# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 384
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7663 "2012-11-16T00:48:27Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Sure, cuz all the clocks in your world are perfectly synced. W13 must be lying. In his first interview at 1:50 he says “and a couple of minutes later a Sanford police officer came up.” This was over a hour after the incident, so he’d obviously had plenty of time to cook up a lie to make you look bad. [http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/witness-13-files-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case/](http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/witnesses/witness-13-files-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-case/) ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7664 "2012-11-16T00:54:28Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > OK, how exactly does Martin know when Zimmerman first saw him? Erm… because he pulled up on Twin Trees Lane right in front of him, maybe? > [@Magiver](#): > > “By his house” indicates he’s right outside his dad’s address because the statement was made as an explanation to Dee Dee why he doesn’t have to run. He’s already there. Nice psychic powers there, but a trustworthy medium I know is telling me that Trayvon says he told DD he wasn’t running because he didn’t think he needed to at that point and “by his house” really did mean “a couple of blocks away.” It seemed pointless explaining exactly where he was, bearing in mind DD wasn’t looking at google maps while chatting with him. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7665 "2012-11-16T01:10:49Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Erm… because he pulled up on Twin Trees Lane right in front of him, maybe? Erm is right. Another one of your poorly thought out What If’s. Zimmerman lives on Retreat View Cir. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Nice psychic powers there, but a trustworthy medium I know is telling me that Trayvon says he told DD he wasn’t running because he didn’t think he needed to at that point and “by his house” really did mean “a couple of blocks away.” It seemed pointless explaining exactly where he was, bearing in mind DD wasn’t looking at google maps while chatting with him. He clearly states this as an answer to why he’s not running to his house at her suggestion. Dee Dee quote: I said, ‘Keep running.’ He said he ain’t gonna run. 'Cause he said he is right by his father’s house. She then says a couple minutes later the man is following him again. Martin then engages Zimmerman in conversation. So in the space of 2 minutes Martin says he’s right by his father’s house and he then confronts Zimmerman at the intersection of the T. His statements are not conjecture. The location of the fight is not conjecture. If he was at the intersection of the T the entire time he would have been seen. Therefore, his statements to Dee Dee show he had to travel back from his house toward Zimmerman. This is exactly where Zimmerman describes the direction Martin came from. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7666 "2012-11-16T01:14:24Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Are you saying there is a +/- amount that can be added to any of those times, therefore invalidating any reference to them? Same clock differences are valid. Differences between different clocks are not. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7667 "2012-11-16T01:21:52Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Erm is right. Another one of your poorly thought out What If’s. Zimmerman lives on Retreat View Cir. Going by Z’s poor sense of direction, he’d probably been driving around that maze of streets for 20 minutes looking for the exit. If you want to accept TM was coincidentally outside of Frank Taafe’s when Z spotted him, you carry on believing. > [@Magiver](#): > > He clearly states this as an answer to why he’s not running to his house at her suggestion. Dee Dee quote: I said, ‘Keep running.’ He said he ain’t gonna run. 'Cause he said he is right by his father’s house. > > She then says a couple minutes later the man is following him again. Martin then engages Zimmerman in conversation. So in the space of 2 minutes Martin says he’s right by his father’s house and he then confronts Zimmerman at the intersection of the T. His statements are not conjecture. The location of the fight is not conjecture. If he was at the intersection of the T the entire time he would have been seen. Therefore, his statements to Dee Dee show he had to travel back from his house toward Zimmerman. This is exactly what Zimmerman describes the direction Martin came from. So, what you are saying is, in the time it took Z to walk across to RVC and back to where he’s supposed to have been jumped, TM had ran all the way to the bottom, had a little chat with DD and then headed right back to the point he’d just ran from, and didn’t give her one indication of what he was doing from that point on? And you are attributing this to some sort of slight Trayvon felt about Z’s behaviour, or is there more to your theory? ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7668 "2012-11-16T01:24:43Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Same clock differences are valid. Differences between different clocks are not. And W13 is a lying liar or grossly mistaken, while Officer Smith’s neglection of any mention of W13 even being there is just an inconsequential oversight? ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7669 "2012-11-16T01:33:04Z")
