# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 372
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7423 "2012-11-12T21:50:39Z")
> [@Saraya](#): > > I’m fine with racial profiling, or any profiling of any nature. The key is in the person doing the profiling. A wise an experienced (officer for example), will know the difference between when it’s right to just recon/surveillance, or to actually take action. Going around man-handling everyone because you simply can, is not being a good police man. > > It’s a big responsibility to bestow upon authority figures and it takes a lot of trust from the community to give this them power, but that is what we do. We have provided them a level of authority and entrust in them to act on it responsibly. > > If you’re worried that too often they do not, then maybe they as an individual or their training was not efficient enough. > Ironically, speaking of political correctness - we should stop hiring people based on skin color so we can meet some status quo. > > **Zimmerman may not be a police officer, however general attitude and understanding of community awareness/protocol is rooted in the same foundation.** > > In most cases, the Martin Zimmerman situation would have amounted to nothing more than a fist fight. Worse part about it? Some kid got a scare, even though he was innocent. > Best part about it? Nothing irrevocable happened, no casualties and it may have prevented a furthering crime. > > It’s just unfortunate that this incident resulted in a death. Can you elaborate on the bold? I am sorry, but what the f$%^ are you talking about? what “community awareness/protocol”? You’re right, Zimmerman is NOT A POLICEMAN. Another question–somewhat unrelated: Are you from the US? ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7424 "2012-11-12T21:58:02Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > Obviously you have never been a fit and confident 17 year old boy. Old guys like Zimmerman just seem like fat slobs. Even at that age, they are well aware that people only 10 years older than them are the generation whose footsteps they are following in. There’s no way TM would have described Z as an old man. It’s people in their 40’s and over who they are looking on as being over the hill, unless their name is George Foreman or Randy Couture. > [@Hbns](#): > > Chances are Martin could have been naive enough to do it. But I would be surprised if he did it completely unprovoked. Me too. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7425 "2012-11-12T22:01:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Can we examine your claim in #2 a bit? > > As I understand it: > > The only part that is slightly unclear is “…and got to me…” I conclude it doesn’t mean that they approached you, since the full phrase is, “…if they approached me and got to me…” > > Can I ask you what, specifically, you mean by “got to me?” it does me they approached me. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7426 "2012-11-12T22:02:47Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > There’s no way TM would have described Z as an old man. Dee Dee described Zimmerman’s voice as an old man’s. So it appears that a teenager within a few years of Martin’s age could describe Zimmerman as an old man. You never get tired of being wrong, do you? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7427 "2012-11-12T22:06:19Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Dee Dee described Zimmerman’s voice as an old man’s. So it appears that a teenager within a few years of Martin’s age could describe Zimmerman as an old man. > > You never get tired of being wrong, do you? > > Regards, > Shodan So, the girl who Zimmerman defenders are saying can barely get an intelligible sentence out of her mouth and has no idea what TM is seeing, has now become an authority on what old men sound like? All she likely meant is that it was someone with a deeper voice than Trayvon’s. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7428 "2012-11-12T22:17:02Z")
You claimed it couldn’t happen; I cited someone of roughly the same age who also (allegedly) heard Zimmerman’s voice who did exactly that. Make something else up - maybe it can be shot down just as easily. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7429 "2012-11-12T22:25:40Z")
As I’d never made a claim for DD never saying it, I’m not sure what point you think you are making. I said TM wouldn’t have described Z as an old man(imo, him having more information to work on than DD); it was you that brought DD into it. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7430 "2012-11-12T22:53:26Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Even at that age, they are well aware that people only 10 years older than them are the generation whose footsteps they are following in. There’s no way TM would have described Z as an old man. It’s people in their 40’s and over who they are looking on as being over the hill, unless their name is George Foreman or Randy Couture. Over there you must have more respect for your elders. Where I grew up, anyone over 25 was and old fuck and got zero respect if they talked shit. The boys I knew who liked to throw down, certainly didn’t consider being older an advantage. But hey take it for what it is worth, that is experience from the Northern border in the middle of nowhere USA. Almost as far from Florida as you are. