# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 417
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8323 "2012-11-22T19:25:27Z")
How does claiming to have killed someone in self defence show probable cause for being on drugs? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8324 "2012-11-22T19:27:34Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > But, if they **did** see them weaving, even if they didn’t kill anything, it’d be fine to pull them over and test them? Is that what you are saying? > > And you think that’s reasonable, but testing someone with minor injuries who claims to have killed someone in self-defence is not? No, even if someone was pulled over for weaving they would not give a breathalizer test. Our laws are diffferent than the UK. In the UK they will ask to test you if you admit to 1 drink regardless of any indication of intoxication. In the US you will be given a physical sobriety test first if there is an indication of impairment followed by a breathalizer if you fail the physical test of impairment. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8325 "2012-11-22T19:27:42Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I don’t think that quote particularly applies to this situation, but I’ll answer your question in a sec. What I will say is that it very much **does** apply to the police, who have the power to arrest, and the courts, who have the power to imprison or even kill, and they have the responsibility to use that power only at need, and with the strongest of proof. > > I’ll answer that in two parts. Firstly, at the instant he shot Martin, his responsibility is to himself and to those who depend on him. Martin, by putting Zimmerman in the position he was in, lost the right to care by Zimmerman. At that precise moment, _if_ he is in reasonable fear of death or serious injury, he has no responsibility to look after Martin. > > Secondly, I’ll talk about what happened shortly prior to that. Zimmerman saw someone acting in a way that made him suspect criminal activity. Rather than ignore it, he took responsibility and phoned the police. He made the rather foolish decision to follow Martin, but when he was asked to stop doing so by the dispatcher, he stopped. Again, I would say that was a responsible act. > > He was then attacked by Martin, despite as far as we know having done nothing to him to provoke it. He didn’t immediately fight back, judging by the lack of injuries to Martin, but instead called for help. When that help didn’t arrive, and as his injuries mounted, and his fear increased, he shot Martin to protect himself. I certainly don’t consider that irresponsible, but it is of course extremely unfortunate that he didn’t wait a few seconds longer. > > So, I think his actions were responsible. I don’t believe he could reasonably have expected to be attacked following his actions, and I don’t believe he could reasonably expect his actions would lead to the death of anyone. That, to me, is a sufficient level of responsibility. Everything you say has to be prefaced with the disclaimer “IF Zimmerman is telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth as he remembers it.” That’s too big an IF for me to go all in on like you have, but I admire your balls and your seeming preparedness to take the grief you are going to get when yoyu are proven wrong on just about everything you think about Z. Go on, just ftr, say you think he was a credit to his community, too. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8326 "2012-11-22T19:29:33Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > How does claiming to have killed someone in self defence show probable cause for being on drugs? How many times have you heard criminals blame their murders on the drugs they took? It’d be the logical thing to do when a supposedly ordinary citizen suddenly goes out and shoots a 17 yr old innocent. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8327 "2012-11-22T19:33:19Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > How many times have you heard criminals blame their murders on the drugs they took? > > It’d be the logical thing to do when a supposedly ordinary citizenn suddenly goes out and shoots a 17 yr old innocent. But dimmy, that’s not what happened. There is clear signs of a struggle WITH witnesses. There is nothing innocent about assaulting someone. Now if it happened as you just stated then Zimmerman would be immediately seen as killing someone without cause. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8328 "2012-11-22T19:37:07Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Everything you say has to be prefaced with the disclaimer “IF Zimmerman is telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth as he remembers it.” No dimmy it’s not based on believing what Zimmerman says is true. It’s based on the consistency of the evidence as it relates to his statement. We’ve looked for a smoking gun bit of evidence that shows he attacked Martin. There is none. Martin shows no signs of being attacked but Zimmerman does. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8329 "2012-11-22T19:48:50Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Everything you say has to be prefaced with the disclaimer “IF Zimmerman is telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth as he remembers it.” > > That’s too big an IF for me to go all in on like you have, but I admire your balls and your seeming preparedness to take the grief you are going to get when yoyu are proven wrong on just about everything you think about Z. > > Go on, just ftr, say you think he was a credit to his community, too. It’s still interesting that, for all the claims that there’s evidence to prove me wrong, no-one is supplying it. You’d have to ask the members of his community whether they consider him a credit thereto. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8330 "2012-11-22T19:49:02Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > But dimmy, that’s not what happened. There is clear signs of a struggle WITH witnesses. There is nothing innocent about assaulting someone. Now if it happened as you just stated then Zimmerman would be immediately seen as killing someone without cause. No, really, there isn’t. There is one person who seems to have described them lay atop of each other at some point after the yells began. It wasn’t the best viewing conditions out there and this crucial witness says they made a few assumptions at first, but on reflection there wasn’t a lot he could really say about if any one of them was the aggressor. Seeing Trayvon just sprawled atop of Z does not bolster Z’s claims of him getting a beating while he says he was yelling. The witness says he never saw Z’s or Trayvons hands moving during the struggle and his time watching was about 10 seconds, before going inside to phone the police. All that corroborates for Z is they were on the ground together, but it says nothing of how they got there and who made the first hostile move. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8331 "2012-11-22T19:59:19Z")