It doesn’t make any sort of rational sense for Trayvon to run all the way home, then when he’d got his breath back, head all the way back to the point he’d just ran from. Is it being suggested that Trayvon’s mental faculties had been retarded by the pot he was smoking, or something? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7670 "2012-11-16T01:50:09Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > It doesn’t make any sort of rational sense for Trayvon to run all the way home, then when he’d got his breath back, head all the way back to the point he’d just ran from. So you disbelieve Trayvon when he says that he’s next to his father’s house? ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7671 "2012-11-16T02:50:28Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > So you disbelieve Trayvon when he says that he’s next to his father’s house? Was it his father’s or the girlfriends? If he wasn’t familiar with the place he may have been confused to exactly where he was. The overhead shots show the development composed of uniform structures. Certainly a possibility that he thought he was “home” but was a unit or two off. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7672 "2012-11-16T02:57:55Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Hmm. I don’t think there’s any actual evidence that he attempted a citizen’s arrest, and without that I don’t think one can reasonably conclude that it happened. It’s not contradicted by the evidence, but, as **Terr** has (somewhat hyperbolically) pointed out, there are an unlimited number of scenarios not contradicted by the evidence, and we should not reasonably assume they are true. From the court’s perspective I agree. From a personal opinion based on my what my gut says about Zimmerman’s character I disagree. > [@](#): > > No, I don’t. I don’t, however, believe that _any_ of Zimmerman’s actions, or the combination of them, lead to a situation where there was any certainty of someone dying. I don’t believe he took any actions that (a reasonable person would say) he should have known would lead to the death of another, prior to the gunshot. > > Here, I appear to disagree with **Bricker** , and the others who think it was manslaughter. However all evidence being as it is I think Zimmerman would be in a lot more hot water in most other states. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7673 "2012-11-16T03:00:00Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > Was it his father’s or the girlfriends? > If he wasn’t familiar with the place he may have been confused to exactly where he was. The overhead shots show the development composed of uniform structures. Certainly a possibility that he thought he was “home” but was a unit or two off. Sure. Or maybe he meant “next to” as in “in the same Solar system”. Etc. etc. Or maybe you use Occam’s razor and consider that “next to” actually means “next to”. A revolutionary approach, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7674 "2012-11-16T03:26:34Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Going by Z’s poor sense of direction, he’d probably been driving around that maze of streets for 20 minutes looking for the exit. If you want to accept TM was coincidentally outside of Frank Taafe’s when Z spotted him, you carry on believing. There’s no indication Zimmerman has a poor sense of direction. He gave exact instructions to the police as to where he wanted them to go. If you want to believe Dee Dee is able to ascertain when Martin knew when Zimmerman first saw him then that’s a pretty good trick. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > So, what you are saying is, in the time it took Z to walk across to RVC and back to where he’s supposed to have been jumped, TM had ran all the way to the bottom, had a little chat with DD and then headed right back to the point he’d just ran from, and didn’t give her one indication of what he was doing from that point on? that’s what the evidence shows. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > And you are attributing this to some sort of slight Trayvon felt about Z’s behaviour, or is there more to your theory? I’m attributing the location of the fight to the evidence. I’m attributing the location where Martin was minutes prior to the fight on his conversation with Dee Dee. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7675 "2012-11-16T03:41:21Z")
By the way, this is what initially convinced me of Zimmerman’s innocence. This is from the initial interview with the police, immediately after the incident: Serino: OK. Gotta ask that. Um, like I said, this child has no criminal record whatsoever, ah, good kid. A mild-mannered kid. Part of what I’ve been doing the last couple days is trying to get into his head, a psychological profile, and find out what his likes are, dislikes are, his hobbies, all the rest of that stuff. And one of his hobbies happens to be the videotaping of everything he does. OK. He has, has a library, very impressive, going through his phone, we got a little bit, but the battery died. We’re still working on that.\*\* There’s a possibility that whatever happened between you and him is caught on videotape. And this is going to be our final interview. I’m not gonna talk to you any more after this. We’re good, you know what I’m saying? That right there, that’s his cell phone.\*\* Zimmerman: Yes, sir. Serino: OK. That’s a camera. **Um, there’s a very strong possibility that what’s on there is either gonna help you or, you know, not help you**. And that’s why I gotta clarify a few things about what happened out there. Um, how tall are you, how much do you weigh? Zimmerman: Ah, 5-8, ah, 194. Serino: OK. Trayvon’s about 6 foot, about 150 pounds. (Gets out a photograph)That’s him, that’s the gunshot you put in him, it went right through his heart. OK, um, a skinny kid. Obviously, like I said, a lot of questions are being brought up, um, he was unarmed. Ah, he… But like I said, because of, I mean, obviously you passed a lie detector test and you’ve done all that, but, like I said, **if there’s anything that you haven’t said, that might be in that phone** … Zimmerman: **I prayed to God that someone videotaped it** Serino: Would be videotaping this. Zimmerman: **Or the neighborhood had put up a video camera that I didn’t know about or something.** ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7676 "2012-11-16T04:03:42Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Sure. Or maybe he meant “next to” as in “in the same Solar system”. Etc. etc. Hyperbole much? Do you deny the units are all very similar? Had Martin spent extensive time in and around the neighborhood? Please don’t confuse me with the calculated murder bunch. I’m more in the unintentional homicide / manslaughter camp if you insist on labels. > [@](#): > > Or maybe you use Occam’s razor and consider that “next to” actually means “next to”. A revolutionary approach, isn’t it? What does Occam say about the likely actions of the guy with a strong desire to be an authority figure? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7677 "2012-11-16T04:05:58Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > What does Occam say about the likely actions of the guy with a strong desire to be an authority figure? Occam’s razor says that since the guy does not have any history of gun use even brandishing much less shooting one in anger, theorizing that he shot someone in cold blood to prevent them from getting away is idiocy. That’s YOUR theory. Don’t tell me you’re in “unintentional homicide” camp. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7678 "2012-11-16T05:18:37Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > 1. I’m with you on the unjustly part. With Florida law and the known evidence being what they are, it doesn’t look good for proving it was illegal. > 2. Maybe in hick country USA, but in this forum and especially from the Europeans here, I’d be surprised if that is the case with even one. > 3. Shouldn’t there only be two choices for an “either”? 😉 > 4. I agree, however I don’t think that gave Martin justification for striking him. That is an escalation and probably puts Zimmerman back on the right side of the law. I still think Martin “fighting” to get away from Zimmerman’s restraint is the likely cause for Zimmerman’s injuries and is consistent with the known evidence. > 5. Racial stereotypes or an attempt at logical reasoning? There is much we don’t know about the events and people are trying to make sense of it. Such as: > “Why would Marting strike Zimmerman?” > It seems an odd thing to do. So one can look at what evidence there is and suppose that Martin fancied himself a hard ass and wasn’t going to be disrespected. Presuming innocence of the charged party, that is a reasonable place to start. Or alternatively one can posit that Zimmerman did something that incited such a response from an otherwise easy going 17 year old. Such as physically restraining him. 1. Even though both of the lawyers (including Bricker) say otherwise? 2. Come on…come on. I have traveled around the globe, whether you want to believe me or not. That is a naive statement to make–extremely naive. Why would there be the need for someone supposedly from the UK to use racial slurs? Or rant and rave about “black crime”? But online, all I have to go on is what is written. Statements were made and implications were made that led me to my conclusions. 3. Please give me a break: I am sorry, ok? Either–only two. Sorry. 1. Again, I feel Martin was fighting for his life. I am surprised for such a superhuman MMA fighter, he inflicted so little damage against his killer… Wasn’t he taught how to disable an attacker? ---
**Author:** ![Saraya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Saraya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saraya)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7679 "2012-11-16T08:58:18Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > I just hope this case results in some reform of the SYG and Self Defense laws in Florida. I know that no system can be infallible, but I think Florida’s could be a bit better. > > The only sure outcome is justice will not be served in this case. We’d have to look at other cases of successful SYG, in order to determine how much reform, if any is needed. The law is inherently good in that it stops those ridiculous scenarios where a criminal can attack someone and get away with it (which often seems to happen in other states where the criminal somehow becomes a victim), and in a weird twist, the victim becomes the criminal. This is why it’s so pertinent to the Zimmerman case. If they acquit Zimmerman, then Florida’s views on SYG/Self Defense has worked - justice would be served under the preface. It’s hard to stomach that a killer might go free, but it’s harder to stomach that innocents goto jail. We are not a barbaric society - if we were, there would be no jails, only gallows and mass graves. ---
**Author:** ![Saraya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Saraya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saraya)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7680 "2012-11-16T10:42:40Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > The only sure outcome is justice will not be served in this case. Your definition of justice maybe. Seeking truth and seeking justice are not the same. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7681 "2012-11-16T11:09:33Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > By the way, this is what initially convinced me of Zimmerman’s innocence. This is from the initial interview with the police, immediately after the incident: Actually, it’s from the interview 3 days after. Plenty of time for his pal Osterman to have walked his route and double-checked there were no home cctv cameras in sneaky places. Also, if Z is on the NW comittee, there aren’t going to be HOA authorised cctv cameras going up that he wouldn’t know about, so it seems that basically, you don’t think he’s guilty because he invoked God’s name to imply that he’d be relieved if there was an unknown recording of his actions somewhere. Z doesn’t have to be a genius to know that if he started the fight near the location the body was found, there’d be no home owners with cctv that were going to have documented his behaviour. He walks that neighbourhood daily with his dog, and has an eye for noticing who has windows opened, so if anyone had installed their own cctv system, he’d have noticed. Z KNEW that Serino was just fishing and that he only had to respond in his normal, humble style and throw in an appeal to God, in reply to such an obvious ploy. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7682 "2012-11-16T11:32:38Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Occam’s razor says that since the guy does not have any history of gun use even brandishing much less shooting one in anger, theorizing that he shot someone in cold blood to prevent them from getting away is idiocy. That’s YOUR theory. Don’t tell me you’re in “unintentional homicide” camp. Occam would also have said it was idiocy to theorize Thomas Hamilton was likely to shoot up a school classroom full of children. Or, if you want a more familiar name, Charles Whitman, the belltower shooter. > [@](#): > > On the surface, Charles Whitman would have seemed as steady and upstanding as the Texas Tower itself. He came from a wealthy, prominent family in Lake Worth, Florida. He was a gifted student, an accomplished pianist, and an Eagle Scout. But the trappings of the Whitman home concealed turmoil. Unlikely doesn’t mean impossible. Z had only had his gun since 09/10, so don’t go talking as if he’d been carrying one all his adult life and never used it recklessly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=383) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=385)