE=Saraya] Martin resisting suggests that Zimmerman had the upper hand - do we have evidence of this? Yes it is about control, controlling your fate and based on what we know, that’s what it seems Zimmerman did. [/QUOTE] Zimmerman had the upper hand upon leaving his car. He had the upper hand since he first laid eyes on Martin. Control indeed…Zimmerman certainly got what he wanted: he made sure this one didn’t get away. [QUOTE=Saraya] You shoot yourself in the foot here with this. You’re right, certain people command authority or presence. They intimidate without having to do anything. This however, doesn’t apply when you’re in a physical battle in which clearly, the intimidation wasn’t strong enough to avoid a physical confrontation. [/QUOTE] You missed the point: why would Zimmerman even make a comment like that? He connected FIREARM USE TO COMMAND PRESENCE. THAT’S THE POINT. So you admit that Zimmerman;s intimidation factor wasn’t enough? So, i guess then it was okay for Zimmerman to go to plan B, which was shooting Martin? [QUOTE=Saraya] If Martin didn’t respect Zimmerman’s ‘imagined’ authority, that doesn’t really matter as Martin was the one whom created a physical confrontation. Evidence, evidence, evidence. [/QUOTE] No. Zimmerman created the confrontation. Of course Martin didn’t respect him: why the hell should he have? Who the hell was he? Who did he think he was? Again, Zimmerman wanted to make sure those goons (Martin) didn’t get away. He didn’t care to identify who he was…that’s wasn’t the point. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7421 "2012-11-12T21:38:42Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yep. You’re not the first keyboard warrior. Not the last one either. Why don’t you tell everyone what has pinged your bullshit-ometer if my being a keyboard warrior is important enough to mention. Come on, prove your mettle and give some reasoning for your casual accusation that I’m a liar. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7422 "2012-11-12T21:44:12Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > Obviously you have never been a fit and confident 17 year old boy. Old guys like Zimmerman just seem like fat slobs. Chances are Martin could have been naive enough to do it. But I would be surprised if he did it completely unprovoked. > > How do you think the last moments before the shooting played out? Actually more in line with how you think it did. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=370) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=372)