# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 405
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8083 "2012-11-21T04:03:58Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Why would they be noticeably moving? Because the fight noticeably moved. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8084 "2012-11-21T04:10:58Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Martin told Dee Dee that he ran because it was raining. Have a good night\*\* magiver.\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8085 "2012-11-21T04:24:26Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Have a good night\*\* magiver.\*\* It’s always a good night when you’re right. GIRLFRIEND: Yeah, he ran to the, um, mail thing. PROSECUTOR: I’m sorry what? GIRLFRIEND: Like a mail, like a shed. PROSECUTOR: Like a mail area, like a covered area, because it was raining? So did he tell you he was already inside, like, the gated place? GIRLFRIEND: Yeah. He ran. That’s when the phone hung up. GIRLFRIEND: A couple minutes later, like, he come and tell me this man is watching him. GIRLFRIEND: He gonna start walking. And then the phone hung up and then I called him back again. And then, I said, ‘What are you doing?’ He said he’s walking, and he said this man is still following him, behind the car. He put his hoodie on. So by all means, keep whining about how it’s not possible that Martin ran past Zimmerman who then followed in his car because IT HAPPENED. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8086 "2012-11-21T05:12:17Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > I am sorry, but if you do that, you’re gonna have to give this man a warning too–I was responding to him calling me this. I suspect your warning was for calling me a piece of garbage, not a moral coward. One of those things is not like the other. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8087 "2012-11-21T05:39:58Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Sometimes people need to look past the horror of an action, and rationally decide whether it was justified, and see who was the actual wrongdoer. You are clearly incapable of that, you are a moral coward who wants to take the easy way out, regardless of right or wrong. Don’t call others names in this forum, that goes for this too. This topic really seems like it’s getting heated, so take it to the Pit if you want to take the gloves off. Don’t do it here. Keep it civil. ---
**Author:** ![Redbrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Redbrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redbrow)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8088 "2012-11-21T07:32:14Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > I am really getting confused… > > what does this have with the previous argument that as being made? > > The poster made reference to a “crime wave” which gives Zimmerman justification for the actions he took. I am questioning him on this. That’s why I said: “There is also a “crime wave” of hispanic men mugging people. Should I profile a random hispanic man and kill him?” > > This is to point out that the reasons Zimmerman gave for doing what he did WAS WRONG. > > The same way if Hispanic men were mugging people, it would wrong for me to pick out some random Hispanic guy, follow him and kill him. > > THAT’S THE POINT. The problem is, George did not shoot Martin because of his race, age, clothing, skittles or suspicion of wrong-doing and being high. George shot Martin because he was assaulted, had reasonable fear of serious injury or death and was unable to get away. ---
**Author:** ![Redbrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Redbrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redbrow)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8089 "2012-11-21T07:38:49Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > The text you quote does not support this assertion, btw. fyi. > > I am aware of many things which I ave not told you. So the fact that M didn’t say that the guy got out of hid vehicle is not at all the same as saying that M was unaware that Z had exited his vehicle. > > At least imho anyway. You may take a different view of the relationship between awareness and talking. idk Technically you are correct. However, it seems very unlikely that Trayvon was relaying such a detailed play-by-play to DeeDee(even reporting when he put his hood up), but failed to mention an important detail like seeing that “creepy, crazy, old white man” jump out his truck. ---
**Author:** ![Saraya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Saraya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saraya)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8090 "2012-11-21T08:56:49Z")
> [@Idle\_Thoughts](#): > > You have already been both noted _and_ warned about calling names in this forum, both times from myself. So consider this a second warning. > You only get a limited number of warnings, just so you’re aware…so you need to knock off right now or your posting privileges may come under review by the mods. > Do not call names in this forum. Make a topic in the BBQ Pit if you want to call out another member on their posts. This would be the third time, not second. If Martin was hiding then how come his conversation to Deedee never involves phrases like ‘I’m hiding’ ‘He might be close’ ‘I’m near my house but going to wait for this guy to pass’ Doesn’t he in fact say the opposite and she has to tell him to NOT go BACK? ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8091 "2012-11-21T10:05:30Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It’s always a good night when you’re right. > > GIRLFRIEND: Yeah, he ran to the, um, mail thing. > > PROSECUTOR: I’m sorry what? > > GIRLFRIEND: Like a mail, like a shed. > > PROSECUTOR: Like a mail area, like a covered area, because it was raining? So did he tell you he was already inside, like, the gated place? > > GIRLFRIEND: Yeah. He ran. That’s when the phone hung up. > > GIRLFRIEND: A couple minutes later, like, he come and tell me this man is watching him. > > GIRLFRIEND: He gonna start walking. And then the phone hung up and then I called him back again. And then, I said, ‘What are you doing?’ He said he’s walking, and he said this man is still following him, behind the car. He put his hoodie on. > > So by all means, keep whining about how it’s not possible that Martin ran past Zimmerman who then followed in his car because IT HAPPENED. What are you on about? If he was running before he got to the mail boxes, surely Z would have mentioned it in his nen call, don’t ya think? The only running Z mentions TM doing is a fair distance away from the mail area, over near the T. What it sounds like DD is describing is TM running into the gated area in the direction of the mail box, possibly because there was an increase in the rain and Trayvon wanted to wait it out a few minutes or so. He has reached the mail area and is taking shelter when he finally notices Z. So, in this scenario, he hasn’t been followed from Frank Taafe’s at all, which adds further pause for thought as to the truthfulness of Z’s statements. ---
**Author:** ![Redbrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Redbrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redbrow)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8092 "2012-11-21T10:59:58Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > What are you on about? If he was running before he got to the mail boxes, surely Z would have mentioned it in his nen call, don’t ya think? > > The only running Z mentions TM doing is a fair distance away from the mail area, over near the T. > > What it sounds like DD is describing is TM running into the gated area in the direction of the mail box, possibly because there was an increase in the rain and Trayvon wanted to wait it out a few minutes or so. He has reached the mail area and is taking shelter when he finally notices Z. > > So, in this scenario, he hasn’t been followed from Frank Taafe’s at all, which adds further pause for thought as to the truthfulness of Z’s statements. George lost sight of Trayvon when he was parked at the clubhouse, waiting to get through to the NEN dispatcher. George did not see him run to the mail thing but DeeDee fills in that blank. DeeDee did not mention Trayvon being near the gated area during her interview with Assistant Special Prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda. The half hour or so between leaving 7-11 and arriving at the ‘mail thing’ is a mysterious blank that de la Rionda showed no interest in inquiring about. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8093 "2012-11-21T11:35:04Z")
> [@Redbrow](#): > > George lost sight of Trayvon when he was parked at the clubhouse, waiting to get through to the NEN dispatcher. George did not see him run to the mail thing but DeeDee fills in that blank. Seriously, so what? If you believe all what Z says, he also “lost sight” of TM after he spotted him stood in front of his friend’s house “looking suspicious.” So what does Z do? He leaves this suspicious person stood outside his friend’s while he drives ahead to the clubhouse. WTF? I thought he was supposed to be keeping an eye on this guy? Trayvon, had he really wanted to avoid Z and had he been up to anything criminally-inclined, would have just cut straight across by the lake and come out on the other side almost at his dad’s. But Trayvon is supposed to have continued following the path of Z’s car and then gone and sheltered by the mail boxes or whatever? Bollocks. Z was already through to the dispatcher when he was at the clubhouse(IF he was ever there) - he says in his reenactment that he called the nen immediately after driving past Trayvon. Like DD’s statement seems to confirm, I don’t think Z ever spotted Trayvon by Frank Taafe’s and he just used that location to get in how important it was to catch this suspicious person in his mind. > [@Redbrow](#): > > DeeDee did not mention Trayvon being near the gated area during her interview with Assistant Special Prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda. The half hour or so between leaving 7-11 and arriving at the ‘mail thing’ is a mysterious blank that de la Rionda showed no interest in inquiring about. I don’t give a fuck if Trayvon was out blowing midgets to earn money for crack, it has fuck all to do with why Z targeted him this night. He had no GOOD reason to believe Trayvon was doing anything to warrant such close attention, and it appears he might even have lied to justify WHY he was following him in the first place. It’s my firm belief that if the mail boxes had been robbed recently, or a break-in on the clubhouse had been attempted, he would have used one of these locations as the first point he spotted Trayvon “acting suspicious.” ---