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2012, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7431 "2012-11-12T23:38:30Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Why don’t you tell everyone what has pinged your bullshit-ometer if my being a keyboard warrior is important enough to mention. Come on, prove your mettle and give some reasoning for your casual accusation that I’m a liar. Incessant bluster. In my experience people who know how to kick ass never brag about it. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7432 "2012-11-13T00:01:55Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Should have, should have, should have. Zimmerman should have broken off his pursuit. Zimmerman should have identified himself. The “should have” onus should be placed on Zimmerman. Entirely false, from both a legal and moral point of view. > [@](#): > > No, the situation Zimmerman created by stalking Martin. You can’t be diplomatic with a stalker and someone who had his mind made up as soon as he left his truck with a loaded gun. Zimmerman didn’t stalk Martin, this was the first time they’d ever come across each other. You keep referring to the gun as though him carrying it is an issue. it isn’t. > [@](#): > > Zimmerman had the upper hand upon leaving his car. He had the upper hand since he first laid eyes on Martin. > > Control indeed…Zimmerman certainly got what he wanted: he made sure this one didn’t get away. No, he didn’t. He lost Martin, and Martin chose to come back and confront him. During that confrontation, he was severely injured by Martin. He didn’t have the upper hand at any point until he shot Martin - that’s why he had to do it. > [@](#): > > You missed the point: why would Zimmerman even make a comment like that? He connected FIREARM USE TO COMMAND PRESENCE. THAT’S THE POINT. > > So you admit that Zimmerman;s intimidation factor wasn’t enough? So, i guess then it was okay for Zimmerman to go to plan B, which was shooting Martin? None of that has even the remotest resemblance to anything that happened. But yes, if Zimmerman is being attacked, and can’t drive off Martin by sheer intimidation factor, it’s acceptable to shoot him. > [@](#): > > No. Zimmerman created the confrontation. Of course Martin didn’t respect him: why the hell should he have? Who the hell was he? Who did he think he was? He was the guy who followed Martin and asked him a question. Two things he’s perfectly entitled to do without getting punched. There was, as far as the evidence showed, no confrontation until Martin created one. I strongly suspect you don’t actually know what “confrontation” means. > [@](#): > > Again, Zimmerman wanted to make sure those goons (Martin) didn’t get away. He didn’t care to identify who he was…that’s wasn’t the point. There’s no reason he should have identified himself. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7433 "2012-11-13T00:10:46Z")
Some general thoughts, as this thread has moved quickly whilst I’ve been at work. It’s incredibly revealing to see the Martin apologists revealing that they would happily attack someone for following them, seemingly not realising that following someone, with a loaded gun or otherwise, and talking to them is perfectly legal in Florida. **Dimmy** ’s fantasies are straight from a Guy Ritchie film, and frankly make me embarrassed that he’s a countryman of mine. I’ve figured out his real objection to this whole thing, and it’s that he thinks it’s _unfair_ that Zimmerman was allowed to use a gun to escape from what he considers was a fair fight. I’ve known about two people who can fight the way **dimmy** claims he can, and they don’t talk about it the way he does. The people who I’ve know who do talk like he does are pathetic little gobshites who’s only actual fighting is done with their mouths, and who’s larger, tougher mates have to get them out of the shit they start. As for **betenoire** , I think in 20 or so posts he’s managed about half a coherent sentence. I’m just glad **Hbns** is here to talk some sense on the other side. The one sad thing about this discussion is that there’s always the possibility that I’ve missed something and come to the wrong conclusions, but the people arguing (for want of a better word) against me are so incapable that they could never show me that. Apart from that, it’s been great fun to read them getting slapped down by facts and logic again and again. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7434 "2012-11-13T01:28:37Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > I’m not suggesting it was a deliberate tactic or even that there was any grinding. Take a piece of concrete and try just rubbing your head against it lightly. Then, glue a tiny stone to the concrete and lightly graze your head against it. Please post results. I have a much better idea. Why don’t you let my nephew who is about the same weight and height as Martin get on top of you and push your head into the cement. He’s a computer geek with no sports background so it will give you a pit of an advantage. