# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 394
**Author:** ![Redbrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Redbrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redbrow)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7863 "2012-11-18T21:55:13Z")
Yet real CSI detectives had access to all of this evidence and still determined there was no probable cause for arrest. > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > The other thing is that there are other videos in evidence that possibly contradict Zimmerman in ways that us little people can’t appreciate because we are not CSI detectives. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7864 "2012-11-18T21:57:51Z")
> [@Redbrow](#): > > Yet real CSI detectives had access to all of this evidence and still determined there was no probable cause for arrest. News flash: He’s been arrested and charged with murder. Coincidentally, this happened after CSI detectives looked at the 711 and clubhouse videos. ---
**Author:** ![Redbrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Redbrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redbrow)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7865 "2012-11-18T22:01:44Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > So explain how Martin magically appeared at the end of Twin Trees Lane only seconds after Zimmerman left the clubhouse? Then explain how the kid had time to double-back and circle Zimmerman 3 times, too. > > Bonus points if you can do it with a straight face. Seconds? Did you have a straight face when you typed that? Try over a minute. Also consider that we do not know how far George had driven from the clubhouse before he finally got through to the dispatcher. 1:15:52 - Mm-hmm [possible door lock switch again]. Something’s wrong with him. Yep, he’s coming to check me out. He’s got something in his hands. I don’t know what his deal is. 1:27:41- Okay. Just let me know if he does anything, okay? [crosstalk: Please just get an officer over here]. 1:29:89 - Yeah, we’ve got him on the way. Just let me know if this guy does anything else. 1:34:25- Okay [turns in seat]. These assholes, they always get away. Yep [power window switch or gear shift and four footsteps/fade]. 1:45:65 - When you come to the clubhouse you come straight in and make a left. Actually you’d – would go past the clubhouse— [he’s trying to explain his location on Twin Trees, southeast of the clubhouse, not at the clubhouse itself]. 1:54:26 - Okay, it’s on the left-hand side from the clubhouse? 1:57:62 - No, you go in straight through the entrance and then you make a left. Uh, yeah, you go straight in, don’t turn and make a left – [2:06:89] sh\*t, he’s running. [in real time this is at 7:11:41 PM]. 2:08:82 - He’s running? Which way is he running? [truck door opens, door open chime/alarm] [http://www.talkleft.com/zimm/alternatetranscript.pdf](http://www.talkleft.com/zimm/alternatetranscript.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7866 "2012-11-18T22:21:05Z")
> [@Redbrow](#): > > Seconds? Did you have a straight face when you typed that? Try over a minute. Also consider that we do not know how far George had driven from the clubhouse before he finally got through to the dispatcher. He said he was parked at the clubhouse when Martin approached him. It’s in the video. You might want to watch it. > [@](#): > > 1:15:52 - Mm-hmm [possible door lock switch again]. Something’s wrong with him. Yep, he’s coming to check me out. He’s got something in his hands. I don’t know what his deal is. > > 1:27:41- Okay. Just let me know if he does anything, okay? [crosstalk: Please just get an officer over here]. > 1:29:89 - Yeah, we’ve got him on the way. Just let me know if this guy does anything else. > 1:34:25- Okay [turns in seat]. These assholes, they always get away. Yep [power window switch or gear shift and four footsteps/fade]. > 1:45:65 - When you come to the clubhouse you come straight in and make a left. Actually you’d – would go past the clubhouse— [he’s trying to explain his location on Twin Trees, southeast of the clubhouse, not at the clubhouse itself]. > 1:54:26 - Okay, it’s on the left-hand side from the clubhouse? > 1:57:62 - No, you go in straight through the entrance and then you make a left. Uh, yeah, you go straight in, don’t turn and make a left – [2:06:89] sh\*t, he’s running. [in real time this is at 7:11:41 PM]. > 2:08:82 - He’s running? Which way is he running? [truck door opens, door open chime/alarm] > [http://www.talkleft.com/zimm/alternatetranscript.pdf](http://www.talkleft.com/zimm/alternatetranscript.pdf) All this dialogue does is confirm is that I’m right. At 1 min 15 sec into the call, Martin is supposedly approaching Zimmerman. Then less than a minute later (at 2:07), he’s supposedly running across the dog path. And that doesn’t strike you as off? Lol. If we take the reenactment as true, Martin walked so fast down Twin Trees Lane that he managed to outpace Zimmerman who at the advantage of driving in a truck. That alone is implausible. But then we have to make time for Martin’s double-back triple-axle around the vehicle too. ---
**Author:** ![Redbrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Redbrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redbrow)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7867 "2012-11-18T22:23:13Z")
My speculation is that George was at the elbow part of twin trees, driving very slowly when the conversation with the dispatcher began, around 50 yards from where he eventually parked near the dog path. And Trayvon was near the ‘mail thing’ when the conversation began. At 1 min 15 sec into the call, Zimmerman is already parked near the dog path. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7868 "2012-11-18T22:39:25Z")
