# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 400
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7983 "2012-11-20T19:23:52Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > What the hell is your point? How is that relevant to the point I just made? > > Unless you’re implying that the jury will be instructed to do something differently in their deliberations…If not, utter bullshit you’re saying. Yes, of course that was my point… ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7984 "2012-11-20T19:31:32Z")
Ok Steophan, let’s try this again. Here was the quote from ywtf: “Doesn’t matter. You have evidence that the shooter got of their truck and unnecessarily placed themselves near a pedestrian for no apparent reason. And not only that, this is evidence that the shooter went out of his way to engage the person he ended up shooting, after a period of pursuit admitted to by the shooter.” To which I responded “Beautifully and succinctly stated.” You then said “And utterly irrelevant to the question of whether Zimmerman was defending himself.” To which I said that essentially it is relevant… If the jury decided that it wasn’t self defense because the shit was essentially caused by Dooley about a fucking skateboard, then why wouldn’t a jury look at Zimmerman’s actions leading up to the shooting? This is where YOU have to provide an explanation for why the jury in this case can’t consider these other factors, when the Dooley jury did. Don’t give me some bull, tell me EXACTLY WHY. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7985 "2012-11-20T19:35:17Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > What you said is bullshit. > > You have a small group of sociopaths who want to exert their control over other people…when those people resist, you have shit like this happening. So you want to call Martin and James idiots because they didn’t kowtow to the demands of those psychos? Dooley was attacked as he was _walking away_. He was making no demands, he was attacked from beind. Zimmerman was attacked despite stopping following Martin, and going away from where he could reasonably expect him to be. The psychos are those who deliberately attack someone trying to get away from them, not people like Zimmerman or Dooley, who have to shoot younger, stronger attackers. > [@](#): > > They were shot because they challenged those people. No. They were shot because they _attacked_ those people. > [@](#): > > Martin challenged Zimmerman and hence was killed. James challenged Dooley and hence was killed. No, again _attacked._ Martin was shot because he attacked Zimmerman, and continued beating him. James was shot because he tried to pull a gun on Dooley as Dooley walked away. > [@](#): > > If you want to call these people “idiots”, then so be it. Thanks. > [@](#): > > James was killed in front of his daughter. The lesson to learn from this is, don’t attack people you know are armed when your children are present. Sucks for her, but punishing an innocent man isn’t going to remove any of her pain or make her life any easier. > [@](#): > > I think your statements are horrible. > > How dare you? The world is a horrible place. People are horrible. Sometimes, people have to do horrible things to survive, like shooting people who attack them. Sometimes people need to look past the horror of an action, and rationally decide whether it was justified, and see who was the actual wrongdoer. You are clearly incapable of that, you are a moral coward who wants to take the easy way out, regardless of right or wrong. I dare because if I, or others, don’t, people like you will win the day and, in the name of “niceness”, or not being “horrible”, terrible injustices will happen. If I’m “horrible” for standing up for people’s right to defend themselves when attacked, then fine. I’d rather be that than “nice” like you. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7986 "2012-11-20T19:41:29Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Ok Steophan, let’s try this again. > > Here was the quote from ywtf: > > “Doesn’t matter. You have evidence that the shooter got of their truck and unnecessarily placed themselves near a pedestrian for no apparent reason. And not only that, this is evidence that the shooter went out of his way to engage the person he ended up shooting, after a period of pursuit admitted to by the shooter.” > > To which I responded “Beautifully and succinctly stated.” > > You then said “And utterly irrelevant to the question of whether Zimmerman was defending himself.” > > To which I said that essentially it is relevant… > > If the jury decided that it wasn’t self defense because the shit was essentially caused by Dooley about a fucking skateboard, then why wouldn’t a jury look at Zimmerman’s actions leading up to the shooting? > > This is where YOU have to provide an explanation for why the jury in this case can’t consider these other factors, when the Dooley jury did. > > Don’t give me some bull, tell me EXACTLY WHY. Because Zimmerman isn’t charged with manslaughter, he’s charged with murder. The state have to prove malice, of which there is no evidence. They also have to prove Zimmerman wasn’t in fear of death or serious injury, which they can’t. As Zimmerman had no other means of escape than shooting Martin, it doesn’t matter if he started it. I can only assume the jury concluded that Dooley started the fight, and that he had another means of escape. Basically, the only way Zimmerman can be convicted is if the state can prove, beyond reasonable doubt, that he wasn’t in reasonable fear of death or serious injury. They can’t. I’d hope Dooley’s conviction gets reversed on appeal, but I doubt he’s getting all the support Zimmerman is. Hopefully, all the people crying about racism in this thread will donate to him. