# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 391
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7803 "2012-11-17T20:25:08Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Case in point, Hbns. So you have no evidence then of these posters making racist remarks. There is a word for people who make inflammatory comments and accusations just for kicks. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7804 "2012-11-17T20:48:29Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > There’s no evidence whatsoever that he wanted to get his hands on anyone. None at all. Well except that after having been in a life or death struggle and firing at his assailant to protect his own life, his first thought when he is unsure that he hit his assailant is to run after that assailant and jump on his back. Not seek cover. Not seek assistance at a nearby residence. No he pursues the threat. This is one of the things that leads me to believe Zimmerman’s intent was to detain Martin all along. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7805 "2012-11-17T21:02:39Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > Well except that after having been in a life or death struggle and firing at his assailant to protect his own life, his first thought when he is unsure that he hit his assailant is to run after that assailant and jump on his back. Not seek cover. Not seek assistance at a nearby residence. No he pursues the threat. This is one of the things that leads me to believe Zimmerman’s intent was to detain Martin all along. True, what he should have done is shot him again. Instead, he used less force than would have been sensible to reduce the perceived threat to himself. That’s not an argument _against_ Zimmerman. That he wanted to detain Martin _after_ being brutally attacked by him doesn’t, to my mind, say much about what his intentions were prior to the attack. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7806 "2012-11-17T21:03:36Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > Well except that after having been in a life or death struggle and firing at his assailant to protect his own life, his first thought when he is unsure that he hit his assailant is to run after that assailant and jump on his back. Not seek cover. Not seek assistance at a nearby residence. No he pursues the threat. This is one of the things that leads me to believe Zimmerman’s intent was to detain Martin all along. Exactly. If you are accepting Z’s account as honest, if not entirely accurate, his response after shooting TM is bewildering. Unless you knew for certain your shot had hit it’s intended target(I’m assuming it wasn’t intended as a warning shot, as they are frowned upon in gun carrying circles), why on earth would you want to give up your advantage of distance and a drawn firearm to dive on your attacker unless you was determined he didn’t get away? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7807 "2012-11-17T21:05:33Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Exactly. If you are accepting Z’s account as honest, if not entirely accurate, his response after shooting TM is bewildering. Unless you knew for certain your shot had hit it’s intended target(I’m assuming it wasn’t intended as a warning shot, as they are frowned upon in gun carrying circles), why on earth would you want to give up your advantage of distance and a drawn firearm to dive on your attacker unless you was determined he didn’t get away? Because you’d prefer not to kill if you had any other option. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7808 "2012-11-17T21:09:11Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > True, what he should have done is shot him again. Instead, he used less force than would have been sensible to reduce the perceived threat to himself. That’s not an argument _against_ Zimmerman. His restraint under such traumatic circumstances is almost as impressive as his accuracy. > [@Steophan](#): > > That he wanted to detain Martin _after_ being brutally attacked by him doesn’t, to my mind, say much about what his intentions were prior to the attack. That’s right, it’s just an additional nail in Z’s coffin. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7809 "2012-11-17T21:15:42Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Because you’d prefer not to kill if you had any other option. Z was never a moment away from death, however you try to spin his claimed assault. People on the verge of unconsciousness rarely perform acts of extreme dexterity when their lives depend on it, and I’ve no good reason to believe Z was one of the exceptions, going by his incompetence in every other aspect of his behaviour that evening. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7810 "2012-11-17T21:28:12Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Because you’d prefer not to kill if you had any other option. And what does this even mean? If, as Z said, Trayvon was sprawled face down on the ground, even if he hadn’t been hit, there was no further need for Z to get any more involved. He certainly didn’t need to dive straight back into close proximity with someone who allegedly had been beating the shit out of him only moments before. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7811 "2012-11-17T21:34:18Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Z was never a moment away from death, however you try to spin his claimed assault. No-one’s claimed he was. He didn’t need to be, to be entitled to defend himself. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > And what does this even mean? It means that, rather than take the sensible option of emptying his gun into Martin, he took the less violent option of restraining him, in an attempt to protect himself from attack. As you know, the police were on the scene a few seconds after the shot was fired, and before Martin died, so it’s not at all obvious that Zimmerman could have known there was no longer any threat. That is, he was still in reasonable fear of attack, and still entitled to defend himself. In this case, he chose to do it by restraining Martin. Which is fine, if, as you allude to, not overly sensible or safe. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7812 "2012-11-17T21:38:15Z")
