# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 385
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7683 "2012-11-16T12:41:51Z")
> [@Saraya](#): > > We’d have to look at other cases of successful SYG, in order to determine how much reform, if any is needed. > > The law is inherently good in that it stops those ridiculous scenarios where a criminal can attack someone and get away with it (which often seems to happen in other states where the criminal somehow becomes a victim), and in a weird twist, the victim becomes the criminal. How many of these cases per year are there? Do you have a few examples I can cast my eyes over to see what kind of problem we are dealing with? How often is this happening that the only solution is to give more leeway to people who use deadly force to solve their problems? ---
**Author:** ![Saraya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Saraya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saraya)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7684 "2012-11-16T12:57:07Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > How many of these cases per year are there? Do you have a few examples I can cast my eyes over to see what kind of problem we are dealing with? > > How often is this happening that the only solution is to give more leeway to people who use deadly force to solve their problems? In Florida alone or all over the U.S.? If it’s the latter, then you should be able to easily find (especially in the past twenty years) cases where self defense victims have been penalized or convicted - most often because of use of violence as a deterrent to their attacker. The most common case is armed burglars. There’s a ridiculous statute(s) or amendments to such, where upon a home owner has to identify himself if an unknown person is in their home. Some go as far as to clarify whether the perpetrator is facing or has his back turned to the property owner. The fact that things like SYG have even been enacted, or written into law suggests that we had an overflow of cases where the victim or defendant was being treated inappropriately by the system and it was time that something was done about it. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7685 "2012-11-16T12:57:57Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > By the way, this is what initially convinced me of Zimmerman’s innocence. This is from the initial interview with the police, immediately after the incident: > > \ > Zimmerman: **I prayed to God that someone videotaped it** Oh FFS - OF COURSE he’s going to say that. What, you think he’s suddenly going to break down sobbing, “Oh, there -might- be video of an encounter that happened in pitch darkness on a rainy night? **sob** you got me, I confess, I throw myself at the mercy of the court” :rolleyes: Ever seen a kid get caught utterly red-handed with his hand in the cookie jar and yet insist on a stack of bibles 10 feet tall he’s innocent? Ever seen an episode of Cheaters? The show will confront guys about their cheatin’ ways, and the guys will deny up and down anything going on, even as the show begins laying hints that they have video of 'em in the act. No matter, they’ll deny deny deny right up until they roll the tape. Hell, guys will get caught literally with their pecker getting a feather-dusting, and will still insist that there’s ‘nothing going on, it’s all a misunderstanding’. Zimmerman would of -course- say he ‘hopes there’s evidence that backs him up’, because he can’t say anything else. Also, as head of the neighborhood watch I can’t think of anyone -better qualified- to know whether or not there were any video cameras installed behind the houses. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7686 "2012-11-16T13:08:25Z")
Well done on presuming him guilty. Shameful. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7687 "2012-11-16T15:22:54Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Occam’s razor says that since the guy does not have any history of gun use even brandishing much less shooting one in anger, theorizing that he shot someone in cold blood to prevent them from getting away is idiocy. That’s YOUR theory. Don’t tell me you’re in “unintentional homicide” camp. Terr your powers of telepathy are amazing. Thank you for telling me what I am thinking. 😃 Double action only… one in the pipe… Not unprecedented to have an accidental discharge. Desires to be seen as an authority figure… prone to violence… Maybe he did just shoot the kid to keep him from getting away. So you think Occam favors as the likely aggressor the guy with suspensions for pot, graffiti, and skipping school over the guy arrested for resisting arrest with violence and who once had a restraining order against him for domestic violence? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7688 "2012-11-16T15:35:59Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Here, I appear to disagree with **Bricker** , and the others who think it was manslaughter. There are two opinions of mine to consider: (1) I think it was, legally, manslaughter. (2) I think the evidence that we know about is legally sufficient to prove manslaughter. You may disagree with both, of course, but it might be valuable to separate them out. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7689 "2012-11-16T15:38:58Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > 1. Even though both of the lawyers (including Bricker) say otherwise? Don’t get me wrong: I think the evidence is legally sufficient to prove manslaughter, and I think what actually happened, if we could have an omniscient view of all the facts, is legally manslaughter. But I don’t think the state’s path to a guilty verdict for manslaughter is assured. The jury could easily believe Zimmerman and acquit completely. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7690 "2012-11-16T15:54:19Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Wow, seriously? You think Zimmerman broke his own nose, blackened his own eyes, and lacerated his own head - all in about 15 seconds from the time the shot sounded to the time police arrived? > > Seriously, the anti-Zimmerman contingent is getting crazier and crazier. > Why do you think so? You know that by Florida law, prosecution is required to disclose all evidence they have to public, except for phone records. And they have. You don’t know any of this. This is pure speculation on your part. Just watch the trial, son. ---
