# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 389
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7763 "2012-11-17T12:05:14Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > There’s no evidence whatsoever that he wanted to get his hands on anyone. None at all. Speculation based on the evidence is fine. Baseless speculation is emphatically not, it’s immoral, unjust, and frankly just fucking disgusting to call someone a murderer simply because you don’t find them trustworthy. He’s a self-confessed do-gooder who likes to get involved, carries a gun ready to roll everywhere, has been known to get physical with people he believed were doing wrong in the past, takes potentially mood-altering medication(or is at least supposed to - do we know if he was keeping up on his med’s?), has been heard to declare his displeasure at “assholes always getting away,” and has numerous holes in his description of the night’s events, so from where I’m sat, the person defending him tooth and nail is the disgusting pos, unless he’s being paid to do it, then he’s a lawyer. > [@Steophan](#): > > I’m sure you meant concerned **Florida** citizens there, otherwise you have just as much interest in questioning them. > > It doesn’t surprise me that you want to ignore the detail of the law, though. Of course I want to ignore the detail of the law - IANOTALawyer and leave the study of such things to those who have to. If there wasn’t a single lawyer in the land who supported my position, I’d be the first to admit it. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7764 "2012-11-17T12:24:14Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I believe that the first of my predicates is provably true, as **Magiver** has also said, and I believe that one would have to prove he _did_ have the intention of catching Martin to get a manslaughter conviction, and that there is no evidence for that. If he had no intention of getting closer to Trayvon he would never have got out of his vehicle. He had no need to keep Trayvon in sight constantly; it’s not like he’d seen him do ANYTHING that the police could have charged Trayvon with, but I’ve no doubt had they got there before the shit hit the fan, Trayvon would have spent a night in the cells, based on Z’s well-founded suspicions. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7765 "2012-11-17T13:03:41Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > If he had no intention of getting closer to Trayvon he would never have got out of his vehicle. Good thing I didn’t say anything about getting closer, then. > [@](#): > > He had no need to keep Trayvon in sight constantly; it’s not like he’d seen him do ANYTHING that the police could have charged Trayvon with, but I’ve no doubt had they got there before the shit hit the fan, Trayvon would have spent a night in the cells, based on Z’s well-founded suspicions. Is trespass not a crime in Florida? Even so, if Martin had gone straight home, nothing at all would have happened. If Zimmerman was reckless, Martin was far more so. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7766 "2012-11-17T13:15:34Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > He’s a self-confessed do-gooder who likes to get involved, carries a gun ready to roll everywhere, has been known to get physical with people he believed were doing wrong in the past, takes potentially mood-altering medication(or is at least supposed to - do we know if he was keeping up on his med’s?), has been heard to declare his displeasure at “assholes always getting away,” and has numerous holes in his description of the night’s events, so from where I’m sat, the person defending him tooth and nail is the disgusting pos, unless he’s being paid to do it, then he’s a lawyer. Firstly, there is nothing wrong with doing good. Using “do-gooder” as an insult is ridiculous. Secondly, there’s nothing wrong with carrying a gun everywhere when it’s legal. This ridiculous strawman should end now. Hell, even **Bricker** admitted he had no cite for an otherwise legal action becoming reckless simply due to carrying a gun. Thirdly, of course there are holes in his description of the night’s events. Why would you expect otherwise? He’s not a recording machine, and, like everyone, his recall - especially of stressful situations - will be flawed. Now if he was lying, that would be a different matter. As there’s no evidence he’s lying, it’s ridiculous to claim he is. Fourthly, your prejudice against the mentally ill is disgusting. Fifthly, as Zimmerman is not provably guilty, _everyone_ should be defending his right not to face persecution for a crime he didn’t commit - indeed, for a “crime” that didn’t happen. He killed in self defence. That is not a crime. This isn’t a case of selective use of the evidence on my part, either. You could disregard every piece of evidence in Zimmerman’s favour, and there’s still no evidence that he murdered anyone. As has been repeatedly explained to you, “those assholes always get away” is not evidence of malice. > [@](#): > > Of course I want to ignore the detail of the law - IANOTALawyer and leave the study of such things to those who have to. If there wasn’t a single lawyer in the land who supported my position, I’d be the first to admit it. Then you have no grounds to comment on whether anyone’s actions are legal or not. If you don’t know the law, you cannot know whether someone obeyed it. I will point out, though, that all the lawyers in this thread think Zimmerman cannot be convicted of murder. Perhaps you should admit that, and recall that “cannot be convicted” equals “not guilty”, and start accepting that Zimmerman is not guilty. