# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 407
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8123 "2012-11-21T18:40:24Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Lol. You’re referring to the chain of discussion you would prefer to address. If things happened differently, things would have happend differently. WTF is going on here? The OP and I were talking about one thing and then he pulls out this red herring and I was simply trying to pull him/her back on task. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8124 "2012-11-21T18:41:15Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > ShelLIE Zimmerman should have been arrested for assisting a murderer, for her part in removing Z’s truck from the scene, and if the cops tasked with dealing with the incident hadn’t chalked this down as a slam dunk self-defence from the outset, and had investigated it properly, she would have been. Oh god, you’re one of those who actually support the UK’s [del]mugger’s charter[/del] self defence laws aren’t you? She did not assist a murderer because there was no murder (as murder requires a malicious state of mind in the killer)\*, and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with moving his truck, as it wasn’t evidence. \*That, by the way, is not some abstruse technical legal point, or Florida oddity, it’s a basic part of the definition of murder in both common and legal parlance. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8125 "2012-11-21T18:42:44Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > . > > \*GZ had a home, family, standing in his community, and a job (until the racist Sharptons, Spike Lees, Black Panthers, lynch-mobs, and lynch-mob media-types began threatening his family, co-workers, and fellow students). \* :dubious: This is the shit I am talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8126 "2012-11-21T18:45:10Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Are you another one who thinks 10 minutes of interviews on the night to investigate the death of a young man is perfectly adequate? If that was the sum total of the police investigation, no. As I’m sure you’re aware, they questioned Zimmerman for several hours that night, before deciding not to arrest him. Zimmerman claimed self defence. In the absence of evidence to the contrary, they could not arrest him. It would not surprise me if he sues for wrongful arrest and malicious prosecution (I don’t think that’s the correct term, but you get the point) after he’s found not guilty. Unless he’s found to have immunity at the SYG hearing, in which case I doubt he’d even have to threaten to sue before they’re begging to settle with him. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8127 "2012-11-21T18:46:12Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > It was dark as hell outside; identifying anyone’s race would have been difficult under those conditions. Her misidentifying Zimmerman as a black guy is a meaningless blunder, unless you’re crazy enough to think Martin actually was standing over Zimmerman after he was shot in the chest. It definitely puts to question anything else he says. Well, unless you’re **ywtf** who would believe anything, no matter how unreliable, if it fit his agenda. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8128 "2012-11-21T18:46:50Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > :dubious: > > This is the shit I am talking about. I’ve not heard you talk about how anyone threatened Zimmerman, and forced him out of his job. Perhaps you could link to that post, so I can see your no doubt clearly reasoned position on it. You are aware, I take it, of the threats to Zimmerman’s family and others close to him? ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8129 "2012-11-21T18:48:54Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Oh god, you’re one of those who actually support the UK’s [del]mugger’s charter[/del] self defence laws aren’t you? > > She did not assist a murderer because there was no murder (as murder requires a malicious state of mind in the killer)\*, and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with moving his truck, as it wasn’t evidence. > > \*That, by the way, is not some abstruse technical legal point, or Florida oddity, it’s a basic part of the definition of murder in both common and legal parlance. How can you say it wasn’t of evidential value knowing where the vehicle was parked? If it was noted anywhere other than where he said it was, you could try and pass it off as Z’s memory problems kicking in, but a jury isn’t going to believe he forgot where he parked, when he was supposed to be stone-cold sober. If Z had parked in a place where he could cut in front of TM and ShelLIE came and moved his vehicle before the cops had noted where it was, she has helped in the covering up of a targeted killing. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8130 "2012-11-21T18:49:30Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It definitely puts to question anything else he says. If you believed this, then you wouldn’t be defending Zimmerman. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8131 "2012-11-21T18:49:50Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Are you another one who thinks 10 minutes of interviews on the night to investigate the death of a young man is perfectly adequate? It was probably more than enough time for Cutcher considering she didn’t actually see anything that led up to the shooting. There were still other witnesses to interview. The PD had her name and address and could interview her later as did the State investigation and the SA office. Cutcher still maintains that she didn’t see what had happened. Would you “feel” better if all of the police interviewers had spent 1 hour listening to Cutcher say she hadn’t seen anything? 2 hours? More? ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8132 "2012-11-21T18:52:22Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I’ve not heard you talk about how anyone threatened Zimmerman, and forced him out of his job. Perhaps you could link to that post, so I can see your no doubt clearly reasoned position on it. > > You are aware, I take it, of the threats to Zimmerman’s family and others close to him? He should have thought of that before he started chasing down a young man harmlesly heading home from the shops. As you sew, so shall you reap. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8133 "2012-11-21T18:54:46Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > **WTF is going on here**? > > The OP and I were talking about one thing and then he pulls out this red herring and I was simply trying to pull him/her back on task. What’s going on is that you’re participating in a group conversation occuring over a public forum. If you wish to have a private conversation, you could always send that person a personal letter. Don’t forget to use a stamp. