# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 377
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7523 "2012-11-15T01:36:30Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > 1. Correct, based on the current evidence he did nothing wrong or illegal. > > 2. Incorrect. Martin was free to do whatever the hell he wanted except to assault someone. The evidence shows he was attacked. > > 3. Cite that anyone suggested Zimmerman asked gently like Snow white. > > 4. It’s mind boggling that you can ignore the reality that Martin assaulted Zimmerman and had to go out of his way to do it. There is absolutely no reason for Martin to travel back in the direction he came from except to deliberately confront Zimmerman. 1. Based on the current evidence, Zimmerman did everything wrong and what he did was not legal. 2. Martin had every right to defend himself. The evidence shows Martin was defending himself against a psycho who criminalized him and didn’t want him, the asshole, to get away. 3. LOL. 4. Martin did not assault Zimmerman. He was defending himself against a gun-toting psycho. There was absolutely no reason for Zimmerman to take the steps he did that night. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7524 "2012-11-15T01:41:17Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Ok then. Let me play along. > > Let’s disregard what I disbelieve. > > His story about how he came into contact with Martin. > His story about the mechanics of the struggle and how it unfolded. > His story about what he did after he hung up from the non-emergency call. > His story about what Martin supposedly said to him. > What’s left? > > Zimmerman going to prison. Unlikely, as your disregarding that doesn’t prove anything. > [@betenoire39](#): > > And I just want to say something… > > So we have two lawyers on this thread who believe that the prosecution has the material for either a manslaughter or second-degree murder charge. > > What do you make of this? The lawyer claiming there’s enough for a murder 2 charge is ignoring the self defence claim entirely, and focussing on the criminal intent, which will not be relevant if self defence is upheld. This is in addition to being completely wrong about the criminal intent. Anyone can register and claim to be a lawyer, but posting a misspelled screed containing many things that have already been discredited in this thread doesn’t add anything to the debate. **Bricker** ’s suggestion that there’s enough for a manslaughter charge is more interesting, if it turns out that SYG doesn’t preclude it. I’m not convinced that Zimmerman’s actions prior to the fight could be seen by a reasonable person as so likely to lead to the death of another as to be criminally reckless, but at least any discussion about that is about Zimmerman’s actual actions, rather than the baseless speculation necessary to suggest murder. You weren’t about when we began discussing this case, but my original opinion was that he was likely to be guilty of manslaughter. In many jurisdictions, he might well have been, with the same evidence. However, Florida’s laws don’t make him so - not least because of the strong requirement for the state to prove he was not defending himself. A requirement I fully agree with, and would like to see everywhere, but that’s another debate. My opinion remains that, unless the state can prove he did not act in self defence, he cannot be convicted of any crime related to killing Martin. I’ve asked **Bricker** some questions to do with a potential manslaughter charge that he’s not answered yet, so that opinion could change. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7525 "2012-11-15T01:43:29Z")
Just another question I will throw out there: Can anyone account for Zimmerman’s actions after he hung up from the non-emergency call? Why are they so sure that he IMMEDIATELY went back to his truck? How do they know where he initially parked his truck? How do they know it wasn’t moved? Food for thought (like they care LOL). ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7526 "2012-11-15T01:46:30Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > 1. Based on the current evidence, Zimmerman did everything wrong and what he did was not legal. False. > [@](#): > > 1. Martin had every right to defend himself. The evidence shows Martin was defending himself against a psycho who criminalized him and didn’t want him, the asshole, to get away. There is no evidence whatsoever that Zimmerman did anything for Martin to defend himself against. Literally none. > [@](#): > > 1. Martin did not assault Zimmerman. He was defending himself against a gun-toting psycho. Again, the “gun-toting” thing, as if there’s anything wrong with Zimmerman having a gun. He was perfectly entitled to carry it. Now, we’ll never know if Martin assaulted Zimmerman, as he’s dead, and can’t be tried for it. But we do know he attacked him, and injured him, and we know that, until the point he shot him, Zimmerman did not injure Martin. > [@](#): > > There was absolutely no reason for Zimmerman to take the steps he did that night. So? The point is, was there a reason for him not to? And if so, was that reason that the steps he took were illegal? The answers, by the way, are yes, they were stupid things to do, and no, they were not illegal. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7527 "2012-11-15T01:46:50Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > My opinion remains that, unless the state can prove he did not act in self defence, he cannot be convicted of any crime related to killing Martin. I’ve asked **Bricker** some questions to do with a potential manslaughter charge that he’s not answered yet, so that opinion could change. Oh boy…you’re a hard sell, aren’t you? As I said before (and Bricker confirmed), sometimes a person can be charged with something but get lesser charges. Again, the courts here aren’t this linear black white entity. Deal often are made. Pleas are made. Negotiations happen. That’s the way things work here. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7528 "2012-11-15T01:46:57Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > 1. Based on the current evidence, Zimmerman did everything wrong and what he did was not legal. what evidence? Cite one thing he did wrong before he was assaulted. > [@betenoire39](#): > > 1. Martin had every right to defend himself. The evidence shows Martin was defending himself against a psycho who criminalized him and didn’t want him, the asshole, to get away. Cite the evidence he was defending himself. > [@betenoire39](#): > > 1. LOL. cite or admit you made this up. > [@betenoire39](#): > > 1. Martin did not assault Zimmerman. He was defending himself against a gun-toting psycho. There was absolutely no reason for Zimmerman to take the steps he did that night. Yes there is a reason for Zimmerman to take the steps he took that night. He is part of a neighborhood watch. There is ZERO evidence that Zimmerman laid a finger on Martin. ZERO. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7529 "2012-11-15T01:51:32Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Just another question I will throw out there: > > Can anyone account for Zimmerman’s actions after he hung up from the non-emergency call? I assume Zimmerman can. If it matters, he’ll be asked at the trial. > [@](#): > > Why are they so sure that he IMMEDIATELY went back to his truck? > > How do they know where he initially parked his truck? How do they know it wasn’t moved? I don’t know any of those things, but I’ve no particular reason to care about it. There’s no reason to think he _didn’t_ go back, as far as I can see, and no reason to think he did anything particularly interesting in between losing sight of Martin and Martin coming back to attack him. > [@](#): > > Food for thought (like they care LOL). It’s making me think you’re clutching at irrelevant straws, in an attempt to draw attention away from the fact that you can’t show Zimmerman wasn’t defending himself. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7530 "2012-11-15T01:58:05Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > ] > > 1. what evidence? Cite one thing he did wrong before he was assaulted. > > 2. Cite the evidence he was defending himself. > > 3. cite or admit you made this up. > > 4. Yes there is a reason for Zimmerman to take the steps he took that night. He is part of a neighborhood watch. \*\* There is ZERO evidence that Zimmerman laid a finger on Martin. ZERO.\*\* 1. First, he wasn’t assaulted. I think I have devoted dozens of posts as to what I think ZImmerman did wrong that night. But you asked for one, so I will give it to you: profiling Martin and following him with a loaded gun. 2. The injuries, DeeDee’s testimony, the screams, Zimmerman’s statements to the operator, ZImmerman’s statements to the police, Zimmerman’s reenactments, the fact that he was on his way home and Zimmerman was after him. 3. We can’t have a good laugh? 4. Neighborhood watch, eh? From where, Terminator 2? If he was on duty (which I don’t believe he said he was at the time), then that’s going to open up a whole can of worms for the development legally. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7531 "2012-11-15T02:02:54Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I assume Zimmerman can. If it matters, he’ll be asked at the trial. > > **I don’t know any of those things, but I’ve no particular reason to care about it.** There’s no reason to think he _didn’t_ go back, as far as I can see, and no reason to think he did anything particularly interesting in between losing sight of Martin and Martin coming back to attack him. > > It’s making me think you’re clutching at irrelevant straws, in an attempt to draw attention away from the fact that you can’t show Zimmerman wasn’t defending himself. Too bad you don’t see that this would destroy Zimmerman’s story (as if it isn’t already damaged). I think I have been explaining for weeks why it is not self-defense. You can’t chase someone like that, scare them and then shoot them when they rightfully try to defend themselves. Sorry I missed the bolded statement reply; 1. Also, no evidence? Maybe it’s late and you’re tired to write something like that. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7532 "2012-11-15T02:11:33Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Too bad you don’t see that this would destroy Zimmerman’s story (as if it isn’t already damaged). No, it wouldn’t destroy his story at all, as it says absolutely nothing about why he shot Martin. > [@](#): > > I think I have been explaining for weeks why it is not self-defense. I think otherwise. You’ve _claimed_ it wasn’t self defence, and every time you’ve been questioned on it, you’ve changed the subject. Like right now, where you’re claiming that some uncertainty over exactly where Zimmerman parked his truck destroys his whole story, and proves it wasn’t self defence. > [@](#): > > You can’t chase someone like that, scare them and then shoot them when they rightfully try to defend themselves. Actually, you can in Florida, even if you started the fight, if the person “defending themselves” puts you in reasonable fear of death or serious injury, and you have no other way to escape apart from shooting them. The reason for the quotes is that, of course, one doesn’t defend oneself by doing that. At least, not successfully. That’s not overly relevant, though, as following someone, with or without a loaded gun, and asking them what they are doing **cannot** put someone in reasonable fear of attack. There is no evidence whatsoever that Zimmerman did anything Martin was allowed to use force to defend himself from. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7533 "2012-11-15T02:14:41Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > 1. Also, no evidence? Maybe it’s late and you’re tired to write something like that. Also, you added this onto the wrong post (maybe it’s late and you’re too tired to edit correctly), but I’ll answer it anyway. There is, in fact, zero evidence that Zimmerman laid a hand on Martin before Martin punched him. If you believe this claim is false, show the evidence. Don’t simply claim that the evidence exists, cite it. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7534 "2012-11-15T02:18:06Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, it wouldn’t destroy his story at all, as it says absolutely nothing about why he shot Martin. > > I think otherwise. You’ve _claimed_ it wasn’t self defence, and every time you’ve been questioned on it, you’ve changed the subject. Like right now, where you’re claiming that some uncertainty over exactly where Zimmerman parked his truck destroys his whole story, and proves it wasn’t self defence. > > Actually, you can in Florida, even if you started the fight, if the person “defending themselves” puts you in reasonable fear of death or serious injury, and you have no other way to escape apart from shooting them. The reason for the quotes is that, of course, one doesn’t defend oneself by doing that. At least, not successfully. > > That’s not overly relevant, though, as following someone, with or without a loaded gun, and asking them what they are doing **cannot** put someone in reasonable fear of attack. There is no evidence whatsoever that Zimmerman did anything Martin was allowed to use force to defend himself from. No again, I say it was not self defense because of the totality of his actions: he saw Martin as a criminal and was determined that Martin “the asshole” would not get away. He stalked him that night. Martin fled from him. Zimmerman himself said he was not afraid of Martin… Again, this can’t be self-defense. Again, Zimmerman put himself in that situation. The law does not protect him. We disagree on that. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7535 "2012-11-15T02:23:46Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > 1. First, he wasn’t assaulted. OMG, you’re barking. He’s (Zimmerman) has clearly been assaulted. There is no dispute here. > [@betenoire39](#): > > I think I have devoted dozens of posts as to what I think ZImmerman did wrong that night. you’ve devoted more than a dozen posts posting opinion that was legally incorrect. > [@betenoire39](#): > > But you asked for one, so I will give it to you: profiling Martin and following him with a loaded gun. It’s been pointed out to you time and again that there is nothing wrong with what Zimmerman did. He called the police because he saw someone in the rain at night standing on property that wasn’t his and looking around. He had every right to call the police and he did. At no time did he attempt to detain Martin during the call and stood down from even following him when asked. > [@betenoire39](#): > > 1. The injuries, DeeDee’s testimony, the screams, Zimmerman’s statements to the operator, ZImmerman’s statements to the police, Zimmerman’s reenactments, the fact that he was on his way home and Zimmerman was after him. The injuries of the fight are all Zimmerman’s except for one abrasion on the front of Martin’s fist. > [@betenoire39](#): > > 1. Neighborhood watch, eh? From where, Terminator 2? If he was on duty (which I don’t believe he said he was at the time), then that’s going to open up a whole can of worms for the development legally. There is no “duty” to be on. It’s a volunteer watch. Zimmerman literally documents himself watching Martin the whole time he’s on the phone. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7536 "2012-11-15T02:27:46Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Again, Zimmerman put himself in that situation. The law does not protect him. We disagree on that. Zimmerman was where he said he was and where the evidence shows the fight started. Martin was not where he said he was and the fight started in the direction Martin came from. He had to travel back to that point. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7537 "2012-11-15T02:34:08Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > No again, I say it was not self defense because of the totality of his actions: he saw Martin as a criminal and was determined that Martin “the asshole” would not get away. He stalked him that night. Martin fled from him. The totality of his actions are utterly and completely irrelevant. His state of mind at the moment he shot Martin is what’s relevant. If he was in reasonable fear, he is innocent of any crime under Florida law. Also, stop saying he stalked him. This was the first time they had encountered each other, stalking requires an ongoing pattern of behaviour. It’s ridiculous to keep using that word. > [@](#): > > Zimmerman himself said he was not afraid of Martin… False. He says he was defending himself because he feared further injury. > [@](#): > > Again, this can’t be self-defense. False. > [@](#): > > Again, Zimmerman put himself in that situation. The law does not protect him. We disagree on that. False. Martin put him in that situation when he was on top of him, causing him reasonable fear of death or serious injury, and the law exists precisely to protect him. We disagree on this solely because you do not understand the law or the evidence, and think that your dislike of the fact that Martin is dead means it must be illegal. It doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Jiha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dfb087/32.png) [@Jiha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jiha)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7538 "2012-11-15T02:34:10Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Also, you added this onto the wrong post (maybe it’s late and you’re too tired to edit correctly), but I’ll answer it anyway. There is, in fact, zero evidence that Zimmerman laid a hand on Martin before Martin punched him. And what evidence is there that Martin punched Zimmerman? Zimmerman’s own word, nothing more. But Zimmerman’s credibility is low due to the apparent inconsistencies in his story, a few outright fabrications he has made, and the lack of physical evidence supporting his claims about the fight. This is why we have juries. Maybe he’s telling the truth, maybe not, but a kid walking home from the store died, and there is only his killer’s word to suggest he deserved to die. If Martin were a 16 year old white chick, but everything else about Zimmerman’s story remained the same, would there be any question that an intensive criminal investigation would be warranted? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7539 "2012-11-15T02:38:32Z")
> [@Jiha](#): > > And what evidence is there that Martin punched Zimmerman? There are documented injuries by medical personnel that coincide with multiple witness descriptions of Zimmerman’s facial injuries. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7540 "2012-11-15T02:40:27Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Also, you added this onto the wrong post (maybe it’s late and you’re too tired to edit correctly), but I’ll answer it anyway. There is, in fact, zero evidence that Zimmerman laid a hand on Martin before Martin punched him. > > If you believe this claim is false, show the evidence. Don’t simply claim that the evidence exists, cite it. Again, didn’t DeeDee say that Martin was screaming “let go, let go”? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7541 "2012-11-15T02:40:38Z")
> [@Jiha](#): > > And what evidence is there that Martin punched Zimmerman? > > Zimmerman’s own word, nothing more. But Zimmerman’s credibility is low due to the apparent inconsistencies in his story, a few outright fabrications he has made, and the lack of physical evidence supporting his claims about the fight. The injuries to Zimmerman’s face and Martin’s fist, and the witnesses that saw the fight. Ok, it’s possible Martin didn’t punch Zimmerman. Maybe he headbutted him. Maybe he was a secret ninja and it was a flying kick. That doesn’t really matter. What matters is that Zimmerman’s statement is backed up by all the evidence, and contradicted by none. > [@](#): > > This is why we have juries. Maybe he’s telling the truth, maybe not, but a kid walking home from the store died, and there is only his killer’s word to suggest he deserved to die. No-one has suggested he deserved to die. Good job pretending we do think that, it will give the weak minded another reason to lynch Zimmerman despite the lack of evidence of his guilt. > [@](#): > > If Martin were a 16 year old white chick, but everything else about Zimmerman’s story remained the same, would there be any question that an intensive criminal investigation would be warranted? There is no question that, in this case as in your hypothetical, an intensive criminal investigation was warranted. Fortunately, such an investigation has occurred. Unfortunately, the evidence gathered in said investigation is being ignored by the prosecutors and several posters in this thread, yourself included, who continue to falsely claim Zimmerman should be charged with anything. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7542 "2012-11-15T02:43:19Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Again, didn’t DeeDee say that Martin was screaming “let go, let go”? and again, she says she hears “let go, let go” a little bit. She is asked to repeat this and again she says she hears it a little bit. Unless you wish to posit that this was whispered by Martin the logical conclusion is that a voice farther away was picked up. There were only 2 people there which makes the person who said it Zimmerman. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=376) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=378)