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7767 "2012-11-17T13:17:31Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Good thing I didn’t say anything about getting closer, then. > > Is trespass not a crime in Florida? Even so, if Martin had gone straight home, nothing at all would have happened. If Zimmerman was reckless, Martin was far more so. He wasn’t tresspassing and as a US citizen not living under any form of curfew, had every right to dawdle around the neighbourhood as much as he liked, without being obviously spied on by someone reluctant to declare their intentins. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7768 "2012-11-17T13:51:22Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Firstly, there is nothing wrong with doing good. Using “do-gooder” as an insult is ridiculous. So, there’s never been a “do-gooder” anywhere, anytime, that reasonable people haven’t viewed as well-intentioned, but useless? > [@Steophan](#): > > Secondly, there’s nothing wrong with carrying a gun everywhere when it’s legal. This ridiculous strawman should end now. Hell, even **Bricker** admitted he had no cite for an otherwise legal action becoming reckless simply due to carrying a gun. You’re more likely to shoot someone if you are carrying a gun than if you aren’t. That’s not a strawman, it’s a fact of life. > [@Steophan](#): > > Thirdly, of course there are holes in his description of the night’s events. Why would you expect otherwise? He’s not a recording machine, and, like everyone, his recall - especially of stressful situations - will be flawed. Now if he was lying, that would be a different matter. As there’s no evidence he’s lying, it’s ridiculous to claim he is. I don’t expect him to have perfect recall. I do expect a honest description of the events to tally with other evidence, and if there are clear inconsistencies, I expect them to be challenged by those tasked with upholding law and order, and any interested observers. > [@Steophan](#): > > Fourthly, your prejudice against the mentally ill is disgusting. Suggesting the obvious is showing prejudice? Look, if you’re going to characterise me by my opinions on subjects, can you at least try and wait until a pattern has developed? > [@Steophan](#): > > Fifthly, as Zimmerman is not provably guilty, _everyone_ should be defending his right not to face persecution for a crime he didn’t commit - indeed, for a “crime” that didn’t happen. He killed in self defence. That is not a crime. He’d never have even got mainstream attention if SPD had been doing their job from the outset. > [@Steophan](#): > > This isn’t a case of selective use of the evidence on my part, either. You could disregard every piece of evidence in Zimmerman’s favour, and there’s still no evidence that he murdered anyone. As has been repeatedly explained to you, “those assholes always get away” is not evidence of malice. Alas, my sympathies aren’t with the man who may have been overcharged, they are with the family of the dead teen that had the misfortune to cross Z’s path on that night, but I can do my impression of the world’s tiniest violin being played, if that’ll make you happy? > [@Steophan](#): > > Then you have no grounds to comment on whether anyone’s actions are legal or not. If you don’t know the law, you cannot know whether someone obeyed it. I don’t need your permission to post in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7769 "2012-11-17T13:55:23Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > He wasn’t tresspassing and as a US citizen not living under any form of curfew, had every right to dawdle around the neighbourhood as much as he liked, without being obviously spied on by someone reluctant to declare their intentins. There was certainly probable cause to arrest him for trespass, as he was in a private community of which he wasn’t a resident. Of course, if he’d gone straight to the house where he was staying, he could easily have proved he was a guest. That’s not what I was referring to though. Zimmerman saw him on the porch of a house he wasn’t a guest at. Trespass. I believe that’s a misdemeanor in Florida, but I’m open to correction on that point if it turns out to be a felony. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7770 "2012-11-17T13:59:34Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > There was certainly probable cause to arrest him for trespass, as he was in a private community of which he wasn’t a resident. Of course, if he’d gone straight to the house where he was staying, he could easily have proved he was a guest. > > That’s not what I was referring to though. Zimmerman saw him on the porch of a house he wasn’t a guest at. Trespass. I believe that’s a misdemeanor in Florida, but I’m open to correction on that point if it turns out to be a felony. Do you have evidence other than Z’s testimony that such a thing ever happened? Can you even confirm that he parked at the clubhouse when he said he did\*? If you can’t, why are you asserting these things as if they actually happened? - This is something that should be possible to establish and something the defence is keen to produce if they want to enhance Z’s credibility. