# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 383
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7643 "2012-11-15T23:33:47Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No. But it’s okay to posit that Trayvon was beating up George. Based on the evidence of him being in top and Zimmerman’s injuries. Or Zimmerman having fallen to the ground with Martin in the scuffle is clinging to Martins hoody in an effort to prevent his escape. While Martin is pushing and shoving at Zimmerman in an attempt to break free. Injuries occur. Martin is close to pulling free of Zimmerman. Out comes gun in last ditch effort to exert [del]his authority[/del] control over the situation and bang it goes off. Maybe intentional, maybe unintentional, either way Martin pulls away from a stunned Zimmerman and collapses dead in short order. > [@](#): > > Normal practice for owners of this particular kind of weapon. Should be normal practice for anyone with a carry permit. Carrying without “one in the pipe” is just wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Redbrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Redbrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redbrow)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7644 "2012-11-15T23:33:56Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Then do explain how you decided that someone who never so much as brandished his gun is a trigger-happy cold-blooded murderer. > The state overcharged, quite blatantly and unethically, based on politics. As you will see when Zimmerman walks. Here is a time corrected version created by Diwataman. > **[Timeline Starting with George’s Call](https://diwataman.wordpress.com/2012/07/23/timeline-starting-with-georges-call/)** > > This is a work in progress(which means I will be adding and changing this blog or any other blog I do which states “work in progress” as time goes on) regarding times of calls and events starting w… 7:09:34 George Connection Time (4m4s phone call) (Event Report#2012571656) 7:13:41 last entry (Event Report#2012571656) 7:16:11 Possible Connection Time W11 (Media) 7:16:41 Possible Connection Time W3 (Media) 7:16:56 Gunshot 7:17:11 ARV I assume means arrival by Tim Smith (Event Report#2012571656) 7:17:36 PEU (Event Report#2012571656) 7:19:52 PEU (Event Report#2012571656) 7:20:21 REM (Event Report#2012571656) 7:20:30 Connection Time Possibly George calling 911 or just a duplicate report (Event Report), George does look like he is on the phone in the bloody head photo taken on scene by W13. (Event Report #20120571685) ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7645 "2012-11-15T23:35:58Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > I also love the constant claim from \*\*Magiver \*\*that “Martin went out of his way to confront Zimmerman.” > > Martin was walking home. Zimmerman was in his truck. Martin went behind the houses. Zimmerman got out of his truck and followed Marting behind the houses. How the bleeding hell is that Martin going out of his way and not Zimmerman? Because Zimmerman lost Martin, and the only way he could have found him again was if Martin, instead of going home, turned around and walked back to him. For reasons that almost certainly died with him, Martin made the decision not to go home, but back towards the guy he was supposedly scared of. > [@](#): > > Yes, I know, there’s nothing illegal about getting out of your truck and taking a little stroll. Especially when you’re a law-abiding gun owner who would never do anything wrong. Double especially if you have your gun with you while innocently trying to keep a sight-line on one of those “assholes who always get away.” Correct. In fact, trying to make sure the police could find him was a good, if stupid, thing to do. I’m sure you’d be happy to live in a neighbourhood where burglaries and assaults are ignored, or actively encouraged, but I’m not. That’s why I have no problem with Zimmerman’s actions, apart from the fact that he put himself at risk. > [@](#): > > I say again. Zimmerman was looking for Martin. And, holy shit, he found him. Zimmerman was the catalyst for this whole fucked up mess, not Martin. Bullshit. Martin’s trespassing and his attack on Zimmerman were the catalysts for this. There’s no evidence that Zimmerman did anything to justify Martin’s attack on him, and indeed no-one’s come up with a plausible suggestion of what he _could_ have done to justify such an attack. Based solely on the evidence we have, the rational conclusion is that Zimmerman was trying to look out for his neighbourhood, when Martin launched an unprovoked attack on him. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7646 "2012-11-15T23:36:24Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Then do explain how you decided that someone who never so much as brandished his gun is a trigger-happy cold-blooded murderer. Oh, I hold out the possibility that it was simple manslaughter. 😃 > [@](#): > > The state overcharged, quite blatantly and unethically, based on politics. As you will see when Zimmerman walks. Possibly and probably. And Zimmerman will likely have figuratively dodged a bullet thanks to Florida Law. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7647 "2012-11-15T23:37:45Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > How peculiar of you to put it this way. Do the known facts in any way _support_ your scenario? I mean, the known facts do not contradict all kinds of “scenarios”. Aliens may have come down in a cloaked craft, mind-controlled George and made him get his gun out and kill Martin. “The known facts do not contradict” this scenario, do they? They probably don’t account for it in a reasonable fashion either. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7648 "2012-11-15T23:38:02Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > That’s my basic take on the matter as well. And I fully expect Zimmerman to walk. And I think that’s a travesty. You think it’s a travesty that someone who can’t be proved to have committed a crime will walk? What the fuck is wrong with you? The travesty is that people are seriously suggesting that he should be tried, convicted, and punished despite there being no proof of any crime having been committed, let alone that he committed it. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7649 "2012-11-15T23:41:23Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > To be clear, I don’t think Zimmy just ganked Martin because he felt like it. > > What I suspect - in this “humble opinion and speculation thread” - is that Martin went scooting behind the houses to get away from Zimmerman and stopped to hide on one of the back decks. I figure he was just going to get out of sight and hide from whoever it was, whether it was some weirdo he was afraid of or just some guy he felt like jerking around doesn’t matter. He’d hang out back there and talk to his girlfriend. > > Zimmerman comes looking for him, rounds the corner, neither one knowing where the other one is and they stumble upon each other. > > Adrenaline rushes all around, it turns into, “What the fuck do you want?” “No. What the fuck do you want?” At whatever point, Zimmerman tells him the cops are on the way and he’s not going anywhere. > > Martin says, fuck that noise and pops Zimmy in the schnozz. Zimmy pulls him down with him, they struggle, Zimmy reaches for his problem solver - and I don’t believe for a second he would have gotten out of his truck with out it - and solves his problem by shooting Martin in the chest. If that’s what truly happened, Zimmerman actually committed no crime. Why, then, are you not complaining about the injustice in him being arrested and tried at all? ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7650 "2012-11-15T23:46:47Z")
I’ve no doubt that if Z actually admitted he murdered TM because he looked at him funny, there’d still be some in this thread demanding conclusive evidence of his guilt and blaming his turnaround on being got at. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7651 "2012-11-15T23:47:42Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > To be clear, I don’t think Zimmy just ganked Martin because he felt like it. > > What I suspect - in this “humble opinion and speculation thread” - is that Martin went scooting behind the houses to get away from Zimmerman and stopped to hide on one of the back decks. I figure he was just going to get out of sight and hide from whoever it was, whether it was some weirdo he was afraid of or just some guy he felt like jerking around doesn’t matter. He’d hang out back there and talk to his girlfriend. > > Zimmerman comes looking for him, rounds the corner, neither one knowing where the other one is and they stumble upon each other. > > Adrenaline rushes all around, it turns into, “What the fuck do you want?” “No. What the fuck do you want?” At whatever point, Zimmerman tells him the cops are on the way and he’s not going anywhere. > > Martin says, fuck that noise and pops Zimmy in the schnozz. Zimmy pulls him down with him, they struggle, Zimmy reaches for his problem solver - and I don’t believe for a second he would have gotten out of his truck with out it - and solves his problem by shooting Martin in the chest. > And a year from now, Zimmerman will be elected deputy-sherriff somewhere in Squeallikeapig, Florida. Close enough to what I believe happened and have posted previously. If Terr agrees to quit tossing the hyperbole grenades around, I’d even agree to find and link up my long winded explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7652 "2012-11-15T23:56:22Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > For reasons that almost certainly died with him, Martin made the decision not to go home, but back towards the guy he was supposedly scared of. No more a crime than Zimmerman following him. In other words. Not a crime. > [@](#): > > That’s why I have no problem with Zimmerman’s actions, apart from the fact that he put himself at risk. My neighborhood has a fair bit of crime and has a neighborhood watch. We are strongly discouraged from following or approaching suspicious individuals. Our liaison officer suggest to stay in our home or vehicle and report what can be observed from there. > [@](#): > > Based solely on the evidence we have, the rational conclusion is that Zimmerman was trying to look out for his neighbourhood, when Martin launched an unprovoked attack on him. Or reasonably conclude Zimmerman tried to effect a citizens arrest and things went horribly wrong. Either way it is still a tragedy for Martin and good luck for Zimmerman. If Zimmerman did not have a gun, do you really think that it was a certainty that someone would have died that night? ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2012, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7653 "2012-11-15T23:58:15Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You think it’s a travesty that someone who can’t be proved to have committed a crime will walk? What the fuck is wrong with you? The travesty is that people are seriously suggesting that he should be tried, convicted, and punished despite there being no proof of any crime having been committed, let alone that he committed it. Any system that strives to not convict an innocent man is bound to have travesties of justice. It is the price we pay for freedom and a presumption of innocence. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7654 "2012-11-16T00:03:02Z")