If you want to believe that Z was in as much fear as he claims, but when he finally got his gun trained on his attacker he was controlled enough to just fire one shot and then wait and see, I’m not even going to try and persuade you otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7813 "2012-11-17T22:16:37Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > If you want to believe that Z was in as much fear as he claims, but when he finally got his gun trained on his attacker he was controlled enough to just fire one shot and then wait and see, I’m not even going to try and persuade you otherwise. Interesting. Because that’s exactly what the prosecution will have to do if they want to convict him. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7814 "2012-11-17T22:19:03Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Evidence of injury is not evidence of cause and the source of the recorded screams is disputed territory. yes it is. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7815 "2012-11-17T22:19:57Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Interesting. Because that’s exactly what the prosecution will have to do if they want to convict him. They don’t have to convince you to see him found guilty though. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7816 "2012-11-17T22:21:42Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > yes it is. Shouldn’t you be acknowledging how wrong you were about Z being afraid when Trayvon approached him, before you start making bold assertions? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7817 "2012-11-17T22:24:41Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Z was never a moment away from death, however you try to spin his claimed assault. Zimmerman isn’t claiming he was a moment away from death. He claimed there was a struggle for the gun. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > People on the verge of unconsciousness rarely perform acts of extreme dexterity when their lives depend on it, and I’ve no good reason to believe Z was one of the exceptions, going by his incompetence in every other aspect of his behaviour that evening. There is no dexterity involved in hitting a target that is a foot away. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7818 "2012-11-17T22:31:21Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Zimmerman isn’t claiming he was a moment away from death. He claimed there was a struggle for the gun. He claimed he felt his head was about to explode and that he also felt he was about to be beaten unconscious. He was kinda suggesting that had TM not suddenly changed the focus of his attack, Z would have been at TM’s complete mercy. > [@Magiver](#): > > There is no dexterity involved in hitting a target that is a foot away. Not even when the person you are fighting with is also supposedly trying to get hold of the gun and prior to that moment you hadn’t been able to resist a single second of his attack effectively? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7819 "2012-11-17T22:45:49Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > They don’t have to convince you to see him found guilty though. No, they will have to persuade a jury. All of them, not just a few of them. One would expect the defence to come up with all the objections I’ve come up with, and many more. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7820 "2012-11-17T23:00:51Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, they will have to persuade a jury. All of them, not just a few of them. One would expect the defence to come up with all the objections I’ve come up with, and many more. I’m sure he’s keeping his fingers crossed for getting 6 neighbourhood watch afficionados. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7821 "2012-11-18T01:40:49Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > If you want to believe that Z was in as much fear as he claims, but when he finally got his gun trained on his attacker he was controlled enough to just fire one shot and then wait and see, **I’m not even going to try and persuade you otherwise**. That’s not actually true, is it? You’ve done nothing but try to persuade people that something other than what the evidence and witnesses suggest happened, happened. You’ve been stating your opinions and I suspect you will continue to do so. A police report indicated that the fired weapon had failed to cycle the next round. It would take 2 hands to cycle another round or someone who had practiced charging that weapon with 1 hand. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7822 "2012-11-18T01:42:13Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Shouldn’t you be acknowledging how wrong you were about Z being afraid when Trayvon approached him, before you start making bold assertions? acknowledged. See how easy that is. Now admit your entire litany of evidence free “what ifs” are unfounded. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=390) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=392)