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7987 "2012-11-20T19:43:23Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > 1. **Zimmerman was attacked despite stopping following Martin, and going away from where he could reasonably expect him to be.** > > 2. The psychos are those who deliberately attack someone trying to get away from them, not people like Zimmerman or Dooley, who have to shoot younger, stronger attackers. > > 3. Sometimes people need to look past the horror of an action, and rationally decide whether it was justified, and see who was the actual wrongdoer. You are clearly incapable of that, you are a moral coward who wants to take the easy way out, regardless of right or wrong. 1. Keep on repeating that bullshit. 2. No, exactly like Zimmerman. 3. You have some nerve. Yes, I have stepped back and took a long look at the Zimmerman case. Yes, I see that the “actual wrongdoer” is Zimmerman, all the way. I see that he was unjustified in his actions. I am capable of seeing these things. Moral cowardice would be allowing someone to get away with this. You are an immoral piece of garbage for that. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7988 "2012-11-20T19:44:53Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I’d hope Dooley’s conviction gets reversed on appeal, but I doubt he’s getting all the support Zimmerman is. **Hopefully, all the people crying about racism in this thread will donate to him**. So calling people out for bigoted opinions would cause them to support Dooley? WTF??? ---
**Author:** ![Saraya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Saraya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saraya)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7989 "2012-11-20T19:55:46Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > And utterly relevant to the question of whether or not his ass will be sent to prison. > > Again, if you think a jury won’t be looking at this, you’re insane. > > The Dooley case is instructive for another reason: the jury talked about the man dying “over nothing”…so yes, they looked at why Dooley put himself in that position. > > The same way Zimmerman’s actions and contributions to the killing will be looked at. See now you can identify the parallels to the Dooley case or rather the lack of. Dooley was convicted of manslaughter, not murder. Yet they had two similar witness reports of people who were actually there, in day light without any obstruction to their view(S). Zimmerman’s case has no real time witnesses, in day light, who can say anything against Zimmerman’s claims. And there’s not enough material evidence to completely refute his claims either. Dooley’s case should be appealed. The fact that James grabbed for his gun, with children around is absurd - what on earth was he thinking. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7990 "2012-11-20T19:59:41Z")
> [@Saraya](#): > > See now you can identify the parallels to the Dooley case or rather the lack of. > Dooley was convicted of manslaughter, not murder. Yet they had two similar witness reports of people who were actually there, in day light without any obstruction to their view(S). > > Zimmerman’s case has no real time witnesses, in day light, who can say anything against Zimmerman’s claims. And there’s not enough material evidence to completely refute his claims either. Saraya, I am not talking about that…I am talking about the JURY AND WHAT THEY SAID AND DID. **THE JURY.** My question was what makes you think a possible Zimmerman jury WILL NOT consider the actions Zimmerman took to create the situation? What makes you think that jury won’t say that Martin died over nothing (like James)? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7991 "2012-11-20T20:00:35Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > 1. Keep on repeating that bullshit. I will, until someone shows it’s actually bullshit, rather than the most reasonable interpretation of the evidence. > [@](#): > > 1. No, exactly like Zimmerman. So, you think people should suffer beatings from younger, stronger people without defending themselves. Figures, really. I hope it never happens to someone you care about. > [@](#): > > 1. You have some nerve. Indeed, I have the nerve to say what’s right and wrong when weak minded people won’t do so, or won’t even see it. > [@](#): > > Yes, I have stepped back and took a long look at the Zimmerman case. Yes, I see that the “actual wrongdoer” is Zimmerman, all the way. I see that he was unjustified in his actions. > I am capable of seeing these things. The only way you can see these things is if you imagined them. There is nothing wrong with following someone, approaching them, talking to them, or following them for a bit, then stopping. There is nothing wrong with carrying a gun, where it’s legal. Most importantly, there is nothing wrong with shooting someone in self defence. > [@](#): > > Moral cowardice would be allowing someone to get away with this. Zimmerman has done nothing to “get away” with, according to all the evidence. You are the one who wishes to ignore the evidence because you don’t like what it shows. If you had moral fibre, you’d accept that the evidence shows Zimmerman is not guilty, and deal with it. > [@](#): > > You are an immoral piece of garbage for that. Nope, not true. What Zimmerman did was _legal_, therefore it is _morally wrong_ for the state to punish him for it. But please explain something to me. What part of your moral philosophy makes it right to expect someone to have the crap beaten out of them for no reason, when they are able to stop it? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7992 "2012-11-20T20:02:28Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > What makes you think that jury won’t say that Martin died over nothing (like James)? One broken nose, two black eyes, and several cuts and bruises on both the front and back of Zimmerman’s head. It’s utterly absurd that you continue to pretend they weren’t there. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7993 "2012-11-20T20:07:10Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > One broken nose, two black eyes, and several cuts and bruises on both the front and back of Zimmerman’s head. It’s utterly absurd that you continue to pretend they weren’t there. I am not pretending anything. Those marks indicate to me that Martin was fighting for his life. ---
**Author:** ![Saraya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Saraya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saraya)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7994 "2012-11-20T20:08:48Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Saraya, > > I am not talking about that…I am talking about the JURY AND WHAT THEY SAID AND DID. > > **THE JURY.** > > My question was what makes you think a possible Zimmerman jury WILL NOT consider the actions Zimmerman took to create the situation? What makes you think that jury won’t say that Martin died over nothing (like James)? Because it would not only be unlawful but also immoral for them to pass judgment on something they can only speculate about. That’s assuming the judge even allowed it. Martin did die over nothing, in that him attacking Zimmerman is unprovoked - as per current evidence which cannot determine why. It doesn’t prove Zimmerman’s guilt. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7995 "2012-11-20T20:09:16Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > We’re ~160 pages into thread and IIRC no one has provided a reputable cite to support the claim that height imparts a net fight advantage when weight is held constant. Perhaps I’d be inclined to treat this notion seriously if cites were forthcoming, but right now I can ony laugh at this notion. MMA fighters, wrestlers, and boxers aren’t sorted into classes by height. Only by weight. Kinda sorta then figures that height don’t mean crap when you have a differential of almost 50 lbs to contend with. In the whole of professional mixed martial arts, there are really only Jon Bones Jones and Stefan Struve who have effective height and reach advantage over their smaller opponents, and that’s because they work so hard at all the other aspects of the fighting game. When it comes to far less experienced fighters, a significant weight advantage will beat a slight height and reach advantage every time, especially if the heavier person isn’t just heavier because they are obese. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7996 "2012-11-20T20:17:25Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > One broken nose, two black eyes, The black eyes are a result of the broken nose, but nice try at making it out as if they might have occurred from 3 seperate blows. > [@Steophan](#): > > and several cuts and bruises on both the front and back of Zimmerman’s head. It’s utterly absurd that you continue to pretend they weren’t there. Superficial injuries that are more likely the result of scraping than slamming. You’re aware of how prone the head is to getting lumps, aren’t you? Can you point to one photograph of Z’s injuries that clearly shows any kind of swelling around the areas of the main scratches? ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7997 "2012-11-20T20:17:32Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > \*Most importantly, there is nothing wrong with shooting someone in self defence. > \* > _If you had moral fibre, you’d accept that the evidence shows Zimmerman is not guilty, and deal with it._ > \*What Zimmerman did was legal, therefore it is morally wrong for the state to punish him for it. \* > > But please explain something to me. What part of your moral philosophy makes it right to expect someone to have the crap beaten out of them for no reason, when they are able to stop it? The only one engaged in self-defense was Martin. Unfortunately, he wasn’t armed. If you had “moral fibre”. you’d accept the evidence shows Zimmerman is guilty and deal with it. What Zimmerman DID WAS NOT LEGAL, therefore it is morally wrong for the state NOT to punish him for it. What part of YOUR moral philosophy makes it right to expect someone not to defend themselves against some gun-toting psycho who was following you? What part of your moral philosophy makes it right to expect that this