> [@Redbrow](#): > > My speculation is that George was at the elbow part of twin trees, driving very slowly when the conversation with the dispatcher began, around 50 yards from where he eventually parked near the dog path. And Trayvon was near the ‘mail thing’ when the conversation began. > > At 1 min 15 sec into the call, Zimmerman is already parked near the dog path. But that is not what Zimmerman claims is what occurred. It’s a such a major thing to get wrong that it automatically puts into question everything else he claimed, and it also paints him as the aggressor. How much time did Zimmerman spend in pursuit of this kid, if he followed behind Martin in his truck as the kid walked home? This doesn’t fit the narrative of Zimmerman innocently stumbling upon Martin on his way to Target. And the problem with this speculation is that it still requires Martin to outpace Zimmerman in his truck. If Zimmerman was driving slowly while on the phone with NEN, it’s still unlikely he would have been driving so slowly that Martin would have beat him to the dog path. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7869 "2012-11-18T22:50:02Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I don’t understand why the court has allowed the defense to pursue Martin’s alleged hobby of street fighting. Prior bad acts are in admissible against the accused in order to prove he acted in conformity therewith. Not inadmissible as to the victim. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7870 "2012-11-18T22:52:46Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > If we take the reenactment as true, Martin walked so fast down Twin Trees Lane that he managed to outpace Zimmerman who at the advantage of driving in a truck. That alone is implausible. But then we have to make time for Martin’s double-back triple-axle around the vehicle too. according to Martin Zimmerman followed him in the car. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7871 "2012-11-18T22:59:54Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > according to Martin Zimmerman followed him in the car. Are you getting messages from beyond the grave again, or are you choosing to believe bits of DD’s testimony that fit your narrative? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7872 "2012-11-18T23:01:13Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > I was addressing **Steophan** specifically, not anybody who’s reading. > > That’s true, and some people I might tire of trying to convince. You could be one of them. > Is this weapon known for being so unreliable? Are there any associated problems with this gun that might require any part of it to be given a knock or 2, say for the magazine or clip, w/e, to sit properly? You’re posting on a public forum. It would be a reasonable assumption that anyone viewing the discussion could and would participate. Why would I tire of watching you spin your wheels trying to introduce evidence that doesn’t exist. If things were different, things would have been different. Each semi-automatic design has it’s own problems. The Kel-Tec PF-9 is no exception. If TM had his hand(s) on the slide or if GZ didn’t have a solid grip on the grip, the round in the chamber could still have been fired but the slide might not have properly cycled all the way back and all the way forward. A 2nd round might not feed or fire if it did feed. In this particular case, IIRC, a 2nd round did not enter the barrel. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7873 "2012-11-18T23:09:54Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Are you getting messages from beyond the grave again, or are you choosing to believe bits of DD’s testimony that fit your narrative? Her testimony consists of repeating what Martin said and interpretations of sounds. The only thing I challenged was her statement that she heard Martin say “get off, get off” a little bit. This statement was repeated for clarity. She should have heard Martin say this clearly but she didn’t. If anything those words would be spoken in distress and at a higher volume. Therefore, she heard someone away from the microphone. In this instance she repeats what Martin told her. It’s not up for interpretation. There is no grey area to the meaning of what was said. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7874 "2012-11-18T23:11:26Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > …All this dialogue does is confirm is that I’m right. At 1 min 15 sec into the call, Martin is supposedly approaching Zimmerman. Then less than a minute later (at 2:07), he’s supposedly running across the dog path. And that doesn’t strike you as off? Lol. Why would that “strike you as off”? According to the testimony, TM had started towards GZ. Later - TM took off in another direction. Do you believe that TM was somehow required to reach GZ’s position BEFORE he could change his mind or direction??? ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7875 "2012-11-18T23:20:14Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > You’re posting on a public forum. It would be a reasonable assumption that anyone viewing the discussion could and would participate. > > Why would I tire of watching you spin your wheels trying to introduce evidence that doesn’t exist. If things were different, things would have been different. If I thought someone’s wheels were spinning and they were going nowhere, I’d lose interest in watching them very swiftly. Each to his own, I suppose. > [@doorhinge](#): > > Each semi-automatic design has it’s own problems. The Kel-Tec PF-9 is no exception. If TM had his hand(s) on the slide or if GZ didn’t have a solid grip on the grip, the round in the chamber could still have been fired but the slide might not have properly cycled all the way back and all the way forward. A 2nd round might not feed or fire if it did feed. In this particular case, IIRC, a 2nd round did not enter the barrel. Would a gun enthusiast be able to determine if Z was handling his gun at any point in his nen call, or would the sounds not be distinctive enough to say with absolute certainty? ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7876 "2012-11-18T23:22:00Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Her testimony consists of repeating what Martin said and interpretations of sounds. The only thing I challenged was her statement that she heard Martin say “get off, get off” a little bit. This statement was repeated for clarity. She should have heard Martin say this clearly but she didn’t. If anything those words would be spoken in distress and at a higher volume. Therefore, she heard someone away from the microphone. > > In this instance she repeats what Martin told her. It’s not up for interpretation. There is no grey area to the meaning of what was said. I never said there was. Why would I disagree that Zimmerman was following Martin? I just wanted to be sure on the source of your opinions. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7877 "2012-11-18T23:46:44Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > according to Martin Zimmerman followed him in the car. Yes, and how frightening that must have been for the kid to see an SUV with tinted windows creeping at a snail’s pace right behind him, for reasons unbeknownst to him even in death. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7878 "2012-11-18T23:46:48Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Would a gun enthusiast be able to determine if Z was handling his gun at any point in his nen call, or would the sounds not be distinctive enough to say with absolute certainty? Yes, a gun enthusiast would be able to determine certain things. What do you think Zimmerman was doing with his gun and why do you think he didn’t shoot Martin if he was holding it when struck. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7879 "2012-11-18T23:54:50Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Yes, a gun enthusiast would be able to determine certain things. What do you think Zimmerman was doing with his gun and why do you think he didn’t shoot Martin if he was holding it when struck. You’re willing to believe that Trayvon could dominate Z totally right up to the moment he allegedly went for Z’s gun(which Trayvon was somehow able to notice despite being pretty focused on beating the shit out of Z… allegedly), but you don’t think that Trayvon could have controlled Z’s gun hand for the same amount of time, if Z had drawn his gun while grabbing hold of TM? Any particular reason why you can accept he controlled Z’s entire body, but couldn’t possibly have controlled one arm until Z finally got a shot off? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2012, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7880 "2012-11-18T23:59:00Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > You’re willing to believe that Trayvon could dominate Z totally right up to the moment he allegedly went for Z’s gun. Yes, otherwise Martin would show signs of a fight. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Any particular reason why you can accept he controlled Z’s entire body, but couldn’t possibly have controlled one arm until Z finally got a shot off? because the evidence shows Zimmerman shot Martin. so you couldn’t think of what Zimmerman might be doing with his gun? Your imagination run out of steam? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7881 "2012-11-19T00:04:20Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Why would that “strike you as off”? > > According to the testimony, TM had started towards GZ. Because the distance between where Zimmerman was when Martin supposedly passed by him at the clubhouse and the dog path would have taken someone much longer to traverse on foot than Zimmerman portrayed during the reeactment. Watch the video and its glaringly obvious. Zimmerman acted as though as soon as he left the clubhouse and turned down TTL, Martin was already at the dog path. If he’d actuallly started that call at the clubhouse and Martin passed by him as he indicated in the reenactment, then for the two to even be near each other, Zimmerman would have had to have creeped behind the kid at a snail’s pace for quite a while. Not mere seconds. I don’t think this is what happened, though. The NEN certainly doesn’t bear this out, and also I don’t think the patience necessary to do this kind of stalking is consistent with Zimmerman’s behavior to date. I think something else went on. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7882 "2012-11-19T00:10:14Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Yes, otherwise Martin would show signs of a fight. Unlikely if Z is holding tightly to Trayvon’s hoody with one hand, while his other is holding his gun and Trayvon is struggling to hold onto his wrist or sleeve. > [@Magiver](#): > > because the evidence shows Zimmerman shot Martin. And this you believe happened after Z turned from The Incredibly Incompetent Man into Jason Bourne, in the blink of an eye? > [@Magiver](#): > > so you couldn’t think of what Zimmerman might be doing with his gun? Your imagination run out of steam? I’m still trying to imagine how he pulled out a gun placed to be drawn with his favoured left hand using his right hand, and juggled it into a suitable position to fire, all while Trayvon was also trying to get his hands on it, when for the previous minute at least he was unable to do anything to resist Trayvon’s alleged ferocious attack. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=393) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=395)