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7771 "2012-11-17T13:59:51Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > So, there’s never been a “do-gooder” anywhere, anytime, that reasonable people haven’t viewed as well-intentioned, but useless? If he was well-intentioned, he **CANNOT** have been a murderer. > [@](#): > > I don’t expect him to have perfect recall. I do expect a honest description of the events to tally with other evidence, and if there are clear inconsistencies, I expect them to be challenged by those tasked with upholding law and order, and any interested observers. His story does tally with the other evidence. > [@](#): > > Alas, my sympathies aren’t with the man who may have been overcharged, they are with the family of the dead teen that had the misfortune to cross Z’s path on that night, but I can do my impression of the world’s tiniest violin being played, if that’ll make you happy? They are not mutually exclusive. I have a great deal of sympathy for Martin’s family. Not enough, though, that I’m prepared to support the violation of Zimmerman’s rights just to make them feel better. For that matter, even if it’s proved Martin was murdered by Zimmerman, the law does not exist to provide retribution for his acts, or to make the family feel better. It exists to punish any crime _against society_, and to protect society. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7772 "2012-11-17T14:04:35Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Do you have evidence other than Z’s testimony that such a thing ever happened? Are you seriously asking if I have evidence that Martin was ever at the place where he was shot? Yes, I know with absolute certainty that Martin was in a private, gated community, on land that he was not invited to. I don’t know for sure that he was intentionally trespassing, but that’s not necessary for probable cause. > [@](#): > > Can you even confirm that he parked at the clubhouse when he said he did? If you can’t, why are you asserting these things as if they actually happened? What does that have to do with anything? How does where he parked affect his state of mind at the moment he shot Martin? That, let’s not forget, is what the murder charge will hinge on. Not that it’s relevant, but my view is that I have no reason to doubt he parked there. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7773 "2012-11-17T14:26:18Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > If he was well-intentioned, he **CANNOT** have been a murderer. Did I say Z was well-intentioned? I believe his willingness to go chasing/following/heading in the general direction of what he believed could be an armed burglar-type person into a darkened residential area shows extreme recklessness, not a care for the well-being of his neighbourhood. > [@Steophan](#): > > His story does tally with the other evidence. No, actually there’s quite a bit of contradictory evidence. You’ll be hearing it all when it reaches trial. > [@Steophan](#): > > They are not mutually exclusive. I have a great deal of sympathy for Martin’s family. Not enough, though, that I’m prepared to support the violation of Zimmerman’s rights just to make them feel better. For that matter, even if it’s proved Martin was murdered by Zimmerman, the law does not exist to provide retribution for his acts, or to make the family feel better. It exists to punish any crime _against society_, and to protect society. It didn’t protect Trayvon Martin. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7774 "2012-11-17T14:35:53Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Are you seriously asking if I have evidence that Martin was ever at the place where he was shot? Yes, I know with absolute certainty that Martin was in a private, gated community, on land that he was not invited to. > > I don’t know for sure that he was intentionally trespassing, but that’s not necessary for probable cause. > > What does that have to do with anything? How does where he parked affect his state of mind at the moment he shot Martin? That, let’s not forget, is what the murder charge will hinge on. > > Not that it’s relevant, but my view is that I have no reason to doubt he parked there. Do you accept that the moment and place he made his NEN call should have been etched into his mind, barring him receiving some form of brain damage from his brutal beating? Your willingness to ignore the likely veracity of his earlier testimony is not indicative of impartiality, or your belief in the importance of ALL facts, not just the one’s favouring your position. Is there any acceptable explanation for him not being at the clubhouse when he said he was in the nen call, other than him lying about it? If you knew for sure he’d lied about that, would that not alter your opinion of the rest of his testimony in the slightest? If not, it’s fortunate for justice that you wont be chosen for jury duty in this case. ---
