# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 404
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8063 "2012-11-20T23:22:56Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > This is the other problem that I have with Zimmerman’s story. > > \*\*I can’t understand how Zimmerman would have lost sight of him behind the houses. Why would the kid be invisible back there? \*\*The headlights from Zimmerman’s truck supposedly were on while Z was on the phone, so there should have been enough illumination for him to see by. > > If Martin didn’t know Zimmerman would be crazy enough to exit his truck to chase on foot, then why would he had made the split decision to hide himself? If Martin _did_ know Zimmerman was following him, what would possess him to stop running and then patiently wait (in the rain) for Zimmerman to get off the phone? If Martin ran home, what would be the point of him coming back and confronting Zimmerman empty-handed. (And, like you pointed out, how would he have timed his trip back to the T so that it neatly coincided with the Zimmerman’s phone call.) > > All of this is why I’m seriously questioning idea that this was actually Martin that Zimmerman was chasing. I think he was reacting to something (his imagination most likely) when he got out of his vehicle, but I don’t think Martin was anywhere near that area. It’s my personal belief that Martin was hiding…that’s why. I think Zimmerman initially didn’t see Martin, but later did–while Martin was hiding. I think that’s why Zimmerman told the operator not to meet him at the clubhouse–he knew he would be moving to where Martin was. I think when Zimmerman got close, Martin decided “screw this, I am going to defend myself”. That’s what I think happened. Do I think Zimmerman was lying when he said he “lost sight of Martin”? No–I think he briefly did, but later found him. Again, I am speculating here and I am admitting that, but that’s what I think happened. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8064 "2012-11-20T23:26:05Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > But I guess it’s also possible (and quite likely) that Zimmerman tried to head Martin off at the pass by running down RVC and trying to catch him coming at the south end of TTL. > > **Problem with this (to my eye) is that it still requires Martin to have hung out in the dog path area even after watching Zimmerman dash across the T in fast pursuit. Wouldn’t he have seen this and been worried that he’d eventually be found by this crazy guy?** That’s actually what I think happened. Martin didn’t stray far from that area. That makes the most sense rather than that bullshit “doubling-back” story that would require super athletic abilities (and all the black male stereotypes you can think of). Zimmerman found him and that’s when the party began. ---
**Author:** ![Redbrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Redbrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redbrow)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8065 "2012-11-20T23:28:58Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > yup. > > In their minds, there’s nothing wrong with that. > > There was nothing wrong with Zimmerman’s use of race to profile Martin, but there is something wrong with people bringing up that he did. Stop with the racial profiling accusations already. There is no evidence of racial profiling. Not even the prosecution is alleging racial profiling. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8066 "2012-11-20T23:31:01Z")
> [@Redbrow](#): > > Stop with the racial profiling accusations already. There is no evidence of racial profiling. Not even the prosecution is alleging racial profiling. Care to respond to the argument? ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8067 "2012-11-20T23:31:30Z")
What we’ve got to remember is, if the phone records are accurate, there was only 2 minutes between the end of Z’s call and the gunshot, so if the fight went on for only a minute, that means that TM was still only hid in the shadows for a minute and that time would have flew by under the circumstances Trayvon was going through. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8068 "2012-11-20T23:38:02Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > What we’ve got to remember is, if the phone records are accurate, there was only 2 minutes between the end of Z’s call and the gunshot, so if the fight went on for only a minute, that means that TM was still only hid in the shadows for a minute and that time would have flew by under the circumstances Trayvon was going through. I know dimmy…but the chorus raising the question of how Martin got to where he was is of value, I will admit. But I don’t think he got there by being faster than Usain Bolt. The more logical thing to say is that maybe Martin really didn’t leave that general vicinity. That makes the most sense to me. He was probably hiding. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8069 "2012-11-20T23:45:42Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > What we’ve got to remember is, if the phone records are accurate, there was only 2 minutes between the end of Z’s call and the gunshot, so if the fight went on for only a minute, that means that TM was still only hid in the shadows for a minute and that time would have flew by under the circumstances Trayvon was going through. I don’t think that’s true. Two minutes are unaccounted for between when Zimmy got off the phone NEN and the estimated start time for the fight. The latter estimate is based on when Deedee got disconnected and when the first 911 call was made. So from the time Z got off the phone to the gunshot, at least 4 minutes would have passed, IIRC. The 2-min block of time is something that Zimmerman defenders gloss over, because they know it reflects badly on Zimmerman’s credibility and innocence. Why did it take one minute, let along two minutes, for Zimmerman to return to his truck? Gee, I dunno. Maybe it’s cause he didn’t head to his truck. ---
