# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 387
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7723 "2012-11-16T19:25:44Z")
> [@Saraya](#): > > Correct, I personally do not see that. Even though under Florida law, the state can ASK the jurors to CONSIDER manslaughter(or third degree murder), it is not a default or automatic. > > Florida law is very specific about affirmative defense. If the state cannot prove Zimmerman’s claim of defense is false, than reduction to manslaughter is still irrelevant. There’s not enough leeway in the state’s prosecution parameters, to take anything we already know about the case, and convince the jury to convict on manslaughter. Absolutely disagree. I think you’re picturing manslaughter by act. But Florida law also allows for manslaughter by culpable negligence. Now, to be crystal clear, I understand you to be saying that, as a matter of law, the evidence adduced so far is legally insufficient to support manslaughter – you are NOT saying that you believe the jury just won’t find the evidence convincing; you’re saying that as a matter of law no reasonable jury could convict on this evidence. Yes? OK, let’s review. In Florida, the key elements of manslaughter are found in § 782.07(1): > [@](#): > > The killing of a human being by the act, procurement, or culpable negligence of another, without lawful justification according to the provisions of chapter 776 and in cases in which such killing shall not be excusable homicide or murder, according to the provisions of this chapter, is manslaughter, a felony of the second degree… To answer the question, “Is the evidence legally sufficient to sustain a conviction?” we must review the evidence in a light most favorable to the prosecution, drawing all reasonable inferences in the prosecution’s favor. Viewed in that light, the evidence shows that Zimmerman proceeded against the advice of the police dispatcher to follow Martin, a person he believed to be an armed criminal, taking his loaded pistol with him, when there was no compelling reason to do so. “Culpable negligence” is defined as follows: > [@Salonko v. State](#): > > Each of us has a duty to act reasonably toward others. If there is a violation of that duty without any conscious intent to harm, that violation is negligence. But culpable negligence is more than a failure to use ordinary care towards others. > In order for negligence to be culpable, it must be gross and flagrant. Culpable negligence is a course of conduct showing reckless disregard of human life, or of the safety of persons exposed to its dangerous effects, or such an entire want of care as to raise a presumption of a conscious indifference to consequences, or which shows wantonness or recklessness or a grossly careless disregard for the safety and welfare of the public, or such an indifference to the rights of others as is equivalent to an intentional violation of such rights. > The negligent act or omission must have been committed with an utter disregard for the safety of others. Culpable negligence is consciously doing an act or following a course of conduct that the defendant must have known or reasonably should have known was likely to cause death or great bodily injury. The jury could reasonably find that Zimmerman knew, or should have known, that carrying a loaded pistol at night, while following someone he believed to be an armed criminal, was likely to result in someone’s death or great bodily injury. The jury could also reasonably find that the death was neither excusable nor justifiable. > [@Rojas v. State](#): > > The killing of a human being is excusable and, therefore, lawful when committed by accident and misfortune in doing any lawful act by lawful means **with usual ordinary caution** , and without any unlawful intent, or by accident or misfortune in the heat of passion upon any sudden and sufficient provocation, or upon a sudden combat without any dangerous weapon being used, and not done in a cruel or unusual manner. (emphasis added). ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7724 "2012-11-16T19:31:21Z")
Thank you, bricker. It’s frustrating, i know. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7725 "2012-11-16T19:32:28Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > And I understand people like making up these bullshit code words and mangling the english language-- it drives me crazy. Again, what is a “race baiter”? > > WTF does that mean? > [@](#): > > race baiter > > One who insinuates that racism or bigotry is a dominant factor with regards to an event that either does not involve race or in which diverse cultures are involved are simply a minor element. [Cite](http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=race%20baiter). Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7726 "2012-11-16T19:34:20Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > [Cite](http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=race%20baiter). > > Regards, > Shodan So, your cite is the “urban dictionary”? LOL. You can do better than that… have to leave–going to exercise. I am going to “race swim”. I guess I am a “race swimmer”. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7727 "2012-11-16T19:51:35Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Thank you, bricker. > It’s frustrating, i know. Truth told, I like the intricate distinctions in criminal law. I once got a guy acquitted from a theft charge because I argued that the Commonwealth proved _taking_ but not _asportation_. Knowing that there’s both manslaughter by act and manslaughter by culpable negligence in Florida is key to this discussion, and if the distinction didn’t exist then I’d be agreeing with **Saraya** on this point. Manslaughter by act allows Zimmerman’s justifiable / excusable defenses wider leeway. Manslaughter by culpable negligence says, in effect, he did something he knew was incredibly dangerous and could result in a death, and it did. What gets frustrating is what sometimes happens: the other participant in the discussion does not acknowledge or rebut your point, but continues to gainsay it. That’s a bit perplexing, when it happens. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7728 "2012-11-16T19:55:30Z")