**Author:** ![Saraya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Saraya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saraya)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7691 "2012-11-16T16:07:02Z")
> [@StusBlues](#): > > You don’t know any of this. This is pure speculation on your part. > > Just watch the trial, son. What trial? It would be ludicrous if the judge does anything less than throw it out, and then give the state a serious ass chewing for wasting everyone’s time. Watch Zimmerman walk away with restitution or some form of civil suit awarded to him and his family. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7692 "2012-11-16T16:08:53Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > 1. Even though both of the lawyers (including Bricker) say otherwise? Do they now? Bricker feels that maybe a charge of manslaughter could be made to stick. However at this time Zimmerman is not charged with manslaughter. Bricker agrees with my belief that unless there is something substantial that is not yet in the public record, it is unlikely that the prosecution will get their charge of Murder two to stick. > [@](#): > > 1. Come on…come on. I have traveled around the globe, whether you want to believe me or not. It really isn’t relevant but, I don’t believe you. I imagine you are someone who “thinks” they understand how it is to be looked down upon, marginalized, derided. I think you are a person who sees themself as different. I think you are a person who sees persecution and bigotry everywhere, even when it doesn’t exist. > [@](#): > > Why would there be the need for someone supposedly from the UK to use racial slurs? Or rant and rave about “black crime”? > > But online, all I have to go on is what is written. Statements were made and implications were made that led me to my conclusions. I just have not seen that. Now this thread is over 7000 posts, so it certainly could be that I missed it. So would you please link or at least give me a post number so I can see for myself? > [@](#): > > 1. Please give me a break: I am sorry, ok? Either–only two. Sorry. Deep breath, step back, look again… see the winking smilie? I was just teasing. > [@](#): > > 1. Again, I feel Martin was fighting for his life. I am surprised for such a superhuman MMA fighter, he inflicted so little damage against his killer… Wasn’t he taught how to disable an attacker? Who? What?? 😕 Not sure what you are on about here. If Martin had Zimmerman down and was giving him an MMA style beat down, that would put Zimmerman on the defensive. And back on the right side of the law. Maybe you didn’t catch my drift. I believe the wounds are mostly inconsequential because they are the incidental byproduct of Martin’s struggle to get free of Zimmerman’s grasp. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7693 "2012-11-16T16:14:27Z")
> [@Saraya](#): > > We’d have to look at other cases of successful SYG, in order to determine how much reform, if any is needed. > > The law is inherently good in that it stops those ridiculous scenarios where a criminal can attack someone and get away with it (which often seems to happen in other states where the criminal somehow becomes a victim), and in a weird twist, the victim becomes the criminal. But if not carefully crafted a badly written SYG can allow an actor to interject themselves into a situation they should have stayed out of, sure in the knowledge that if it goes badly they can shoot their way out of it. We don’t need to answer a growing violence problem with vigilantism. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7694 "2012-11-16T16:21:12Z")
> [@Saraya](#): > > Your definition of justice maybe. > Seeking truth and seeking justice are not the same. Based on the evidence that is known and the charge brought, acquittal is almost a assured if it even gets to trial. I meant justice will not be served if Zimmerman is acquitted whether he was at fault or not. At fault and acquitted = obvious justice fail. Not at fault and acquitted = social outcry, possibly a civil trial, long term after affects on Zimmerman. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7695 "2012-11-16T16:23:29Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Actually, it’s from the interview 3 days after. Plenty of time for his pal Osterman to have walked his route and double-checked there were no home cctv cameras in sneaky places. Not to mention Z’s fascination with and attempts to become a police officer likely meant he was familiar with interrogation techniques. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7696 "2012-11-16T16:38:13Z")