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > No, that is called jumping to conclusions. The conclusion is already drawn by Zimmerman. The state has to contradict it with evidence. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > I don’t mean badass in a Mike Tyson kind of way, I mean in a “kid on the wrong side of the tracks” way. Well lets look at what we know about Martin. He was on his 3rd suspension from school for: drugs, theft, and vandalism. Sounds like his train wasn’t on the right track to me. He might have been quite active in the street fighting scene. Doesn’t matter to me but there you go. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > There seems to be little doubt in your mind that TM wasn’t an easy-going, likeable 17yr old, who’d no more attack an adult stranger for no good reason than you or I, and I’m puzzled as to why you are so convinced that Z’s described attack by him was completely within his nature. Zimmerman is an adult. He was expecting the police to arrive shortly so it’s unlikely he invited them to watch him commit a crime. Martin was a 17 year old troubled kid. Age 17 is a time of irrational behavior with the best of kids so there is no reason to believe Martin was less irrational than a straight A student who isn’t on suspension for various acts of stupid. Now add in the insult of being challenged in his own neighborhood and you have motive. On top of that, it appears likely he went out of his way to confront Zimmerman. He literally went looking for trouble. Now we can’t prove he swung first but the evidence shows he wailed on Zimmerman which shows an aggressive intensity to his actions. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7435 "2012-11-13T02:06:04Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > No. Zimmerman created the confrontation. Of course Martin didn’t respect him: why the hell should he have? Who the hell was he? Who did he think he was? > > Again, Zimmerman wanted to make sure those goons (Martin) didn’t get away. He didn’t care to identify who he was…that’s wasn’t the point. The evidence shows the fight started where Zimmerman said it started. Dee Dee said Martin told her he was near his house. According to Zimmerman this is the direction Martin came from. The confrontation was created by Martin. He came to Zimmerman. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7436 "2012-11-13T02:26:32Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Some general thoughts, as this thread has moved quickly whilst I’ve been at work. It’s incredibly revealing to see the Martin apologists revealing that they would happily attack someone for following them, seemingly not realising that following someone, with a loaded gun or otherwise, and talking to them is perfectly legal in Florida. > > **Dimmy** ’s fantasies are straight from a Guy Ritchie film, and frankly make me embarrassed that he’s a countryman of mine. I’ve figured out his real objection to this whole thing, and it’s that he thinks it’s _unfair_ that Zimmerman was allowed to use a gun to escape from what he considers was a fair fight. > > I’ve known about two people who can fight the way **dimmy** claims he can, and they don’t talk about it the way he does. The people who I’ve know who do talk like he does are pathetic little gobshites who’s only actual fighting is done with their mouths, and who’s larger, tougher mates have to get them out of the shit they start. > > As for **betenoire** , I think in 20 or so posts he’s managed about half a coherent sentence. I’m just glad **Hbns** is here to talk some sense on the other side. The one sad thing about this discussion is that there’s always the possibility that I’ve missed something and come to the wrong conclusions, but the people arguing (for want of a better word) against me are so incapable that they could never show me that. > > Apart from that, it’s been great fun to read them getting slapped down by facts and logic again and again. Nice fantasy. Very nice and entertaining. Only 20 posts? Gee, thought you were going to say 100. But it has been coherent enough for you to understand and reply then, no? Facts and logic…please. As if you haven’t been called out for your bullshit…as you were recently by someone who I haven’t actually see post here. Again, the things I bring up will be talked about by a jury…that’s how shit works here. I have been on juries, trust me, that’s what happens. You can say my points are irrelevant or whatever nonsense you want, but it’s YOU who don’t understand how the courts work here. You keep talking about how the evidence backs up Zimmerman–but you have an extremely narrow view of the evidence. I haven’t heard any discussion from you about Zimmerman’s interviews. Whether you like it or not, they are evidence. He gave one on Hannity. He gave a couple for the police. That’s evidence. He says some pretty damning things. I have brought this up several times over the weeks, but you haven’t responded. You keep on talking about how Zimmerman’s credibility shouldn’t really be an issue. The same poster who I alluded to called you out on that. It was very refreshing to see an outside poster chime in. It doesn’t work that way here. If you are a proven liar, trust me, juries will take note, and you know what, that might affect their verdict. You might not like hearing that, but yes, that’s