person should not be punished for his deeds? ---
**Author:** ![Saraya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Saraya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saraya)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7998 "2012-11-20T20:17:47Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > In the whole of professional mixed martial arts, there are really only Jon Bones Jones and Stefan Struve who have effective height and reach advantage over their smaller opponents, and that’s because they work so hard at all the other aspects of the fighting game. > > When it comes to far less experienced fighters, a significant weight advantage will beat a slight height and reach advantage every time, especially if the heavier person isn’t just heavier because they are obese. And what, Pablo Garza is the only exception? Versus someone like him, you better be really strong and laying on top of him, otherwise he’ll just out fight you. Why are we talking about professional fighters again? ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/7999 "2012-11-20T20:29:23Z")
> [@Saraya](#): > > And what, Pablo Garza is the only exception? > Versus someone like him, you better be really strong and laying on top of him, otherwise he’ll just out fight you. > > Why are we talking about professional fighters again? Pablo Garza is in a similar vein to the 2 I mentioned, so no, he isn’t exceptional, but he’s a good call for the point I’m making that most fighters of a particular weight are of similar build and the only long, rangy ones that are effective tend to be very good in every area. If the Jackass team were to get 50 bums weighing 190lbs and standing 5ft 9, and another 50 weighing 160 and who stood 5ft11, and matched them up one at a time against each other, which group do you believe would have the most winners? I’d be prepared to bet that even if the tall group were given a free punch on the small group’s noses, there’d still be more heavier guys winning. ---
**Author:** ![Redbrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Redbrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redbrow)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8000 "2012-11-20T20:48:37Z")
[QUOTE=you with the face;15718171 Doesn’t matter. You have evidence that the shooter got of their truck and unnecessarily placed themselves near a pedestrian for no apparent reason. And not only that, this is evidence that the shooter went out of his way to engage the person he ended up shooting, after a period of pursuit admitted to by the shooter.[/QUOTE] Who is this ‘you’ that has this alleged evidence? Whoever they are, they should alert the prosecution immediately, because they don’t have such evidence. Out of the truck unnecessarily? Nope. He felt it was his duty to report the suspects actions and movements as requested by the dispatcher multiple times. Following the suspects movements required exiting his vehicle, because the suspect fled to an area not accessible by car. 1:27:41- Okay. J **ust let me know if he does anything, okay?** [crosstalk: Please just get an officer over here]. 1:29:89 - Yeah, we’ve got him on the way. **Just let me know if this guy does anything else.** 2:14:33 - Okay and **which entrance is that he’s heading towards**? Then the dispatcher let George know that he did not need to put himself in harm’s way. To which George obediently replied ‘ok’ and stopped heading in the general direction of where he thought he may be able to regain visual contact of the fleeing suspect. The suspect fled south and George headed east to find the nearest address to where he currently was, where he last had visual contact with the suspect, to tell the officers he expected at any second. The prosecution’s lead investigator admitted, while on the stand, that there was no evidence that Zimmerman followed Martin after being informed it was no longer necessary to do so. There is no evidence Zimmerman pursued Martin. However, there is evidence that Martin went out of his way to to engage the person he ended up assaulting. DeeDee clearly states Trayvon was near Green’s unit and obviously went back to the T to pursue, confront and assault Zimmerman. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8001 "2012-11-20T20:50:09Z")
> [@Redbrow](#): > > **DeeDee clearly states Trayvon was near Green’s unit and obviously went back to the T to pursue, confront and assault Zimmerman.** WTF??? ---
**Author:** ![Redbrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Redbrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redbrow)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8002 "2012-11-20T21:04:53Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > WTF??? Isn’t that what Trayvon reportedly spray painted on school property before getting busted with a baggie of marijuana and a pipe? Anyway… BDLR: So Trayvon said he started walking because he thought he had lost the guy. Dee Dee: Yeah. BDLR: OK. Dee Dee: I say, ‘Keep runnin’.’ BDLR: OK. Dee Dee: **He say he ain’t goin’ run, cause he say he right by his father house…** So exactly how did Martin get from being right near his ‘father’s house’ all the way back to the “T” some 70 yards away, in the opposite direction, where the assault occurred? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=399) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=401)