> [@Redbrow](#): > > Here is a time corrected version created by Diwataman. > [Timeline Starting with George’s Call | DiwataMan](http://diwataman.wordpress.com/2012/07/23/timeline-starting-with-georges-call/) > > 7:09:34 George Connection Time (4m4s phone call) (Event Report#2012571656) > 7:13:41 last entry (Event Report#2012571656) > 7:16:11 Possible Connection Time W11 (Media) > 7:16:41 Possible Connection Time W3 (Media) > 7:16:56 Gunshot > 7:17:11 ARV I assume means arrival by Tim Smith (Event Report#2012571656) > 7:17:36 PEU (Event Report#2012571656) > 7:19:52 PEU (Event Report#2012571656) > 7:20:21 REM (Event Report#2012571656) > 7:20:30 Connection Time Possibly George calling 911 or just a duplicate report (Event Report), George does look like he is on the phone in the bloody head photo taken on scene by W13. (Event Report #20120571685) From your link - > [@](#): > > 7:16:56 Gunshot > > 7:19:07 ABC Bloody Head Photo Metadata So, it would seem that just over 2 minutes after the gunshot, W13 was photographing Z’s head. There is no suggestion that the photo was taken in the presence of the police, so the idea that Tim Smith was there 20 seconds after the gunshot is patently bollocks. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7655 "2012-11-16T00:11:07Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > No more a crime than Zimmerman following him. In other words. Not a crime. Of course. I didn’t mean to suggest otherwise. > [@](#): > > My neighborhood has a fair bit of crime and has a neighborhood watch. We are strongly discouraged from following or approaching suspicious individuals. Our liaison officer suggest to stay in our home or vehicle and report what can be observed from there. Again, sensible. It’s done for the protection of the individual watching, and this case shows that people approaching suspected criminals can get injured. > [@](#): > > Or reasonably conclude Zimmerman tried to effect a citizens arrest and things went horribly wrong. Either way it is still a tragedy for Martin and good luck for Zimmerman. Hmm. I don’t think there’s any actual evidence that he attempted a citizen’s arrest, and without that I don’t think one can reasonably conclude that it happened. It’s not contradicted by the evidence, but, as **Terr** has (somewhat hyperbolically) pointed out, there are an unlimited number of scenarios not contradicted by the evidence, and we should not reasonably assume they are true. As for your second point, I agree it’s a tragedy for Martin. I’m not so sure it’s good luck for Zimmerman, though. I don’t think one can assume his life has been improved by the events of that night. > [@](#): > > If Zimmerman did not have a gun, do you really think that it was a certainty that someone would have died that night? No, I don’t. I don’t, however, believe that _any_ of Zimmerman’s actions, or the combination of them, lead to a situation where there was any certainty of someone dying. I don’t believe he took any actions that (a reasonable person would say) he should have known would lead to the death of another, prior to the gunshot. Here, I appear to disagree with **Bricker** , and the others who think it was manslaughter. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7656 "2012-11-16T00:14:33Z")
Oh, and using my earlier estimate of the likely length of the encounter being no more than 70 seconds, that would take us back from 7:16:56 to 7:15:40 thereabouts, leaving 2 minutes between the end of his phone call and his initial assault. Is it really likely that he took that long to get from RVC to the point where he was punched? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7657 "2012-11-16T00:18:59Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > Oh, I hold out the possibility that it was simple manslaughter. 😃 > Possibly and probably. And Zimmerman will likely have figuratively dodged a bullet thanks to Florida Law. No, thanks to being not guilty of the crime he is charged with. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7658 "2012-11-16T00:21:32Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > From your link - > > So, it would seem that just over 2 minutes after the gunshot, W13 was photographing Z’s head. There is no suggestion that the photo was taken in the presence of the police, so the idea that Tim Smith was there 20 seconds after the gunshot is patently bollocks. Sure, cuz all the clocks in your world are perfectly synced. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7659 "2012-11-16T00:21:34Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Oh, and using my earlier estimate of the likely length of the encounter being no more than 70 seconds, that would take us back from 7:16:56 to 7:15:40 thereabouts, leaving 2 minutes between the end of his phone call and his initial assault. Is it really likely that he took that long to get from RVC to the point where he was punched? What you think is likely is irrelevant, when the evidence shows otherwise. The evidence shows the fight lasted longer than 70 seconds. It doesn’t matter how exceptionally unlikely that was. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7660 "2012-11-16T00:26:40Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Sure, cuz all the clocks in your world are perfectly synced. Are you saying there is a +/- amount that can be added to any of those times, therefore invalidating any reference to them? ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7661 "2012-11-16T00:28:47Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > What you think is likely is irrelevant, when the evidence shows otherwise. The evidence shows the fight lasted longer than 70 seconds. It doesn’t matter how exceptionally unlikely that was. What evidence shows even approximately how long the fight lasted? We know how much of it was recorded by witnesses, but how have you established how long the fight had been occuring prior to any callers picking up the disturbance on their phone? Go on, tell us how long you estimate or know the fight to be. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7662 "2012-11-16T00:47:57Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Unless someone wants to claim that DD is lying, her interview clearly suggests that Z didn’t first spot Trayvon conveniently by Frank Taafe’s house, looking shifty and covetous. > If TM was already sheltering near the mailboxes and hadn’t yet mentioned seeing Z, that means that the beginning of Z’s story at least is a total fabrication. OK, how exactly does Martin know when Zimmerman first saw him? > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > But, rather than consider this, I’m sure some will prefer to address DD’s speech quirks and why “by his house” has to mean right outside his dad’s address. “By his house” indicates he’s right outside his dad’s address because the statement was made as an explanation to Dee Dee why he doesn’t have to run. He’s already there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=382) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=384)