> [@Saraya](#): > > What trial? It would be ludicrous if the judge does anything less than throw it out, and then give the state a serious ass chewing for wasting everyone’s time. > > Watch Zimmerman walk away with restitution or some form of civil suit awarded to him and his family. You’re serious? Please, please there needs to be a laughter emoticon here… HAHAHA! Zimmerman, restitution? Only in America can someone kill and profit from it. How disgusting. Truly sickening comment. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7697 "2012-11-16T16:43:30Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > 1. Do they now? > Bricker feels that maybe a charge of manslaughter could be made to stick. However at this time Zimmerman is not charged with manslaughter. Bricker agrees with my belief that unless there is something substantial that is not yet in the public record, it is unlikely that the prosecution will get their charge of Murder two to stick. > 2. It really isn’t relevant but, I don’t believe you. I imagine you are someone who “thinks” they understand how it is to be looked down upon, marginalized, derided. I think you are a person who sees themself as different. I think you are a person who sees persecution and bigotry everywhere, even when it doesn’t exist. > 3. I just have not seen that. Now this thread is over 7000 posts, so it certainly could be that I missed it. So would you please link or at least give me a post number so I can see for myself? > 4. Deep breath, step back, look again… see the winking smilie? I was just teasing. > 5. Who? What?? 😕 > Not sure what you are on about here. If Martin had Zimmerman down and was giving him an MMA style beat down, that would put Zimmerman on the defensive. And back on the right side of the law. > > Maybe you didn’t catch my drift. I believe the wounds are mostly inconsequential because they are the incidental byproduct of Martin’s struggle to get free of Zimmerman’s grasp. 1. Again, sometimes charges are put into place with the idea that they may be downgraded. I wouldn’t be surprised if that happened here. Even **Bricker** confirms this. This is how courts work here. But I also wouldn’t be surprised if they were able to make a good case with the current charges either. 2. Whatever. You don’t have to believe me–I’m “special” :dubious:. Whatever you say. Talk about me missing the context…what was I responding to? Look at what you asked me… 3. I will look back at the last few hundred posts if you want me to–give me some time. 4. ok. 5. ok. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7698 "2012-11-16T16:44:30Z")
> [@StusBlues](#): > > You don’t know any of this. This is pure speculation on your part. > > Just watch the trial, son. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Saraya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Saraya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saraya)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7699 "2012-11-16T17:24:08Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > You’re serious? > > Please, please there needs to be a laughter emoticon here… > > HAHAHA! > > Zimmerman, restitution? Only in America can someone kill and profit from it. How disgusting. > > Truly sickening comment. If there’s not enough of a case to send it to trial, it would be thrown out. And given the way it was handled, it wouldn’t be surprising if the judge has harsh words and some of those involved get reprimanded. As for restitution, yes, have you seen the ludicrous civil suits that America has handled? Go look some up, they’re stupid as hell. > [@Hbns](#): > > Based on the evidence that is known and the charge brought, acquittal is almost a assured if it even gets to trial. I meant justice will not be served if Zimmerman is acquitted whether he was at fault or not. > > At fault and acquitted = obvious justice fail. > Not at fault and acquitted = social outcry, possibly a civil trial, long term after affects on Zimmerman. Still sounds like you’re saying that acquitting him is failure to serve justice. Under Florida law, given the current evidence, anything but acquittal would be an injustice. We need to look at some more SYG specific cases after this is all over and compare notes. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7700 "2012-11-16T17:41:43Z")
> [@Saraya](#): > > If there’s not enough of a case to send it to trial, it would be thrown out. > And given the way it was handled, it wouldn’t be surprising if the judge has harsh words and some of those involved get reprimanded. > > As for restitution, yes, have you seen the ludicrous civil suits that America has handled? Go look some up, they’re stupid as hell. > > Still sounds like you’re saying that acquitting him is failure to serve justice. Under Florida law, given the current evidence, anything but acquittal would be an injustice. > > We need to look at some more SYG specific cases after this is all over and compare notes. My goodness. First off, your first pronouncement was NOT A CONDITIONAL. Stop with “if”…I hate that–common thread among some posters here–always using “if” as a fallback and pretend that it’s fact. You said what WILL happen (thrown out, civil case, etc.), then you say “if”… How do you know that will happen? ---
**Author:** ![Saraya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Saraya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saraya)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7701 "2012-11-16T17:57:04Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > My goodness. > > First off, your first pronouncement was NOT A CONDITIONAL. > > Stop with “if”…I hate that–common thread among some posters here–always using “if” as a fallback and pretend that it’s fact. > > You said what WILL happen (thrown out, civil case, etc.), then you say “if”… > > How do you know that will happen? Ok I’m a people person, I’ll bite : \*\*When there’s not enough of a case to send it to trial, it will be thrown out. And given the way it was handled, it wouldn’t be surprising the judge has harsh words and some of those involved get reprimanded. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7702 "2012-11-16T17:57:21Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > At fault and acquitted = obvious justice fail. > Not at fault and acquitted = social outcry, possibly a civil trial, long term after affects on Zimmerman. If he walks due to SYG, there can be no civil trial. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=384) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=386)