> [@Saraya](#): > > I am still looking for good sources. I keep running into cases from states that have SYG type law(s), but a lot of them were revolving things like aggravated assault, which in Florida can lead up to a horrendous amount of prison time. I don’t believe SYG actually applies in that instance which seems right and also wrong at the same time. I’ll let you know if I find anything. SYG is pretty new and with trial delays, time until results are compiled/published, maybe there isn’t that much data available yet? ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7729 "2012-11-16T19:58:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Truth told, I like the intricate distinctions in criminal law. I once got a guy acquitted from a theft charge because I argued that the Commonwealth proved _taking_ but not _asportation_. > > Knowing that there’s both manslaughter by act and manslaughter by culpable negligence in Florida is key to this discussion, and if the distinction didn’t exist then I’d be agreeing with **Saraya** on this point. Manslaughter by act allows Zimmerman’s justifiable / excusable defenses wider leeway.\*\* Manslaughter by culpable negligence says, in effect, he did something he knew was incredibly dangerous and could result in a death, and it did.\*\* > > What gets frustrating is what sometimes happens: the other participant in the discussion does not acknowledge or rebut your point, but continues to gainsay it. That’s a bit perplexing, when it happens. You elegantly stated what I guess I have been trying to argue–I didn’t have the expertise to say it as well as you did. I would take it a step further: he did something he knew was incredibly dangerous and **WOULD** result in a death, and it did. But I’ll be happy with manslaughter. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7730 "2012-11-16T20:08:11Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You misunderstood O’Mara. He is, in fact, going to have the SYG hearing in April. Fair enough. Upon conclusion Zimmerman will either be immune from civil and criminal prosecution or he will not. Correct? Not seeing how that makes > [@](#): > > Not at fault and acquitted = social outcry, possibly a civil trial, long term after affects on Zimmerman. an incorrect statement. A) If immune he won’t be acquitted, he won’t even get tried. B) If not immune, tried, and acquitted, a civil suit is a possibility\*. \*that was me being generous to try to avoid running afoul of the SDMB pedants. :rolleyes: In fact, if not immune, tried, and acquitted, a civil suit is almost assured. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7731 "2012-11-16T20:24:58Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > You elegantly stated what I guess I have been trying to argue–I didn’t have the expertise to say it as well as you did. > > I would take it a step further: he did something he knew was incredibly dangerous and **WOULD** result in a death, and it did. > > But I’ll be happy with manslaughter. Well, as I said above, I believe if we had a way to look back over the events and see exactly what happened, and what each participant was thinking, the result would legally amount to manslaughter. But remember that the prosecution has an uphill battle – my recitation of evidence was from the perspective of the jury believing all the prosecution evidence and discounting all the defense evidence. We cannot assume, for certain, that this is what the jury will do. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7732 "2012-11-16T20:27:55Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Here is one of the posts that I took issue with when that black dude (Honesty) revealed his race. One of the posters started going into this [rant](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15408529&postcount=5386)(that some bigoted whites like using) about “black crime”. Look at the end of post and see that it’s a total complete “does not follow”. That constitutes “many” of the posters in this forum defending Zimmerman? Not to make excuses, but emeraldia is a 5 month poster, hasn’t been back to the thread in a month and posted stats about race and crime that could be evidence of racial bias, or could be the result of bad information. I don’t know what he meant by “victimized”. Certainly for stranger murders, black on white is almost 4 times as frequent as white on black according to [DOJ/FBI statistics](http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/tables/ovrelracetab.cfm). ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7733 "2012-11-16T20:37:46Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > These people never fail to disappoint with their irrationality. Who are “these people”? You called out Steophan, Magiver, and Shodan specifically as making racist comments. So far I have seen a link to a comment by emeraldia that may or may not be based in racism. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7734 "2012-11-16T20:58:31Z")
I think at least one of the comments **betenoire39** objects to is the observation about Martin and his “[No Limit N\*gga](http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/No-Limit-Niggas-lyrics-Kane-Able/19D611DD392ABED048256A29002969D7)” web account or Facebook page or whatever it was. Although, to be fair, it is possible that Martin identified more with > [@](#): > > For the love of drugs half of my paper go to bud than > [@](#): > > I stucked a pistol in the club for them wannabe thugs given the levels of THC in Martin’s body. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7735 "2012-11-16T21:16:14Z")