the way it works here. I know this for a fact. You feel there’s not enough evidence for a conviction. And how exactly do your really know this? How do you know that he won’t be charged with manslaughter? Hate to break this to you, but the courts aren’t this linear black and white entity. A jury can still send his behind away for a very long time. Also, sure someone might be charged with something, but that doesn’t mean they won’t get a lesser charge. Sometimes those lesser charges are worked in. Often times, pleas are made–it’s about negotiation. Even\*\* Bricker \*\*tried pointing this out. He would certainly know. This is a humble opinions and speculations thread. You can take your superior analysis and shove it and go to a legal analysis thread for lawyers. Oh, I forgot, you’re not. Spare me. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7437 "2012-11-13T02:34:34Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > 1. The evidence shows the fight started where Zimmerman said it started. > > 2. Dee Dee said Martin told her he was near his house. According to Zimmerman this is the direction Martin came from. > > 3. The confrontation was created by Martin. He came to Zimmerman. 1. The evidence shows a lot things that you refuse to see. And? 2. Define “near”…I am “near” my house when I am a 10 minute walking distance away. 3. No and no–Zimmerman created the confrontation. Zimmerman came to Martin. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7438 "2012-11-13T02:35:57Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > 1. Yeah…such a vicious beating and only broken nose and some scratches to show for it. > In 15 seconds, I could inflict more damage on a person than that. The only ‘attacker’ here was Zimmerman. Again, as I will repeat, Zimmerman bought the tickets to the show. He saw the performance. Problem is like a coward, he pulled out his gun. > > Common story where I live–people with guns who start shit, can’t fight and when the going gets tough, they shoot someone. > > I am tired of this. > > 1. What a bullshit question…I live in a big city…I see ‘suspicious’ strangers almost every other day. No, I haven’t beaten them: because they didn’t follow me and pursue me the way Zimmerman did to Martin. They didn’t menace me and threaten me. > > Being followed by someone for over 10 minutes would definitely freak me out. If they approached me and got to me, MOST DEFINITELY I AM FIGHTING THEM. I have the right to defend myself. And if I had a weapon, I would reach for it. > > It really boggles my mind how some people can rationalize Zimmerman’s behavior. What he did was creepy and scary as fuck and some of you see nothing wrong with that. > > As if Martin had an obligation to kowtow and be subservient to some fucking loon who had been pursuing him in the dark…you have some damned nerve. Martin had no obligation to surrender his power to Zimmerman. NONE. > > Who the hell is Zimmerman? God? What rights did he have over Martin? Who the fuck does he think he is? > > I truly wonder if you have shared your opinions to others, especially females, and see what they have to say. Or is this an internet only thing? > > They would be in a better position to understand, since they are more likely to know what Martin went through–many females I know have at one point been stalked by a guy. > > I have given some of my female relatives mace and have showed them self-defense techniques for a reason–because they might encounter a Zimmerman-like figure one day who sees them as an object. Let’s try again **magiver** … ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7439 "2012-11-13T02:46:09Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > 1. The evidence shows a lot things that you refuse to see. And? none of it directly conflicts with his account. > [@betenoire39](#): > > 1. Define “near”…I am “near” my house when I am a 10 minute walking distance away. Near, as in “I’m so close to my house I don’t have to run to it” which is the context in which the statement was made. It means he can’t see Zimmerman. It means he’s not at the intersecting T. > [@betenoire39](#): > > 1. No and no–Zimmerman created the confrontation. Zimmerman came to Martin. Not according to the evidence which I just went over. Martin came to Zimmerman. Martin started the conversation according to both accounts. Martin assaulted Zimmerman according to the evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7440 "2012-11-13T02:47:11Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Let’s try again **magiver** … Lets try what again? Why are you posting this? ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7441 "2012-11-13T03:24:48Z")
I responded to your posts in kind. I expected you to reciprocate. I asked you a number of questions… ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2012, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7442 "2012-11-13T03:27:46Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > I responded to your posts in kind. > > I expected you to reciprocate. > > I asked you a number of questions… you posted what looks like a series of your own quotes. That is not a question. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=371) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=373)