**Author:** ![Saraya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Saraya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saraya)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2012, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8070 "2012-11-20T23:47:54Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > I know dimmy…but the chorus raising the question of how Martin got to where he was is of value, I will admit. > > But I don’t think he got there by being faster than Usain Bolt. > > The more logical thing to say is that maybe Martin really didn’t leave that general vicinity. > > That makes the most sense to me. > > He was probably hiding. So he was closer rather than further away from Zimmerman when Zimmerman lost sight of him? ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8071 "2012-11-21T00:02:03Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I don’t think that’s true. From one of **Redbrow’s** earlier posts. I’ve not checked the discovery docs to confirm it, I’ll admit. > [@](#): > > Page 40/183pdf (Zimmerman Discovery) > > Event Report #2012571656 > 7:11:12 Start George Call > 7:15:23 End George Call > Event Report #2012571669 > 7:16:43 Connection Time W11 > 7:17:20 Gunshot > Event Report #2012571671 Z says “he ran” 2 minutes before the end of the call, so, although that gives us around 4 minutes until TM would be dead, if TM didn’t know where Z was going to turn up next and was hid in the shadows listening and looking for any further sign of Z, that time too would have gone by very quickly for Trayvon. It seems far more reasonable that he spent that time not far from where he ran and that Z came upon him, than that he ran all the way home then wandered back to the top and found Z where he says he was. ps. Come to think of it, those times must be off, because the nen call was 4 minutes long, not 2 minutes. Hmmm? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8072 "2012-11-21T00:05:56Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > That’s just my humble opinion and speculation, mind, and I can’t prove it in front of a group of Z’s peers. Cool. Then Zimmerman is acquitted and walks free. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8073 "2012-11-21T00:09:46Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Cool. Then Zimmerman is acquitted and walks free. You made Bernie de la Rionda cry. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8074 "2012-11-21T00:34:35Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > It seems far more reasonable that he spent that time not far from where he ran and that Z came upon him, than that he ran all the way home then wandered back to the top and found Z where he says he was. Exactly…those are my thoughts. He ran and hid all the while Zimmerman was still looking for him–he never stopped looking for him. He possibly could have heard Martin talking on the phone to DeeDee and/or possibly seen the light from Martin’s cellphone–if there was one. Another possibility is that he was hiding from Zimmerman, thought the coast was clear, emerged only to find Zimmerman there waiting for him–like a “gotcha”. Yet another possibility was that maybe Zimmerman was telling the PARTIAL truth that he lost Martin and was going back to his truck, but at the same time Martin thought the coast was clear-- and they bumped into each other, just by chance. But any way you slice the pie, Martin felt he had to defend himself–and I don’t blame him. Martin was probably scared shitless. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8075 "2012-11-21T01:08:33Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > ps. Come to think of it, those times must be off, because the nen call was 4 minutes long, not 2 minutes. Hmmm? A while ago in this thread, there was a lot of discussion about the times logged in by dispatch. It was determined you can’t use those times because they represent when the dispatcher recorded the events in the system, not necessarily when the events themselves occurred. I’m pretty sure it’s well-founded that there was a gap of unaccounted for time before the fight started, and it was plenty of time for Zimmerman to make it to his truck. I cited the evidence in this thread, but I don’t feel like pouring through the pages to find the post. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8076 "2012-11-21T01:24:59Z")
About the gap, I did some googling and came across [this](http://viewfromll2.com/2012/04/05/minute-by-minute-timeline-of-trayvon-martins-death/comment-page-3/) description of events. It seems pretty fair and objective and presumably is based on stuff in the discovery dump (although I have not verified that). ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8077 "2012-11-21T02:09:57Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > And there can be probable cause of unjustified use of force even if the shooter’s nose was broken. OMG, look at that! > > All probable cause requires is having sufficient reason to believe a crime was committed. You lectured to me lengthly about that eons ago. If a cop can’t draw the conclusion that a crime might have occurred because little about the victim suggests he/she posed a serious threat to a known shooter, then that would make our society too stupid to exist and it’s time to nuke us into orbit. > > It means people would be able to claim self-defense after killing 20-lbs toddlers. It means 300-lbs men would routinely go unarrested after shooting 100-lb women in retaliation slaps on the arm. All too often your arguments, when taken to their logical conclusion, lead us to absurdity. But that’s just it: a threshold finder of fact doesn’t have to succumb to this reduction ad absurdum exercise you’ve created. Whether probable cause exists for any given set of facts is a matter of law. The standard is not applied by stating a workable general concept and then drawing it out to absurd lengths. Your method of analysis seems to be deciding something is untrue because you don’t like the result otherwise. If this were true, society would be too stupid to exist, you decide, and so therefore it can’t be true. But you have no experience, training, or understanding of the concept, and yet this lack doesn’t bother you. Why is that? I mean – you must grasp at some level that lawyers spend three years in law school and at least some time in practice before they can confidently assess issues like these. But you are supremely confident that you can do it with some Internet study. Why? > [@](#): > > Question: Does this change your analysis of probable cause? (I won’t be surprised if you say no). If witnesses did indeed report hearing a despondent boy, that would create probable cause. But I find it very very difficult to believe that three witnesses all chose to describe the cries they heard as “despondent.” ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8078 "2012-11-21T02:28:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But that’s just it: a threshold finder of fact doesn’t have to succumb to this reduction ad absurdum exercise you’ve created. They don’t have to succumb to anything. Cops can arrest anyone if they have reason to believe they’ve perpetrated a crime. Skip the hot air and answer me this: if the cops had arrested Zimmerman that night, based on the information they had at the time, would they have acted inappropriately? Do you really think they’d have little justification for taking that action? > [@](#): > > If witnesses did indeed report hearing a despondent boy, that would create probable cause. > > But I find it very very difficult to believe that three witnesses all chose to describe the cries they heard as “despondent.” At least one reported hearing a child or boy cry out. Her roommate corroborated her claims. “Despondent boy” was what was simply used in the report. Sorry if this is all news to you, but maybe you need to do some more homework before you come to the defense of these cops. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8079 "2012-11-21T02:51:27Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > 1. Keep on repeating that bullshit. > > 2. No, exactly like Zimmerman. > > 3. You have some nerve. > > Yes, I have stepped back and took a long look at the Zimmerman case. Yes, I see that the “actual wrongdoer” is Zimmerman, all the way. I see that he was unjustified in his actions. > I am capable of seeing these things. > > Moral cowardice would be allowing someone to get away with this. > > You are an immoral piece of garbage for that. You have already been both noted _and_ warned about calling names in this forum, both times from myself. So consider this a second warning. You only get a limited number of warnings, just so you’re aware…so you need to knock off right now or your posting privileges may come under review by the mods. Do not call names in this forum. Make a topic in the BBQ Pit if you want to call out another member on their posts. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8080 "2012-11-21T03:21:11Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Did I miss something? > > Who the hell walks at 5mph??? > > Oh wait–Zimmerman said he “skipped away”. > > He must have been “skipping” at 5mph. Martin told Dee Dee that he ran because it was raining. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8081 "2012-11-21T03:48:18Z")
> [@Idle\_Thoughts](#): > > You have already been both noted _and_ warned about calling names in this forum, both times from myself. So consider this a second warning. > You only get a limited number of warnings, just so you’re aware…so you need to knock off right now or your posting privileges may come under review by the mods. > Do not call names in this forum. Make a topic in the BBQ Pit if you want to call out another member on their posts. I am sorry, but if you do that, you’re gonna have to give this man a warning too–I was responding to him calling me this. Again, I understand, but he can’t be allowed to do this. I don’t think calling someone\*\* a moral coward \*\*because I don’t think Zimmerman should not be charged is appropriate. This man is dead wrong. > [@Steophan](#): > > Dooley was attacked as he was _walking away_. He was making no demands, he was attacked from beind. > > Zimmerman was attacked despite stopping following Martin, and going away from where he could reasonably expect him to be. > > The psychos are those who deliberately attack someone trying to get away from them, not people like Zimmerman or Dooley, who have to shoot younger, stronger attackers. > > No. They were shot because they _attacked_ those people. > > No, again _attacked._ Martin was shot because he attacked Zimmerman, and continued beating him. James was shot because he tried to pull a gun on Dooley as Dooley walked away. > > Thanks. > > The lesson to learn from this is, don’t attack people you know are armed when your children are present. Sucks for her, but punishing an innocent man isn’t going to remove any of her pain or make her life any easier. > > The world is a horrible place. People are horrible. Sometimes, people have to do horrible things to survive, like shooting people who attack them. > > Sometimes people need to look past the horror of an action, and rationally decide whether it was justified, and see who was the actual wrongdoer.\*\* You are clearly incapable of that, you are a moral coward who wants to take the easy way out, regardless of right or wrong. \*\* > > I dare because if I, or others, don’t, people like you will win the day and, in the name of “niceness”, or not being “horrible”, terrible injustices will happen. > > If I’m “horrible” for standing up for people’s right to defend themselves when attacked, then fine. I’d rather be that than “nice” like you. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8082 "2012-11-21T03:51:52Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > I am sorry, but if you do that, you’re gonna have to give this man a warning too–I was responding to him calling me this. But mommy, he did it first! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=403) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=405)