As for indisputable evidence of whether Z was lying about the crucial seconds leading up to him not knowing if he’d shot Trayvon, with the gun he’d forgot he had, we have recorded evidence of the moments up to the gunshot; we hear Z’s supposed cries for help, but whether audio experts can detect any other voices saying things like “Yo, homeboy, yo gonna die tonight, ya stinky muddafugga” and other lines from New Jack City, remains to be seen. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8332 "2012-11-22T20:21:27Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > That’s too big an IF for me to go all in on like you have, but I admire your balls and your seeming preparedness to take the grief you are going to get when yoyu are proven wrong on just about everything you think about Z. > > Go on, just ftr, say you think he was a credit to his community, too. It has been repeatedly stated to you, by multiple people and in multiple ways, that this has nothing to do with how we feel about Zimmerman or Martin. That is an emotional component and has no bearing on the case. This is not the first time you’ve projected your emotions against other posters. You just accused someone of having balls for an opinion. There is no place for this mindset in a discussion. But I’ll say what you asked with sincerity because I’ve been in Martin’s shoes. I’ve been asked within eyesight of my own house what I was doing in the neighborhood. I was greatly insulted yet I knew the person asking was watching the neighborhood. No fight broke out. Everybody is alive and well. Nothing bad happened because I didn’t project my thoughts of what the other person was thinking. I’m not psychic and understand that what I think other people might be thinking is purely conjecture and should not be acted upon. I recognized what the person who asked me was doing and it was for the benefit of my neighborhood. So yes, Zimmerman was a credit to his community for watching out for crime and calling the police. If there is evidence that he assaulted Martin then I will change my mind but until then I have to go on the evidence available and not what I think other people were thinking. The evidence shows Zimmerman avoided conflict at his car where at the same time Martin comes to him at the car. It shows that Zimmerman was still on the sidewalk he said he was on whereas Martin moved from the area he said he was at toward the direction he ran from. Everything points to Martin coming to Zimmerman and not the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8333 "2012-11-22T20:29:20Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > No, really, there isn’t. There is one person who seems to have described them lay atop of each other at some point after the yells began. > > It wasn’t the best viewing conditions out there and this crucial witness says they made a few assumptions at first, but on reflection there wasn’t a lot he could really say about if any one of them was the aggressor. > > Seeing Trayvon just sprawled atop of Z does not bolster Z’s claims of him getting a beating while he says he was yelling. > > The witness says he never saw Z’s or Trayvons hands moving during the struggle and his time watching was about 10 seconds, before going inside to phone the police. > > All that corroborates for Z is they were on the ground together, but it says nothing of how they got there and who made the first hostile move. sigh… there isn’t a mark on Martin. All the signs of assault are on Zimmerman. All of them right down to the grass stains on his coat. There is zero doubt he was on the ground being attacked. Why are you insisting this didn’t happen? The punch in the nose and the head injuries are backed up by physical evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8334 "2012-11-22T20:36:43Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > I just wanted to wish everyone a Happy Thanksgiving. > > Hope everyone is having a good holiday–and I mean it. > > We’ll continue the war tomorrow–peace today LOL. This. For those in the US I bid a happy Thanksgiving. For those in other countries I hope your day goes well. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8335 "2012-11-22T20:41:04Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > sigh… there isn’t a mark on Martin. All the signs of assault are on Zimmerman. All of them right down to the grass stains on his coat. There is zero doubt he was on the ground being attacked. Why are you insisting this didn’t happen? The punch in the nose and the head injuries are backed up by physical evidence. Of course there isn’t a mark on Martin. Z had his hands full with his torch and the grip he had on Trayvon’s hoody. When Trayvon then bopped Z on the nose and Z dropped his torch, they had a little waltz down the path, slipped on the wet grass and ended up how the witness who stepped outside saw them. Remember how witnesses say they heard the noises of a dispute moving along? That was Z and TM doing the standing wrestling thing. The rest of the marks on Z look more like scratches than a sign of any heavy blows. The grass stains only show he was on his back and we knew that anyway because a witness said so. It’s still far from indicative of how he ended up on his back. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8336 "2012-11-22T20:41:59Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Hope everyone is having a good holiday… PSST, today isn’t a holiday for everyone participating in this thread. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8337 "2012-11-22T22:02:29Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I don’t think that quote particularly applies to this situation, but I’ll answer your question in a sec. What I will say is that it very much **does** apply to the police, who have the power to arrest, and the courts, who have the power to imprison or even kill, and they have the responsibility to use that power only at need, and with the strongest of proof. > > I’ll answer that in two parts. Firstly, at the instant he shot Martin, his responsibility is to himself and to those who depend on him. Martin, by putting Zimmerman in the position he was in, lost the right to care by Zimmerman. At that precise moment, _if_ he is in reasonable fear of death or serious injury, he has no responsibility to look after Martin. > > Secondly, I’ll talk about what happened shortly prior to that. Zimmerman saw someone acting in a way that made him suspect criminal activity. Rather than ignore it, he took responsibility and phoned the police. He made the rather foolish decision to follow Martin, but when he was asked to stop doing so by the dispatcher, he stopped. Again, I would say that was a responsible act. > > He was then attacked by Martin, despite as far as we know having done nothing to him to provoke it. He didn’t immediately fight back, judging by the lack of injuries to Martin, but instead called for help. When that help didn’t arrive, and as his injuries mounted, and his fear increased, he shot Martin to protect himself. I certainly don’t consider that irresponsible, but it is of course extremely unfortunate that he didn’t wait a few seconds longer. > > So, I think his actions were responsible. I don’t believe he could reasonably have expected to be attacked following his actions, and I don’t believe he could reasonably expect his actions would lead to the death of anyone. That, to me, is a sufficient level of responsibility. The Prosecutor’s going to have a hell of a time proving Zimmerman didn’t stop, since the wind noise vanished, and Zimmerman could be heard tapping something repeatedly during the conversation with the dispatcher. Since it’s unlikely that Zimmertman was walking around, tapping various places, you just about have to come to the conclusion that he was stationary, just talking to the dispatcher in a rather unhurried tone of voice. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8338 "2012-11-22T23:25:34Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > The Prosecutor’s going to have a hell of a time proving Zimmerman didn’t stop, since the wind noise vanished, and Zimmerman could be heard tapping something repeatedly during the conversation with the dispatcher. Since it’s unlikely that Zimmertman was walking around, tapping various places, you just about have to come to the conclusion that he was stationary, just talking to the dispatcher in a rather unhurried tone of voice. So, where do you think he was when he was doing the tapping? Stood by the sign at the top of the T intersection? When he was doing this tapping, would you have expected him to be that distracted that he wasn’t even looking in the direction he’d last seen the person he was looking for go? And then just walk off to his truck without paying any attention to his surroundings until Trayvon allegedly either jumped out of some bushes and knocked him straight to the ground in his earliest story, or punches him and causes him to stagger 40ft in the opposite direction, in his later tale? If your bullshitometers aren’t even twitching slightly, you need to check your power supply. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8339 "2012-11-22T23:47:24Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > I didn’t really think Serino was a broken watch, ya know? My point is, he knew in his gut, heart and head that Z’s story was wrong, but his hands were tied behind his back by the bs laws supposedly designed to protect people from oddballs like George. I don’t disagree. In fact, I think you’re exactly right: in any other state, an arrest would probably have been lawful. Florida’s scheme of requiring not simply probable cause to believe a crime had been committed – the usual formula – but probable cause specifically to believe the force used was unlawful, was absolutely a hindrance to Serino and harmed the investigation. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8340 "2012-11-22T23:50:43Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > The same law that allowed them to put handcuffs on his wrists and interrogate him at the station for 3-5 hrs. What law is that, specifically? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8341 "2012-11-22T23:57:15Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > It would only have been invasive if Zimmerman [refused](http://www.ibtimes.com/trayvon-martin-shooting-why-wasnt-george-zimmerman-given-drug-alcohol-tests-travyon-was-428096) to be tested and they forced it on him. > > He had just as much freedom to refuse handcuffing and interrogation, but he complied. He also had the freedom to decline that pseudo-lie detector test, but alas, he took that as well. So why would it have been illegal for the cops to test this guy for drugs? As with all the other stuff, he could have said no. From your link: > [@](#): > > Except for DUIs, police cannot test suspects for drugs or alcohol, unless the accused demands or consents to it, or they get a warrant. Trayvon Martin was tested for drugs and alcohol because it is the normal procedure of autopsies to determine the exact cause of death or contributing factors of death, the Washington Times said. The so-called law enforcement and legal experts who claim Zimmerman should have been tested demonstrate they have no expertise. It’s not even true to say, “He could be tested unless he said no.” In fact, he can’t be tested unless he says “Yes.” He has to affirmatively consent. So once again, you confidently assert something that’s wrong, because you heard it on “Franklin & Bash,” or some similar weighty legal authority. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8342 "2012-11-22T23:58:19Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t disagree. In fact, I think you’re exactly right: in any other state, an arrest would probably have been lawful. Florida’s scheme of requiring not simply probable cause to believe a crime had been committed – the usual formula – but probable cause specifically to believe the force used was unlawful, was absolutely a hindrance to Serino and harmed the investigation. I had to log out and log back in to check this post. For a second there I thought I was in some Twilight Zone version of this thread where everything I was saying made sense. ps. Now I’m reading it and looking for where **Bricker** is trying to trip me up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=416) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=418)