# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 38
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/741 "2012-04-23T21:14:14Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Or, Zimmerman could be prone to spontaneous nosebleeds. Like I am. > > Or, Zimmerman’s nose wasn’t bleeding at all; his face was contaminated with Martin’s blood and the cops assumed it was from his nose. The new Zimmerman lawyer has given the prosecution medical records showing Zimmerman had a broken nose. Do you think they were fraudulent? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/742 "2012-04-23T21:21:33Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The new Zimmerman lawyer has given the prosecution medical records showing Zimmerman had a broken nose. Do you think they were fraudulent? They could be, but I don’t know. I put more stock in evidence collected at the scene. Injuries can be self-inflicted. It’ll be interesting to see whether Zimmerman’s radiographs (if any) suggest a break so severe it’s unlikely he would have been able to delay medical care until the following day without being a bleeding mess and in extreme discomfort. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/743 "2012-04-23T21:24:58Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The records of his calls are online. Go to town. Count the black vs white (vs no race mentioned) references. > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Fear Itself > This will be one of the pieces of evidence entered at trial. If GZ called police 45 times with suspicious persons reports, and 43 of them were black, it demonstrates a pattern of profiling blacks as suspicious, even if there he reported two whites. Shouldn’t it also be correlated against the percentage of convictions for burglary and theft in Sanford.? Not arrests. The police might be profiling also. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/744 "2012-04-23T21:34:33Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I think you misread both what \*\*Bricker \*\*told you and the law. He probably said that bloody nose is enough of an indicator that great bodily harm was feared. Not that bloody nose is an indicator of great bodily harm inflicted. If that’s the case, that’s not very troubling. I don’t believe the court will be persuaded that Zimmerman had a reasonable fear of death or permanent disfigurement at the hands of Trayvon Martin. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/745 "2012-04-23T22:07:18Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > If that’s the case, that’s not very troubling. I don’t believe the court will be persuaded that Zimmerman had a reasonable fear of death or permanent disfigurement at the hands of Trayvon Martin. I think you’re wrong. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/746 "2012-04-23T23:19:48Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > So what if a spike in crime led Zimmerman to be extra distrustful? All that means is that Zimmerman prejudged Martin for reasons that had nothing to do with Martin’s behavior, and all to do with him being extra jumpy about break-ins in the neighborhoods. Yes it did. Yes he did. He saw someone he had never seen before, used previous data to come to an incorrect conclusion. Its called being Human. Come join us. > [@](#): > > To bad Martin didn’t have ESP and couldn’t deduce what Zimmerman was thinking and why he was thinking it. All he could see is some creepy guy following and then running after him. Ive never heard the part of running after him. But then as I have said before, there is so much bad info it is hard to believe anything any longer. What were Martins choices? 1: Run Home and make the guy chase him. 2. He could have deferred to the nearest home and ring the bell saying a suspicious man was following him and he was in danger 3. He could have hung up on his g/f and called dad 4. He could have hung up on his g/f and called 911 5: He could assault the guy following him. Of all these choices, which one is _ **most** _ likely to get you shot? Zimmerman was wrong to play Oscar Officer. Martin was wrong for choosing aggression. Had Martin choose #s 1-4, I sincerely doubt Zimmerman would have shot him. I know many of you will disagree with this, because Zimmerman has been convicted of a crime worse then death in the media. This case reminds me of the Duke Blue Devil LaCrosse team. Guilty until proven innocent. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/747 "2012-04-23T23:22:29Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > Of all these choices, which one is _ **most** _ likely to get you shot? Arguably, #2, for a 6’3" black teenager. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/748 "2012-04-23T23:27:45Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Martin asked Zimmerman a question first. “Why are you following me?” > > Based on Deedee’s statement, Zimmy didn’t answer that question. So it’s wrong to fault Martin for not divulging any information about himself without knowing the basis for Zimmerman’s behavior. It was a perfectly reasonable question he asked. > > For all the kid know, the guy was 100% psycho, so I don’t blame him from not volunteering the name of who he was visiting. Instead of putting the blame on Martin, you should be asking why Zimmerman didn’t announce that he was with the neighborhood watch. So if you were to learn that Zimmerman asked first, would that change anything about the above analysis? ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/749 "2012-04-23T23:30:19Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Martin was a non-resident of a gated community. The whole point of having a gate is for non-residents to keep out. There are a lot of black residents of Twin Lakes, but Zimmerman should know most of them by sight and more importantly they would know Zimmerman by sight and would not be inclined to run if they saw him. Martin was visiting a resident, but Zimmerman didn’t know that. Your whole argument is based on knowledge that Zimmerman could not be expected to know. Based on what Zimmerman knew, Martin was a trespasser. That turned out to be wrong, but if can’t discourage trespassers, then why bother to watch? Martin was a non-resident of a gated community with the gate usually left open. There was no guard; there was no keypad with a code required for entry. People could wander in and out as they pleased, just like Martin did when he went to the convenience store. A large portion of the occupants of the 250-home community were renters, which implies a certain amount of transience among the residents, and there is just no way that Zimmerman would be able to know most of the tenants by sight. > [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > When they actually met, If Zimmerman had answered Martin’s question, “Why are you following me?”, with “I think you are a burglar and I’m trying to keep an eye on you until the police get here.”, probably would not have helped. If Martin answered Zimmerman’s question, “What are you doing here.” with, “My father is visiting Brandy Green at xxxx Retreat View Circle.” would have defused the situation. Yes, I recommend all teenagers give out names and addresses to complete strangers with no official credentials who get out of their vehicles to chase them into dark footpaths. Very prudent move in today’s society. Perhaps Trayvon could also have offered up his social security number and his Facebook password, in the interest of good faith and full disclosure. > [@Shodan](#): > > You seemed to be saying that it was too dangerous to react to being asked what you are doing by saying what you are doing (or walking away) because the asker might be psycho. Under what circumstances is it safer to punch a psycho in the face than to ignore him, or walk away from him, or even answer his questions reasonably and find out that he is not a psycho but the local neighborhood watch? Well, speaking hypothetically, it’s safer to throw a punch in a whole lot of circumstances. It is more dangerous to ignore him if he continues to follow you or cuts off your access to your destination; it is more dangerous to walk away if he then attempts to detain you either by force or at gunpoint. And nine times out of ten, politely answering the questions of a psycho just gets you buried in John Wayne Gacy’s crawlspace. > [@Shodan](#): > > No, that happens sometimes. Spontaneously bleeding from the scalp is a lot less common. I don’t know. About 5 more pages of these arguments and I might break out in an impromptu scalp bleed myself. ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/750 "2012-04-23T23:32:58Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > 1: Run Home and make the guy chase him. > 2. He could have deferred to the nearest home and ring the bell saying a suspicious man was following him and he was in danger > 3. He could have hung up on his g/f and called dad > 4. He could have hung up on his g/f and called 911 > 5: He could assault the guy following him. > > Of all these choices, which one is _ **most** _ likely to get you shot? Well, in Zimmerman’s own words, Martin did choose door #1. Zimmerman stated that he ran away from the street and his vehicle and disappeared down the cut-through. And then Zimmerman chased him. So apparently your first choice is the most likely to get one shot. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/751 "2012-04-24T00:13:11Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So if you were to learn that Zimmerman asked first, would that change anything about the above analysis? If Zimmerman had asked first, Martin was well within his rights to stay silent. It is not illegal or threatening behavior to simply ignore someone. And before you jump on my case, Zimmerman was within his rights to evade Martin’s question too. My issue is with people faulting Martin for not quickly explaining his existence to a stranger who he found frightening enough to run away from, especially when this stranger refused to explain his conduct towards Martin. That strikes me as quite unfair. We teach kids to be wary of strangers for a reason. But somehow Martin was supposed to have known Zimmerman was an exception to this rule. Except (and this is the kicker) It turned out he wasnt so much of an exception. Martin’s initial instinct of running away from Zimmerman had been the right one. Too bad he didn’t know it at the time. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/752 "2012-04-24T02:13:17Z")
> [@sugaree](#): > > Martin was a non-resident of a gated community with the gate usually left open. There was no guard; there was no keypad with a code required for entry. People could wander in and out as they pleased, just like Martin did when he went to the convenience store. A large portion of the occupants of the 250-home community were renters, which implies a certain amount of transience among the residents, and there is just no way that Zimmerman would be able to know most of the tenants by sight. > . Can you can provide a cite for any this information about the gate. Except for the guard thing. Only high end gated communities have actual guards. If they had guards, why would need a Neighborhood watch? BTW, you failed to mention the Neighborhood Watch sign that Trayvon walked by out front. It seems kind of odd that he would freak out that someone was actually watching him. A lot of the residents of the **260** homes were renters, but they don’t seem to move that often. Brandy Green had been living there for 5 years. I know people who own that move more often than that. Zimmerman’s father was actually renting. You probably haven’t read that Zimmerman would actually go door to door introducing himself. