# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 401
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8003 "2012-11-20T21:16:03Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > What part of YOUR moral philosophy makes it right to expect someone not to defend themselves against some gun-toting psycho who was following you? The part where carrying a gun and following someone is neither immoral, illegal, threatening, or psychotic. The part where one has no right to attack someone for doing so. > [@](#): > > What part of your moral philosophy makes it right to expect that this person should not be punished for his deeds? The part where it’s wrong to punish someone who’s done nothing illegal. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8004 "2012-11-20T21:18:32Z")
> [@Redbrow](#): > > Out of the truck unnecessarily? Nope. He felt it was his duty to report the suspects actions and movements as requested by the dispatcher multiple times. Following the suspects movements required exiting his vehicle, because the suspect fled to an area not accessible by car. Why? He had only his vague suspicions that TM had done anything worthy of further attention. What Z should have done is continue to fucking Target and mind his own business for a change, and TM would have got home incident free. > [@Redbrow](#): > > 1:27:41- Okay. J **ust let me know if he does anything, okay?** [crosstalk: Please just get an officer over here]. > 1:29:89 - Yeah, we’ve got him on the way. **Just let me know if this guy does anything else.** > 2:14:33 - Okay and **which entrance is that he’s heading towards**? Don’t forget the next bit:- Z: “to the back entrance…” So, he had a good idea which direction his Target was heading, had no real important need to know _exactly_ where he was, but instead of continuing to stalk TM in his vehicle, he just has to get out of it to provide an unnecessary address. > [@Redbrow](#): > > Then the dispatcher let George know that he did not need to put himself in harm’s way. To which George obediently replied ‘ok’ and stopped heading in the general direction of where he thought he may be able to regain visual contact of the fleeing suspect. The suspect fled south and George headed east to find the nearest address to where he currently was, where he last had visual contact with the suspect, to tell the officers he expected at any second. The prosecution’s lead investigator admitted, while on the stand, that there was no evidence that Zimmerman followed Martin after being informed it was no longer necessary to do so. There is no evidence Zimmerman pursued Martin. See above. > [@Redbrow](#): > > However, there is evidence that Martin went out of his way to to engage the person he ended up assaulting. No, there isn’t. He was heading home from the shops. Z put himself within Trayvon’s world, not the other way round. > [@Redbrow](#): > > DeeDee clearly states Trayvon was near Green’s unit and obviously went back to the T to pursue, confront and assault Zimmerman. Only if you want to interpret “by his house” literally. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8005 "2012-11-20T21:20:18Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Only if you want to interpret “by his house” literally. “ **right** by his house”. Kinda hard to interpret this as being far away from the house. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8006 "2012-11-20T21:20:20Z")
> [@Redbrow](#): > > Out of the truck unnecessarily? Nope. He felt it was his duty to report the suspects actions and movements as requested by the dispatcher multiple times. But it wasn’t his duty to follow anyone. It wasn’t his duty to pursue the kid in his truck and then on foot. > [@](#): > > Following the suspects movements required exiting his vehicle, because the suspect fled to an area not accessible by car. Too bad, too sad. It wasn’t his job to follow “the suspect”, and by actively going out of his way to do so, he likely provoked a situation in which Martin–not him–had reasonable fear of serious harm. It doesn’t even matter if he had officially stopped his pursuit seconds before running into Martin, either. All that would have been apparent to Martin was that the guy who’d previously been skulking behind him in his truck, had now abandoned his truck to go skulking after him on foot. Since by his own admission, Zimmerman didn’t explain his conduct to the kid (didn’t even say he was looking for a street sign), Martin would have had good reason to think he was in danger from this man. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8007 "2012-11-20T21:20:33Z")
