# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 409
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8163 "2012-11-21T19:45:00Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Of course there was. Witnesses heard a teenager yelling, remember? Make up your frickin mind already. There was probable cause to make an arrest. In addition to that, the victim was unarmed and the shooter–after a period of pursuit–went well out of his way to be in the same area as the victim prior to him being gunned down. The witnesses heard _someone_ screaming, before the gunshot. Logic suggests that’s the guy with the serious head injuries. Also, I think you’re confused. Martin was the one who went out of his way to encounter Zimmerman, not that the police would have known that at the time. Still no probable cause, and no good reason to arrest him there and then if there was. > [@](#): > > I find it amazing that anyone at this late date would insist nothing stinks about the way this investigation was handled. The chief of police was made to resign, the lead detective was shipped out of the department, and the whole force is being investigated for violating Martin’s civil rights. Stuff like this generally doesn’t happen if folks are clean. I know that must be upsetting to accept, but grow up already. Corruption exists in this world. It happened because people refused to believe the results of the initial investigation, and still refuse to believe it despite all the evidence supporting that conclusion. The police have been scapegoated, just as Zimmerman has, because people simply won’t even consider the possibility that Martin was to blame. Pretty disgusting, really. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8164 "2012-11-21T19:46:30Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I have no idea what an “indictment affidavit” is. > > Perhaps you mean the affidavit supporting the prosecutor’s information. > > I agree that the affidavit is short on probable cause. > > That does not mean that probable cause does not exist. If there was probable cause, it would have to be in the “affidavit of probable cause”, wouldn’t it? Please point it out. If you don’t have a copy, here’s one: [http://www.wagist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/affidavit.pdf](http://www.wagist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/affidavit.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8165 "2012-11-21T19:48:37Z")
The police are NOT being scapegoated, they are being held to account for their fuck-ups, and rightly so. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8166 "2012-11-21T19:51:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That seems to apply. So, to be guilty of an offense under this section, the state would have to prove: > > (1) Ms. Zimmerman moved the truck, which > (2) assisted or gave aid to > (2) Mr. Zimmerman, who had committed murder of a child under 18 years of age, > (3) With the intent that Mr. Zimmerman avoid or escape arrest, trial, or punishment. > > Agreed? Yes. And if it turned out that a neighbour had a photo on his phone of Z’s truck nowhere near where he said it was and actually parked to place him ahead of TM’s path, timestamped for the correct time that evening, that would be evidence enough, right? ---
**Author:** ![Redbrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Redbrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redbrow)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8167 "2012-11-21T19:52:44Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > lynch mob? > > Why do these people keep using this imagery–for someone who stalked and killed someone? Even “these people” at Global Grind used “this imagery” for someone who is not charged with stalking someone. Twitter\*\* Lynch Mob \*\*Calls For Killing George Zimmerman After the immediate news of George Zimmerman’s release on $150,000 bail late Sunday night, deadly threats from the Twitter **lynch mobs** began to surface. So much so, that Zimmerman became a trending topic within minutes. The viciousness of Twitter has once again turned a fight for justice into a manhunt. Violence begets violence and we should not be calling for the killing of George Zimmerman. We’ve accomplished so much, calling for Zimmerman’s arrest and we achieved it. But now it’s time to let justice prevail and let the process play out. Calling for Zimmerman’s death will not bring back Trayvon. Read more: [Twitter Lynch Mob Calls For Killing George Zimmerman (DETAILS)](http://globalgrind.com/news/twitter-lynch-mob-calls-killing-george-zimmerman-released-jail-bond-trayvon-martin-sanford-florida-details#ixzz2Ct9VlVIl) ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8168 "2012-11-21T19:53:58Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The witnesses heard _someone_ screaming, before the gunshot. Logic suggests that’s the guy with the serious head injuries. No, logic doesn’t suggest that. What’s obvious is that you have problems distinguishing logic from fallacy. One could just as easily say that “logic suggests” the person with the gun stuck in their face would be the one most likely screaming. “Logic suggests” nothing about the source of the screaming. But multiple witnesses attributed the voice to a boy or teenager. This is a fact that can’t be denied, no matter how hard you stomp your feet and pout about it. The voice was attributed to someone who fit Martin’s profile, _not_ Zimmerman’s. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8169 "2012-11-21T19:58:29Z")
> [@Redbrow](#): > > Even “these people” at Global Grind used “this imagery” for someone who is not charged with stalking someone. > > Twitter\*\* Lynch Mob \*\*Calls For Killing George Zimmerman > > After the immediate news of George Zimmerman’s release on $150,000 bail late Sunday night, deadly threats from the Twitter **lynch mobs** began to surface. So much so, that Zimmerman became a trending topic within minutes. > > The viciousness of Twitter has once again turned a fight for justice into a manhunt. Violence begets violence and we should not be calling for the killing of George Zimmerman. > \*\* > We’ve accomplished so much, calling for Zimmerman’s arrest and we achieved it. But now it’s time to let justice prevail and let the process play out. Calling for Zimmerman’s death will not bring back Trayvon.\*\* > > Read more: [Twitter Lynch Mob Calls For Killing George Zimmerman (DETAILS)](http://globalgrind.com/news/twitter-lynch-mob-calls-killing-george-zimmerman-released-jail-bond-trayvon-martin-sanford-florida-details#ixzz2Ct9VlVIl) What the hell does this have to do with what i just said and asked? What is this bullshit? Slogans aren’t going to work with me. Who the hell is calling for Zimmerman’s death? WTF is going on here? or are you here to troll? ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8170 "2012-11-21T20:00:20Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > No, logic doesn’t suggest that. What’s obvious is that you have problems distinguishing logic from fallacy. One could just as easily say that “logic suggests” the person with the gun stuck in their face would be the one most likely screaming. “Logic suggests” nothing about the source of the screaming. This is an interesting point. TM is supposed to have been going for Z’s gun first, because dumb old George had forgotten he was carrying it - What’s the first rule of Carrying A Gun Club? Don’t forget you have it. - but despite Z obviously winning the war of control over the suddenly viable weapon, we never heard one shout or cry of alarm from Trayvon before he was shot and it was actually Z who’d had the last scream, as he went into berserker mode, or something. ---
**Author:** ![Redbrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Redbrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redbrow)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8171 "2012-11-21T20:01:14Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > It was dark as hell outside; identifying anyone’s race would have been difficult under those conditions. Her misidentifying Zimmerman as a black guy is a meaningless blunder, unless you’re crazy enough to think Martin actually was standing over Zimmerman after he was shot in the chest. > > As opposed to John, whose"the kid was throwing MMA-style punches…oops, my bad, maybe he wasn’t after all" recantation makes him pretty useless as a witness, Mary has maintained her position that the voice she was heard from a teenager. The MMA style was in reference to Trayvon’s “ground and pound” mounting position, from which ‘John’ never recanted. He only clarified that he could not see the blows due to Martin’s back blocking his view from his perspective. Therefore, he could neither confirm or deny, with absolute certainty, that was Martin was striking Zimmerman during the time he witnessed the assault. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8172 "2012-11-21T20:04:55Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > No, logic doesn’t suggest that. What’s obvious is that you have problems distinguishing logic from fallacy. One could just as easily say that “logic suggests” the person with the gun stuck in their face would be the one most likely screaming. “Logic suggests” nothing about the source of the screaming. No-one had a gun stuck in their face, so you’re wrong again. > [@](#): > > But multiple witnesses attributed the voice to a boy or teenager. This is a fact that can’t be denied, no matter how hard you stomp your feet and pout about it. The voice was attributed to someone who fit Martin’s profile, _not_ Zimmerman’s. Who saw the person screaming? Who did they say was screaming? Who did the people who could actually recognise the person screaming say it was? The answers, by the way, are “Zimmerman”, “Zimmerman”, and, from their respective parents, “Zimmerman” and “not Martin”. No other witnesses saw it, and so cannot have identified the screamer. So, when the witness claimed to have heard Martin screaming, the policeman rightly corrected her. If a witness claims something impossible, the police shouldn’t use their claim as a basis for arrest. It’s frankly astonishing that I need to point this out, but, after reading this thread, I probably should raise my threshold for astonishment at peoples ignorance and inability to reason. But hey, you’re not interested in what can be shown with facts and logic, so I expect you’ll disregard this post. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8173 "2012-11-21T20:05:00Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Of course there was. Witnesses heard a teenager yelling, remember? And other witnesses heard Zimmerman yelling. Why does that not also figure into your calculations? “Totality of the circumstances,” remember? > [@](#): > > Make up your frickin mind already. I actually debated letting **Terr** ’s error go unchallenged because I knew you would be able to understand the distinction between the two questions, or even understand that that a distinction existed. But I didn’t, because I’m the only guy in this thread who is arguing the law, not for Zimmerman or against Zimmerman or for Martin or against Martin. > [@](#): > > I find it amazing that anyone at this late date would insist nothing stinks about the way this investigation was handled. The chief of police was made to resign, the lead detective was shipped out of the department, and the whole force is being investigated for violating Martin’s civil rights. Stuff like this generally doesn’t happen if folks are clean. I know that must be upsetting to accept, but grow up already. Corruption exists in this world. Sure, corruption exists. I’m not arguing the police did nothing wrong, nor am I arguing they are – or are not – corrupt. I am saying that probable cause to believe the force used was unlawful did not exist that night. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8174 "2012-11-21T20:05:55Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Who the hell is calling for Zimmerman’s death? WTF is going on here? You’re kidding, right? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8175 "2012-11-21T20:07:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I am saying that probable cause to believe the force used was unlawful did not exist that night. … and still doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8176 "2012-11-21T20:08:06Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > If there was probable cause, it would have to be in the “affidavit of probable cause”, wouldn’t it? No. Well, let me be more clear: the affidavit of probable cause must establish probable cause, yes. And I agree it fails to do so. But the affidavit is not required to exhaustively list all the evidence that exists. So the question is: could I now write an affidavit of probable cause that WOULD be legally sufficient? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8177 "2012-11-21T20:09:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But I didn’t, because I’m the only guy in this thread who is arguing the law, not for Zimmerman or against Zimmerman or for Martin or against Martin. I’m _attempting_ to argue the law, but I’ll admit I’m often getting sidetracked into discussions of morality, or irrelevant factual details. There’s at least a couple of others doing the same. ---
**Author:** ![Redbrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Redbrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redbrow)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8178 "2012-11-21T20:09:38Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > What the hell does this have to do with what i just said and asked? > > What is this bullshit? Slogans aren’t going to work with me. Who the hell is calling for Zimmerman’s death? WTF is going on here? > > or are you here to troll? You seem unhinged and are not making sense. What slogans? I posted a link to prove that ‘lynch mob’ was widely used by the media, even African American owned and operated media. How is that trolling? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8179 "2012-11-21T20:09:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. > > Well, let me be more clear: the affidavit of probable cause must establish probable cause, yes. And I agree it fails to do so. But the affidavit is not required to exhaustively list all the evidence that exists. So the question is: could I now write an affidavit of probable cause that WOULD be legally sufficient? > > Yes. Cool. Do write one. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8180 "2012-11-21T20:13:42Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Yes. And if it turned out that a neighbour had a photo on his phone of Z’s truck nowhere near where he said it was and actually parked to place him ahead of TM’s path, timestamped for the correct time that evening, that would be evidence enough, right? Evidence enough for what? To arrest Ms. Zimmerman on a charge of accessory after the fact in violation of FSA § 777.03 ? No. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8181 "2012-11-21T20:17:47Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Cool. Do write one. OK. Before I waste time: do you agree that the extant affidavit establishes probable cause for manslaughter? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8182 "2012-11-21T20:21:11Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And other witnesses heard Zimmerman yelling. Where’s your evidence of this? Which witnesses told the cops on the night of the shooting that they heard Zimmerman screaming for help right before the gunshot? And please don’t insult my intelligence by including Zimmerman in with these witnesses. Which witnesses fingered Zimmerman as the voice on that 911 tape? > [@](#): > > Why does that not also figure into your calculations? “Totality of the circumstances,” remember? I’ve outlined the totality of the circumstances that implicate Zimmerman. What other evidence is that negates all of that? Be specific. > [@](#): > > I am saying that probable cause to believe the force used was unlawful did not exist that night. And that’s hilarious. Earlier you plainly stated if witnesses attested to hearing a teenager cry out before the gunshot, then that establishes probable cause. Now all of a sudden, that’s not the case. Why are you so inconsistent in your positions? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=408) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=410)