**Author:** ![Saraya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Saraya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saraya)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7775 "2012-11-17T14:39:34Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > He’s a self-confessed do-gooder who likes to get involved, carries a gun ready to roll everywhere, has been known to get physical with people he believed were doing wrong in the past, takes potentially mood-altering medication(or is at least supposed to - do we know if he was keeping up on his med’s?), has been heard to declare his displeasure at “assholes always getting away,” Do you realize you’ve just described 95% of bounty hunters? ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7776 "2012-11-17T14:46:16Z")
> [@Saraya](#): > > Do you realize you’ve just described 95% of bounty hunters? If there’d been a bounty on hoody-wearers, I’m sure Z would have been a lot more active in his [del]vigilanteism[/del]neighbourhood window and door watching/hoody-deterring lifestyle choice. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7777 "2012-11-17T15:21:23Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Just to say, **Bricker** , I do understand your points, and I’m inclined to agree that a manslaughter charge would be reasonable. Predicting whether or not he would be guilty is harder, as it’s based much more on opinion - of whether or not a particular act was reckless - than the murder case would be, as that’s shown by the facts not to be valid. Sure – I’m just discussing whether some subset of the evidence we know, _if believed by the finder of fact_, is legally sufficient to support a given charge. What a jury WOULD do, faced with all the evidence, is much more of a guess than a confident conclusion of law. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7778 "2012-11-17T15:33:02Z")
**Bricker** , given that this is a speculation thread, I would be interested in hearing what you think actually happened. Not what the law says the jury can consider happened, nor by the standard of reasonable doubt or probable cause or anything having to do with the law (as valuable and informative as your legal expertise is to the boards). But just what you guess happened. If you are interested. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7779 "2012-11-17T17:14:39Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > 1. If he was well-intentioned, he **CANNOT** have been a murderer. > > 2. His story does tally with the other evidence. > > 3. They are not mutually exclusive. I have a great deal of sympathy for Martin’s family. Not enough, though, that I’m prepared to support the violation of Zimmerman’s rights just to make them feel better. For that matter, even if it’s proved Martin was murdered by Zimmerman, the law does not exist to provide retribution for his acts, or to make the family feel better. It exists to punish any crime _against society_, and to protect society. 1. HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! 2. in your dreams. 3. Sympathy? What kind of sympathy are we talking here? What violation of rights? What rights? Why even write about the law and retribution? Why would you even say something like that? Unreal these people…unreal. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7780 "2012-11-17T17:35:09Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > If I may… > I may well be wrong, about what Bricker’s intent and point are. > But I think Bricker may have answered that question already. > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Bricker View Post > Viewed in that light, the evidence shows that Zimmerman proceeded against the advice of the police dispatcher to follow Martin, a person he believed to be an armed criminal, taking his loaded pistol with him, when there was no compelling reason to do so. > > The jury could reasonably find that Zimmerman knew, or should have known, that carrying a loaded pistol at night, while following someone he believed to be an armed criminal, was likely to result in someone’s death or great bodily injury. > I may well be wrong, about what Bricker’s intent and point are. > But I think Bricker may have answered that question already. And I already stated that the evidence shows Zimmerman complied with the Dispather’s request. There is no evidence that he was following him at that point. As to the point Zimmerman believed Martin was an armed criminal that is difficult to establish. He said Martin had his hands in his waist and had something in his hands. He also described Martin’s demeanor as messed up. There was no indication that Zimmerman understood Martin to be armed. At best the court can establish that Zimmerman saw an object in Martin’s hand which is extremely vague unless Zimmerman makes a post event conjecture as to the nature of the object. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7781 "2012-11-17T17:53:36Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > If there’d been a bounty on hoody-wearers, I’m sure Z would have been a lot more active in his [del]vigilanteism[/del]neighbourhood window and door watching/hoody-deterring lifestyle choice. How would it affect Martin’s drug use, theft, vandalism, street fighting, and assault lifestyle choices? When you talk about choices that night Zimmerman chose to call the police in response to his suspicions of Martin. Martin chose to assault Zimmerman in response to his suspicions of him. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7782 "2012-11-17T17:55:35Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > How would it affect Martin’s drug use, theft, vandalism, street fighting, and assault lifestyle choices? > > When you talk about choices that night Zimmerman chose to call the police in response to his suspicions of Martin. Martin chose to assault Zimmerman in response to his suspicions of him. Martin chose to defend himself against Zimmerman. Zimmerman shot Martin. You can try to taint Martin as much as you want, but people of conscience see right through your bullshit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=388) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=390)