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8134 "2012-11-21T18:54:57Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > It was probably more than enough time for Cutcher considering she didn’t actually see anything that led up to the shooting. There were still other witnesses to interview. > > The PD had her name and address and could interview her later as did the State investigation and the SA office. Cutcher still maintains that she didn’t see what had happened. Would you “feel” better if all of the police interviewers had spent 1 hour listening to Cutcher say she hadn’t seen anything? 2 hours? More? How about 3 minutes each for the only person who actually saw them on the ground from a close enough distance to be semi-useful, and the guy who was outside with a flashlight within a minute or so of the gunshot? Does that sound like the makings of an extensive enquiry? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8135 "2012-11-21T18:58:25Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > This is the shit I am talking about. No, you’ve been talking about a whole bunch of other shit. You haven’t addressed this shit. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8136 "2012-11-21T18:59:34Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > What’s going on is that you’re participating in a group conversation occuring over a public forum. If you wish to have a private conversation, you could always send that person a personal letter. Don’t forget to use a stamp. Ok, I’ll play along to. Since you mentioned stamps, let’s then shift this discussion to talk about stamp collecting or some other irrelevant bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8137 "2012-11-21T19:00:10Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > How about 3 minutes each for the only person who actually saw them on the ground from a close enough distance to be semi-useful, and the guy who was outside with a flashlight within a minute or so of the gunshot? > > Does that sound like the makings of an extensive enquiry? You forgot to answer my question first. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8138 "2012-11-21T19:02:20Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > How can you say it wasn’t of evidential value knowing where the vehicle was parked? If it was noted anywhere other than where he said it was, you could try and pass it off as Z’s memory problems kicking in, but a jury isn’t going to believe he forgot where he parked, when he was supposed to be stone-cold sober. Well, if he’s just had his head repeatedly bashed against the ground I could forgive him a few memory problems… But no, where he parked is irrelevant, really. > [@](#): > > If Z had parked in a place where he could cut in front of TM and ShelLIE came and moved his vehicle before the cops had noted where it was, she has helped in the covering up of a targeted killing. Except that we know that this wasn’t a targeted killing. Zimmerman, as you know, called the police, and shortly after that, was attacked by the guy he thought he’d lost. These two things make it utterly absurd to suggest the killing was in any way planned. Can you cite, by the way, where the police have said there was anything wrong with moving the vehicle? It is, after all, their investigation, not yours, and they are the ones who know how to investigate, not you. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > He should have thought of that before he started chasing down a young man harmlesly heading home from the shops. As you sew, so shall you reap. Three things wrong with this. Firstly, and most importantly, whatever he did, no-one has the right to go after his family, and that it was done by professional race-baiters like Sharpton makes it all the worse. Secondly, there was no chasing, and, as you well know, if Martin had actually been heading home he’d have got there before encountering Zimmerman - even if Zimmerman _had_ been chasing him. Thirdly, **sow**. A minor detail, but illiteracy won’t help you build your case. And yes, I’ve just had to delete more typos from this post than probably any other I’ve ever made :smack: ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8139 "2012-11-21T19:03:23Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > No, you’ve been talking about a whole bunch of other shit. You haven’t addressed this shit. :smack: lynch mob? Why do these people keep using this imagery–for someone who stalked and killed someone? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8140 "2012-11-21T19:04:11Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > He should have thought of that before he started chasing down a young man harmlesly heading home from the shops. As you sew, so shall you reap. If you could prove (aka had evidence) that is what happened, you would have a pretty good case. As things exist today - you don’t. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8141 "2012-11-21T19:07:12Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > You forgot to answer my question first. I’d be happy if, after establishing that she hadn’t seen anything, they took into account what she might of heard, and I’d expect it to take more than 4 minutes. If it took a hour, so be it, but it should have been done efficiently and with no bias. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8142 "2012-11-21T19:07:37Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > How about 3 minutes each for the only person who actually saw them on the ground from a close enough distance to be semi-useful, and the guy who was outside with a flashlight within a minute or so of the gunshot? > > Does that sound like the makings of an extensive enquiry? If they judge they have sufficient information from them to make the necessary decision at that time, it’s fine. One assumes that, during those 3 minutes, they took names and addresses so as to ask any necessary follow up questions. Why do you see any urgency here? Zimmerman was neither a flight risk nor a threat to anyone else, it didn’t matter if they took an hour or a year about their investigation. If they let Zimmerman go, they can arrest him at any later date, they don’t waive that right. But if they _do_ arrest him, they limit the time they have to investigate, as well as opening themselves up to action if he turns out to have been acting in self defence. Unless it was a clear-cut case against him on the spot, which it obviously wasn’t, there was no value in arresting him on the spot. This, by the way, is not a judgement where his likely guilt is relevant, as an early arrest would have worked in his favour. Not least by getting him adequate legal advice early on. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=406) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=408)