Yep, if Trayvon had been smoking the loco weed and listening to urban music prior to encountering George, it’s hardly surprising that he’d be riled up enough to kill a sucka as soon as look at one. ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7736 "2012-11-16T21:38:25Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > By the way, this is what initially convinced me of Zimmerman’s innocence. This is from the initial interview with the police, immediately after the incident: > > Serino: OK. Gotta ask that. Um, like I said, this child has no criminal record whatsoever, ah, good kid. A mild-mannered kid. Part of what I’ve been doing the last couple days is trying to get into his head, a psychological profile, and find out what his likes are, dislikes are, his hobbies, all the rest of that stuff. And one of his hobbies happens to be the videotaping of everything he does. OK. He has, has a library, very impressive, going through his phone, we got a little bit, but the battery died. We’re still working on that.\*\* There’s a possibility that whatever happened between you and him is caught on videotape. And this is going to be our final interview. I’m not gonna talk to you any more after this. We’re good, you know what I’m saying? That right there, that’s his cell phone.\*\* > > Zimmerman: Yes, sir. > > Serino: OK. That’s a camera. **Um, there’s a very strong possibility that what’s on there is either gonna help you or, you know, not help you**. And that’s why I gotta clarify a few things about what happened out there. Um, how tall are you, how much do you weigh? > > Zimmerman: Ah, 5-8, ah, 194. > > Serino: OK. Trayvon’s about 6 foot, about 150 pounds. (Gets out a photograph)That’s him, that’s the gunshot you put in him, it went right through his heart. OK, um, a skinny kid. Obviously, like I said, a lot of questions are being brought up, um, he was unarmed. Ah, he… But like I said, because of, I mean, obviously you passed a lie detector test and you’ve done all that, but, like I said, **if there’s anything that you haven’t said, that might be in that phone** … > > Zimmerman: **I prayed to God that someone videotaped it** > > Serino: Would be videotaping this. > > Zimmerman: **Or the neighborhood had put up a video camera that I didn’t know about or something.** That’s also the fact Zimmerman didn’t know at that point if someone had witnessed the entirety of the incident. They weren’t in some deserted area. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7737 "2012-11-16T22:08:08Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > That’s also the fact Zimmerman didn’t know at that point if someone had witnessed the entirety of the incident. They weren’t in some deserted area. With regard to actual eye witnesses, you’re right, Z didn’t know if anyone was watching, which was why he stated that he’d been beneath Trayvon AND on top of him - because he couldn’t be sure someone hadn’t been watching and he had to account for why any witness might be saying they’d saw Z on top. He’s probably kicking himself now for even admitting diving straight on Trayvon after he wasn’t sure if he’d shot him or not, as he never needed to even go there. The actual witness who Z seems convinced had a detailed conversation with his good self while he was sat on TM’s back, says no such thing ever happened. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7738 "2012-11-16T22:32:02Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I think at least one of the comments **betenoire39** objects to is the observation about Martin and his “[No Limit N\*gga](http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/No-Limit-Niggas-lyrics-Kane-Able/19D611DD392ABED048256A29002969D7)” web account or Facebook page or whatever it was. > > Although, to be fair, it is possible that Martin identified more with than > given the levels of THC in Martin’s body. > > Regards, > Shodan Case in point, Hbns. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7739 "2012-11-16T22:50:51Z")
The observation that Martin’s web account made reference to a rap song about drugs and criminal behavior is racist? _:shrugs:_ You may want to reread the definition of “race baiter” I supplied above. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7740 "2012-11-16T22:59:34Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The observation that Martin’s web account made reference to a rap song about drugs and criminal behavior is racist? > > _:shrugs:_ > > **You may want to reread the definition of “race baiter” I supplied above.** > > Regards, > Shodan I see no need to read your bullshit definition of some bullshit made up term-- coming, of course, from a legit source or word origins called “urban dictionary”. How laughable. How do you exactly know it referenced a rap song? After all, I can have an online handle of sunshine…does that reference the song by that name? ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7741 "2012-11-16T23:01:12Z")
So then, can I assume you are some type of dangerous computer hacker (who is after intelligence) based on your screenname? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2012, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7742 "2012-11-16T23:21:30Z")
**betenoire** , you know exactly what race baiting is as you engage in it frequently. **Bricker** , regarding the idea that Zimmerman’s following of Martin is sufficiently reckless as to justify a manslaughter conviction, I have three points. Firstly, if Zimmerman was following Martin with the intention to catch and attempt to detain him, I think you’d be right. Secondly, if he was following him with the intention of ensuring that he could tell the police his location, I don’t think that’s reckless. It’s not reasonable to assume that someone will become violent simply because they notice you following from a distance. Thirdly, the evidence strongly suggests that, when the inadvisability of following Martin was brought to his attention, he stopped following. Do you think that, even taking into account that, and the fact that their actual encounter was due to Martin returning to Zimmerman after losing him, it still counts as criminally reckless, rather that just slightly stupid? Also, do you have any cites for courts finding, in a jurisdiction where carrying handguns is fully legal, that an act that would otherwise have been fine becomes criminally reckless due to the carrying of a gun? If not, the continued mention of following Martin _with a loaded gun_ is a red herring, introduced for emotional purposes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=386) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=388)