> [@Redbrow](#): > > So exactly how did Martin get from being right near his ‘father’s house’ all the way back to the “T” some 70 yards away, in the opposite direction, where the assault occurred? Exactly how far was it from right near his fathers house to the T? That would help if you could tell me that. Imho, near could have meant anywhere in the subdivision. But, you have a more precisely defined sense of what near means, yes? So let’s start with how far away from green’s place he was when DD heard that from M. Then I can start formulating hypotheses in my ass about how M got from point w/e to point w/e. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8008 "2012-11-20T21:21:52Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > “ **right** by his house”. Kinda hard to interpret this as being far away from the house. Was the T by Green’s house? Was the 7-11 near greens house? Is Green’s yard by her house? What are the limits of near and far so that we can use them to ascertain the distances and correspond these distances to times? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8009 "2012-11-20T21:22:54Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > But it wasn’t his duty to follow anyone. It wasn’t his duty to pursue the kid in his truck and then on foot. and feelings don’t negate recklessness, imho. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8010 "2012-11-20T21:23:43Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > Was the T by Green’s house? Was the 7-11 near greens house? Is Green’s yard by her house? > > What are the limits of near and far so that we can use them to ascertain the distances and correspond these distances to times? I wouldn’t say I was “right by the house” while walking if I was more than 20-30 ft away from it. If driving, it would be different. Here’s a [map](http://www.wagist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/map_600.jpg) if you don’t have one. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8011 "2012-11-20T21:24:55Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > …[Z] just has to get out of it to provide an unnecessary address. Actually, Z got out to look for a street sign there in the middle of the block. The address thing came to him later after he failed to find a street sign where there was no intersection. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8012 "2012-11-20T21:27:28Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I wouldn’t say I was “right by the house” while walking if I was more than 20-30 ft away from it. If driving, it would be different. I’d say it differently. I think what we need to do is put it to a vote of SDMB members then we can know exactly what _M_ meant. We must nail down “near” to a number or else the silly line of argument flops like a fish. ---
**Author:** ![Redbrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Redbrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redbrow)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8013 "2012-11-20T21:27:47Z")
There was a well documented crime spree in the area. City officials, including the mayor and chief of police, specifically requested that citizens get involved and report any suspicious activity in their neighborhood. Trayvon was spotted on private property, at an address where an attempted burglary recently occurred. Martin fit the description of the burglary suspect. > [@](#): > > “Let’s talk about the elephant in the room. I’m black, OK?” the woman said, declining to be identified because she anticipated backlash due to her race. She leaned in to look a reporter directly in the eyes. “There were black boys robbing houses in this neighborhood,” she said. “That’s why George was suspicious of Trayvon Martin.” Read more: [New Info Emerges On George Zimmerman (DETAILS)](http://globalgrind.com/news/george-zimmerman-childhood-photos-new-information#ixzz2CngqFYCh) ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8014 "2012-11-20T21:28:07Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > I’d say it differently. Of course you would. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8015 "2012-11-20T21:33:31Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > “ **right** by his house”. Kinda hard to interpret this as being far away from the house. Compared to where he was when he’d first started chatting with her, it was right by his dad’s. Just think about it rationally for a moment - is it really conceivable that after him reaching his dad’s front or back door, he would then carry his shopping bag and products back up to where he intended to have a violent confrontation with someone? Or that he wouldn’t nip indoors and get a better weapon than a soft drink can? Come on, if you’re going to label him a violent thug, don’t insult his intelligence and level of violence potential completely. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8016 "2012-11-20T21:34:27Z")
> [@Redbrow](#): > > There was a well documented crime spree in the area. City officials, including the mayor and chief of police, specifically requested that citizens get involved and report any suspicious activity in their neighborhood. > > Trayvon was spotted on private property, at an address where an attempted burglary recently occurred. Martin fit the description of the burglary suspect. And? None of this means it was okay for Zimmerman to go against Neighhood Watch protocol and pursue this kid with a loaded gun. ---