**Author:** ![Saraya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Saraya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saraya)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8094 "2012-11-21T11:49:52Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > I don’t give a fuck if Trayvon was out blowing midgets to earn money for crack, it has fuck all to do with why Z targeted him this night. He had no GOOD reason to believe Trayvon was doing anything to warrant such close attention, and it appears he might even have lied to justify WHY he was following him in the first place. So then we’re all in agreement now that previous activities, actions and personality traits of these two are irrelevant? And it’s fairly clear that Zimmerman based his suspicions on past activities of the ‘crime wave?’ ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8095 "2012-11-21T12:34:07Z")
> [@Saraya](#): > > So then we’re all in agreement now that previous activities, actions and personality traits of these two are irrelevant? No, we are not. I’m saying that unless there is good reason to suspect that he was up to anything that was of any interest to Z, _then_ this particular segment of time should not be used to create imaginary crime scenarios that Trayvon might have been involved in. All the evidence does suggest is that he was in no real hurry to get back to his babysitting duties, unless you are positing that it’s common for young street thugs to be chatting to their gf’s almost continuously while they are out on a lone prowl? > [@Saraya](#): > > And it’s fairly clear that Zimmerman based his suspicions on past activities of the ‘crime wave?’ Yes, he conveniently remembered all the crime but completely forgot that they always got away because they ran before he had a chance to get near them. And out of all these real criminals he came across and gave a real reason for wanting to fuck Z’s shit up, it took until this 17yr old stranger to the area came along for anyone to “man up” to Z. Yeah, highly likely. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8096 "2012-11-21T12:50:06Z")
> [@Redbrow](#): > > However, it seems very unlikely that Trayvon was relaying such a detailed play-by-play to DeeDee(even reporting when he put his hood up), but failed to mention an important detail like seeing that “creepy, crazy, old white man” jump out his truck. It sounds very likely that he might imply various details rather than give a play-by-play. If he said that he lost Z and then says Z appears, it would be sufficient implication in every day speech afaict. IME, when we have conversations, we don’t back away from referring to contextual clues we assume are shared rather than specifically detail everything. Imho anyway. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8097 "2012-11-21T13:49:37Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > A while ago in this thread, there was a lot of discussion about the times logged in by dispatch. It was determined you can’t use those times because they represent when the dispatcher recorded the events in the system, not necessarily when the events themselves occurred. > > I’m pretty sure it’s well-founded that there was a gap of unaccounted for time before the fight started, and it was plenty of time for Zimmerman to make it to his truck. I cited the evidence in this thread, but I don’t feel like pouring through the pages to find the post. Sorry. There are a lot of things that are unknown or unclear about this incident. The timelog from the dispatch is not one of those things. GZ called the non-emergency dispatch at 19:09:34. We know because that’s what time his [call connected](http://i.imgur.com/G9zy5.jpg), and it’s recorded automatically. The call was a little over four minutes long, so the call ends around 19:13:34. The first of the various 911 calls from neighbors in the area that heard the fight start from 19:16:11, which means the struggle probably started around 19:15:30 or so, give or take. So there’s an almost two-minute gap in between the end of GZ’s phone call, when he hung up with dispatch telling them to ‘have the police call me when the arrive’ (not ‘meet me at my truck’) and when the fight started. GZ says he spent the better part two minutes walking like or so wandering around looking for a non-existent street sign. The only confusion was because one of the detectives filled out some paperwork mistakenly using the time the log was _created_, not when the call connected. This incorrect timeline was used in one of the local newspapers…but you’d have to be seriously obtuse to not see that timeline could -not- have started when the report was created (although I haven’t seen an admission of error from one of the posters in this thread…) ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8098 "2012-11-21T14:35:57Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It’s always a good night when you’re right. > > GIRLFRIEND: Yeah, he ran to the, um, mail thing. > > PROSECUTOR: I’m sorry what? > > GIRLFRIEND: Like a mail, like a shed. > > PROSECUTOR: Like a mail area, like a covered area, because it was raining? So did he tell you he was already inside, like, the gated place? > > GIRLFRIEND: Yeah. He ran. That’s when the phone hung up. > > GIRLFRIEND: A couple minutes later, like, he come and tell me this man is watching him. > > GIRLFRIEND: He gonna start walking. And then the phone hung up and then I called him back again. And then, I said, ‘What are you doing?’ He said he’s walking, and he said this man is still following him, behind the car. He put his hoodie on. > > So by all means, keep whining about how it’s not possible that Martin ran past Zimmerman who then followed in his car because IT HAPPENED. DeeDee’s timeline makes no sense, considering that the 7-11 is only half a mile away. There’s nothing in her statement that Martin stopped somewhere in his return to the development, and if he ran it would have taken even less time to get to the area. If Martin was under the mail thing for only two minutes, according to her, there’s not much hope. Omara will simply clobber DeeDee if she testiffies. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8099 "2012-11-21T14:49:24Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > DeeDee’s timeline makes no sense, considering that the 7-11 is only half a mile away. There’s nothing in her statement that Martin stopped somewhere in his return to the development, and if he ran it would have taken even less time to get to the area. If Martin was under the mail thing for only two minutes, according to her, there’s not much hope. Omara will simply clobber DeeDee if she testiffies. When I say I’m going to ‘run to the store to pick up some milk’, you might be shocked to know that I’m not actually running a la Usain Bolt. I’m probably not skipping or gangsta-dancing either. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8100 "2012-11-21T14:57:33Z")
However, if you say ‘it’s raining, so I am going to run to shelter and get out of it’ you will probably not be meandering. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8101 "2012-11-21T15:09:47Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > They don’t have to succumb to anything. Cops can arrest anyone if they have reason to believe they’ve perpetrated a crime. Except in Florida. In Florida, cops can’t arrest you when you claim self-defense unless they have probable cause to believe the force you used was unlawful. This may seem to be nitpicking, but it’s not. In my state, cops could indeed arrest you if they have probable cause to believe that a crime was committed, period. If they don’t know about the force used, for example, but have evidence supporting probable cause as to other elements of the crime, they can arrest, and develop additional evidence about the force used later. In Florida, that avenue is closed to them: they MUST develop probable cause specifically about the force used. Do you see the difference? That law handcuffs (ha!) the police investigation process by denying them the ability to even detain a suspect unless they first develop specific probable cause on force used – a requirement that exists nowhere else in the nation. > [@](#): > > Skip the hot air and answer me this: if the cops had arrested Zimmerman that night, based on the information they had at the time, would they have acted inappropriately? Do you really think they’d have little justification for taking that action? Based on the information they had at the time, at least the information I know about (see below), I’m reasonably confident that the arrest would have violated FSA 776.032, and any information they got from Zimmerman after his arrest would have been in danger of being thrown out. [sup]\*[/sup] > [@](#): > > At least one reported hearing a child or boy cry out. Her roommate corroborated her claims. “Despondent boy” was what was simply used in the report. Sorry if this is all news to you, but maybe you need to do some more homework before you come to the defense of these cops. If she said, unprompted, that what she heard was a child or a boy, then I agree probable cause existed. Did she? [sup]\*[/sup] The suppression of evidence obtained as the result of an illegal arrest is generally a well-understood prophylactic measure. But I think there’s a good prosecution argument to be made as follows: FSA 776.032 is not a protection of constitutional dimension. Therefore, a person arrested upon general probable cause but NOT the probable cause specified by FSA 776.032 has not suffered a constitutional infirmity and suppression of the fruit of such arrest is not constitutionally mandated. So far as I can discover, this would be an issue of first impression in Florida. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8102 "2012-11-21T15:35:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Except in Florida. In Florida, cops can’t arrest you when you claim self-defense unless they have probable cause to believe the force you used was unlawful. Gee, really? All along I thought we’ve been talking about probable cause for unlawful force and now you tell me we’re talking about…probable cause for unlawful force. Thanks for the breakthrough. > [@](#): > > If she said, unprompted, that what she heard was a child or a boy, then I agree probable cause existed. > > Did she? Why don’t you ask the cops and the witnesses? [There’s more evidence the cops were leading the witnesses in the other direction](http://abcnews.go.com/US/neighborhood-watch-shooting-trayvon-martin-probe-reveals-questionable/story?id=15907136), but don’t let that get in the way of you speculating about the contrary. From ABC news: > [@](#): > > But after the shooting, a source inside the police department told ABC News that a narcotics detective and not a homicide detective first approached Zimmerman. The detective pepppered Zimmerman with questions, the source said, rather than allow Zimmerman to tell his story. Questions can lead a witness, the source said. > > Another officer corrected a witness after she told him that she heard the teen cry for help. > > The officer told the witness, a long-time teacher, it was Zimmerman who cried for help, said the witness. **ABC News has spoken to the teacher and she confirmed that the officer corrected her when she said she heard the teenager shout for help.** The SPD bungled this investigation from start to finish, and surprise, surprise, look who is shamelessly defending them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=404) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=406)