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/753 "2012-04-24T02:14:23Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > And before you jump on my case, Zimmerman was within his rights to evade Martin’s question too. > > My issue is with people faulting Martin for not quickly explaining his existence to a stranger who he found frightening enough to run away from, especially when this stranger refused to explain his conduct towards Martin. That strikes me as quite unfair. I don’t take issue with this. If either Martin or Zimmerman had stated their case in some form of dialogue the fight wouldn’t have occurred. Both looked at the other with suspicion. I’ve been asked what I was doing within eyesight of my own house. I understood the question for what it was. I had a conversation. I’m still alive. I’ve also butted heads verbally with people who at least in their mind could have pounded me into the ground like a nail. I had a conversation. I’m still alive. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/754 "2012-04-24T02:21:57Z")
> [@sugaree](#): > > Well, in Zimmerman’s own words, Martin did choose door #1. Zimmerman stated that he ran away from the street and his vehicle and disappeared down the cut-through. And then Zimmerman chased him. So apparently your first choice is the most likely to get one shot. Didnt Zimmerman lose sight of Martin? He didnt chase him down and shoot him, he lost him. Martin showed up and confronted Zimmerman after Zimmerman lost him Thus, #1 isnt the case. We dont know if Zimmerman would have shot Martin if he caught him. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/755 "2012-04-24T02:26:47Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > Didnt Zimmerman lose sight of Martin? He didnt chase him down and shoot him, he lost him. > > Martin showed up and confronted Zimmerman after Zimmerman lost him. I don’t believe that story, not for a moment. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/756 "2012-04-24T02:49:52Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I don’t believe that story, not for a moment. So what youre saying is, you will only accept facts that support your predetermined opinion. You must have been part of the group that chased after the Duke Blue Devil LaCrosse team. But you know, I think I will use your methodology for the rest of the discussion. Lets see how that goes, shall we? ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/757 "2012-04-24T02:56:53Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > If Zimmerman had asked first, Martin was well within his rights to stay silent. It is not illegal or threatening behavior to simply ignore someone. > > And before you jump on my case, Zimmerman was within his rights to evade Martin’s question too. > > My issue is with people faulting Martin for not quickly explaining his existence to a stranger who he found frightening enough to run away from, especially when this stranger refused to explain his conduct towards Martin. That strikes me as quite unfair. Martin walked past this sign: [http://goo.gl/wrNjw](http://goo.gl/wrNjw) He would see it every time they drove back into the subdivision. Either he should have figured it out or Green should have explained it to him or both. Frankly, I don’t have a good feeling Green’s behavior about going out without explaining that to Trayvon. Frankly, Tracy Martin’s behavior was rather odd also. What kind of man goes to bed without knowing where his son is? I would have called everyone I knew and then called the police and calling the hospitals and then started driving around looking for him. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/758 "2012-04-24T03:01:35Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > So what youre saying is, you will only accept facts that support your predetermined opinion. So what you are saying is, there is no story too implausible to dent your predetermined opinion. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/759 "2012-04-24T03:06:40Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I’ve been asked what I was doing within eyesight of my own house. I understood the question for what it was. I had a conversation. I’m still alive. I’ve also butted heads verbally with people who at least in their mind could have pounded me into the ground like a nail. I had a conversation. I’m still alive. Martin was a teenaged boy without your frame of reference, though. You are an adult male, and Martin was a minor. No mother in their right mind would train their children to give out their name or address to a stranger, especially one that is radiating hostility like Zimmerman likely was. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/760 "2012-04-24T03:12:24Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Martin walked past this sign: > [http://goo.gl/wrNjw](http://goo.gl/wrNjw) I’m not sure what this sign is supposed to prove. I have the same one up in my neighborhood. You know what’s NOT on it? “At our discretion, we will run you down and demand to know what you are doing in this neighborhood. If you dont answer our questions, be prepared to die.” But thanks for reminding me that Zimmerman acted in contravention with neighborhood watch protocol, which is another indication that the guy has problems with following rules and exercising sound judgement. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=37) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=39)