**Author:** ![Redbrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Redbrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redbrow)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8017 "2012-11-20T21:36:13Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > But it wasn’t his duty to follow anyone. It wasn’t his duty to pursue the kid in his truck and then on foot. > > Too bad, too sad. It wasn’t his job to follow “the suspect”, and by actively going out of his way to do so, he likely provoked a situation in which Martin–not him–had reasonable fear of serious harm. > > It doesn’t even matter if he had officially stopped his pursuit seconds before running into Martin, either. All that would have been apparent to Martin was that the guy who’d previously been skulking behind him in his truck, had now abandoned his truck to go skulking after him on foot. Since by his own admission, Zimmerman didn’t explain his conduct to the kid (didn’t even say he was looking for a street sign), Martin would have had good reason to think he was in danger from this man. How did exiting his vehicle ‘provoke a situation?’ According to DeeDee, Trayvon was not even aware that Zimmerman had left his vehicle. BDLR: On the phone. Did Trayvon ever expand on that? Did he ever say something else about that , now he’s out like that…like, uh…whether the guy had gotten out of the car? Did he ever describe, “Yeah, the guy, now he’s out of the car, he’s chasing me.” I know you said the guy, he said the guy was following him. But did he ever say the guy got out of the car? Dee Dee: You want that too? [Obviously surprised tone] BDLR: I want to know the truth whether…did he say that or not? If he didn’t say that, that’s fine. I mean, I don’t, I don’t need to know…. Dee Dee: Like, when he like walking. BDLR: I know Trayvon is running, right? Or walking… Dee Dee: Yeah. BDLR: My question is, did Trayvon ever describe to you, ‘Hey, you know like how if I see a football game, I say yeah, the guy is running fast…or you know, the guy ran to the left…did he ever… Dee Dee: When he was at the…um…the mail thing BDLR: Yeah. Dee Dee: The man was on the phone. BDLR: Alright. Dee Dee: That’s what he was telling me. BDLR: I’m sorry…what, what? Dee Dee: He was telling me the man was on the phone. He put his hoodie on. BDLR: Right. Dee Dee: So, the man was still in the car, then Trayvon started walking, and then he said…I think the man got off by some reason…cause he said… BDLR: That’s what you believe? Dee Dee: Yeah…cause he said the man was still following him. BDLR: OK, so he didn’t say like the man got out… Dee Dee: Yeah. BDLR: You just believe that… Dee Dee: Yeah. BDLR: …but Trayvon didn’t tell you the man got out… Dee Dee: Yeah. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8018 "2012-11-20T21:36:32Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > “ **right** by his house”. Kinda hard to interpret this as being far away from the house. If I’ve just travelled a 1,000 miles, 1 mile away from home is “right by.” ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8019 "2012-11-20T21:37:37Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Just think about it rationally for a moment - is it really conceivable that after him reaching his dad’s front or back door, he would then carry his shopping bag and products back up to where he intended to have a violent confrontation with someone? Sure. Quite a bit more rational than the contention that Zimmerman stalked and killed him. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8020 "2012-11-20T21:38:34Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Come on, if you’re going to label him a violent thug, don’t insult his intelligence and level of violence potential completely. Along the same lines, Martin’s cousin didn’t live that far. If he really wanted to fight Zimmerman, why would he be chatting with his gf until end? He should have been callng his cousin and telling him to come down with all of this friends. ---
**Author:** ![Redbrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Redbrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redbrow)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8021 "2012-11-20T21:41:08Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > And? None of this means it was okay for Zimmerman to go against Neighhood Watch protocol and pursue this kid with a loaded gun. SPD neighborhood watch has no such protocol. There is no official weapons policy according to Wendy Dorival (Volunteer Program Coordinator – Sanford Police Department). During her FDLE interview she does not cite any specific policy, rules or regulations regarding Neighborhood Watch participants carrying weapons. There is no mention of carrying weapons in any of the NHW literature. She stated nobody asked about weapons during the TTL meeting but the question comes up at other NHW and she has a standard answer. “My advice to them was, you have every right to have any weapon you want, that’s your constitutional right, but just remember that same weapon can be used against you and you don’t know what consequences that weapon will bring to you…that’s my standard answer” Of course, GZ was not on NHW duty at the time so it does not really apply to this case but I have seen it repeated over and over that it is forbidden to carry weapons as an official policy of NHW. This is apparently not the case, for Sanford at least. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8022 "2012-11-20T21:41:51Z")
> [@Redbrow](#): > > How did exiting his vehicle ‘provoke a situation?’ According to DeeDee, Trayvon was not even aware that Zimmerman had left his vehicle. Here’s a question, since you’re treating DeeDee’s account like one of the Gospels. DeeDee claims she heard Martin say “Get off! Get off!” seconds before the phone went dead. You should consider this evidence that Zimmerman did something untowards to Martin. I suspect, though, that you don’t. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=400) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=402)