# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 418
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8343 "2012-11-23T05:51:26Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Of course there isn’t a mark on Martin. Z had his hands full with his torch and the grip he had on Trayvon’s hoody. The flashlight was found on the ground away from the fight. and if it wasn’t it would have been a lovely weapon to strike Martin with. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > When Trayvon then bopped Z on the nose and Z dropped his torch, they had a little waltz down the path, slipped on the wet grass and ended up how the witness who stepped outside saw them. > > Remember how witnesses say they heard the noises of a dispute moving along? > > That was Z and TM doing the standing wrestling thing. The rest of the marks on Z look more like scratches than a sign of any heavy blows. His nose was bleeding from the punch and the back of his head was bleeding from strikes on the pavement. All of it is consistent with his account of what happened which will be entered in court. > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > The grass stains only show he was on his back and we knew that anyway because a witness said so. It’s still far from indicative of how he ended up on his back. He ended up there by being punched and the grass stains confirm he was the one on the ground being struck as do his injuries. All of this was witnessed by multiple people. you keep repeating a story with virtually no evidence to support it and then manage to gloss over the fact that Martin moved from his stated location next to his house to the place he ran from. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8344 "2012-11-23T09:03:12Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > That’s the problem with so many people in this thread… Imho, the problem with so many people in this thread is that they want to talk about the problems with so many people in this thread instead of the subject at hand. ymmv ---
**Author:** ![Saraya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Saraya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saraya)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8345 "2012-11-23T11:45:39Z")
> [@Ellen\_Cherry](#): > > Moderator Warning > > No. You are not to take comments from the Pit and drag them into other threads. I asked you to cool it earlier today and you’re obviously not, so I’m issuing you a warning for ignoring a moderator’s instructions. > > Ellen Cherry Fourth one actually, or are warnings not cross applied by moderators? This is why I have nothing really to input about the police questioning and canvasing - what could they have missed that would provide grounds for illegal killing? No one has shown anything so seems a moot point. > [@redhook1](#): > > Ok so as an impartial investigator, what specific facts/evidence that implicated Zimmerman as having committed an unlawful killing. That was discovered that night in accordance with the law, did they overlook? ---
**Author:** ![Saraya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Saraya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saraya)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8346 "2012-11-23T11:57:38Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > doesn’t seem any crazier than YwtF’s accusation that he is corrupt. > > Personally I think a lot of the malfeasance and bumbling by the SPD is easily attributable to limited exposure to these kinds of cases. That and a relatively new statute that forbids arrest under circumstances where there is no probable cause. Post Zimmerman I think most SYG shooters are going to find themselves immediately arrested, at least up to the point some sues for rights violations. > > A more seasoned department and/or more experience with the new SYG law and I suspect Zimmerman would have been arrested on the spot regardless of Martin’s skin color. Agreed on the former part, disagree on the latter. We’re not doing this again are we? They had nothing to arrest him for. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8347 "2012-11-23T13:04:35Z")
> [@Saraya](#): > > Fourth one actually, or are warnings not cross applied by moderators? > This is why I have nothing really to input about the police questioning and canvasing - what could they have missed that would provide grounds for illegal killing? > No one has shown anything so seems a moot point. First off, if they only took 3 witness statements on the night, how could they know for sure that another witness further away from the scene hadn’t seen more than the witnesses chosen to be interviewed had? How could you possibly be happy with a potential murderer being released after 10 minutes of interviews with witnesses and a casual chat with a real homicide detective, especially when he’s already said in an earlier interview he was jumped on out of bushes and punched straight to the floor, over 40ft away from the dead body he admits responsibility for, and his injuries just don’t match up with the ferocious assault he has described? ---
**Author:** ![Saraya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Saraya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saraya)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8348 "2012-11-23T14:46:03Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > First off, if they only took 3 witness statements on the night, how could they know for sure that another witness further away from the scene hadn’t seen more than the witnesses chosen to be interviewed had? Ok…so they take fifty witness statements. Are you suggesting that IF it was CLEAR that Zimmerman (we’ll say murdered) murdered Martin, that the more witnesses means there’s a higher probability they saw it? Of course the answer is yes. Does it mean there’s a higher probability he actually did it.. no… > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > How could you possibly be happy with a potential murderer being released after 10 minutes of interviews with witnesses and a casual chat with a real homicide detective, especially when he’s already said in an earlier interview he was jumped on out of bushes and punched straight to the floor, over 40ft away from the dead body he admits responsibility for, and his injuries just don’t match up with the ferocious assault he has described? I said before, there is no arbitrary time that police must spend during a detainment and canvasing. With neither Zimmerman or any of the witnesses being a flight risk, why the urge to interrogate them like a US prisoner in Afghanistan? It’s like there’s this sentiment that any and ALL investigation must be done RIGHT there and anything after that is useless. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8349 "2012-11-23T16:23:11Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s not even true to say, “He could be tested unless he said no.” In fact, he can’t be tested unless he says “Yes.” He has to affirmatively consent. Big fucking deal, Bricker. It doesn’t change the fact that it would not have been illegal to test Zimmerman for drugs that night. You were wrong about that assertion just like you’ve been wrong about plenty other legal issues in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Saraya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Saraya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saraya)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8350 "2012-11-23T16:36:50Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Big fucking deal, Bricker. It doesn’t change the fact that it would not have been illegal to test Zimmerman for drugs that night. You were wrong about that assertion just like you’ve been wrong about plenty other legal issues in this thread. The words of a law must be understood according to their usual signification, unless it is certain that the legislator intended them to be taken in another sense. You seem surprised (or not) at Bricker’s distinctions when in fact they do matter and are a “big fucking deal.” ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8351 "2012-11-23T16:37:46Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > First off, if they only took 3 witness statements on the night, how could they know for sure that another witness further away from the scene hadn’t seen more than the witnesses chosen to be interviewed had? Who is the witness further away who saw more (in the dark)? > [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > How could you possibly be happy with a potential murderer being released after 10 minutes of interviews with witnesses and a casual chat with a real homicide detective, especially when he’s already said in an earlier interview he was jumped on out of bushes and punched straight to the floor, over 40ft away from the dead body he admits responsibility for, and his injuries just don’t match up with the ferocious assault he has described? He interviewed for 5 hrs and his injuries match up with someone punched in the face and slammed into cement. Of this there will be no dispute. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8352 "2012-11-23T16:42:32Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Big fucking deal, Bricker. It doesn’t change the fact that it would not have been illegal to test Zimmerman for drugs that night. You were wrong about that assertion just like you’ve been wrong about plenty other legal issues in this thread. I never said it would be illegal to test him, **you with the face**. Here are my posts – read them again. Where did I say that? I said: “It’s not even true to say, ‘He could be tested unless he said no.’ In fact, he can’t be tested unless he says ‘Yes.’ He has to affirmatively consent.” That’s absolutely true – as you admit when you say “Big fucking deal.” So where did I say it was illegal? > [@Bricker](#): > > Can you explain what law would have permitted the police to test Zimmerman? > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > The same law that allowed them to put handcuffs on his wrists and interrogate him at the station for 3-5 hrs. > [@Bricker](#): > > What law is that, specifically? > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > It would only have been invasive if Zimmerman [refused](http://www.ibtimes.com/trayvon-martin-shooting-why-wasnt-george-zimmerman-given-drug-alcohol-tests-travyon-was-428096) to be tested and they forced it on him. > > He had just as much freedom to refuse handcuffing and interrogation, but he complied. He also had the freedom to decline that pseudo-lie detector test, but alas, he took that as well. So why would it have been illegal for the cops to test this guy for drugs? As with all the other stuff, he could have said no. > [@Bricker](#): > > From your link: > > > [@](#): > > > > Except for DUIs, police cannot test suspects for drugs or alcohol, unless the accused demands or consents to it, or they get a warrant. Trayvon Martin was tested for drugs and alcohol because it is the normal procedure of autopsies to determine the exact cause of death or contributing factors of death, the Washington Times said. The so-called law enforcement and legal experts who claim Zimmerman should have been tested demonstrate they have no expertise. > > It’s not even true to say, “He could be tested unless he said no.” In fact, he can’t be tested unless he says “Yes.” He has to affirmatively consent. > > So once again, you confidently assert something that’s wrong, because you heard it on “Franklin & Bash,” or some similar weighty legal authority. I will now say, unambiguously: **It would have been illegal to test Zimmerman for drugs or alcohol that night without his express consent.** Do you agree? Do you disagree? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8353 "2012-11-23T16:50:34Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Big fucking deal, Bricker. It doesn’t change the fact that it would not have been illegal to test Zimmerman for drugs that night. You were wrong about that assertion just like you’ve been wrong about plenty other legal issues in this thread. It would not be illegal for you to get yourself tested right now. So yes in this regard it wasn’t illegal for Zimmerman to get tested. But the police had no basis in which to make the request based on the observation of Zimmerman. There was no probable cause. It was clear at the time that he had been assaulted. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8354 "2012-11-23T16:52:08Z")
For context, here is **monstro** ’s line that started this latest discussion: > [@monstro](#): > > Personally, I am even more bothered by the fact that no one thought to test Mr. Zimmerman for any intoxication on the night of the incident, but the young man who lost his life that night was not given the same cover. My answer to that observation is: It would have been illegal to test Zimmerman for drugs or alcohol that night without his express consent. So it may not be that no one thought to test him, but rather that no one thought he would give his express consent, or that asking him for his express consent would cause him to terminate whatever cooperation he was giving. Do we know which it was? Also worth a response: Zimmerman and Martin were treated differently because they were different. Martin was dead, the victim of a homicide. As such, his body was autopsied as required by law. No consent of anyone was needed to test Martin’s body for drugs or alcohol. Zimmerman was alive, and the suspect in a homicide. Lacking any law which permitted the police to test Zimmerman’s body for alcohol or drugs, the test could not be done without Zimmerman’s express consent. These are the reasons Zimmerman and Martin were treated differently with respect to testing for drugs and/or alcohol. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8355 "2012-11-23T16:53:30Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Big fucking deal, Bricker. It doesn’t change the fact that it would not have been illegal to test Zimmerman for drugs that night. You were wrong about that assertion just like you’ve been wrong about plenty other legal issues in this thread. And a shorter, pithier answer: Yes, it would have been illegal to test Zimmerman for drugs that night, because he did not expressly consent. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8356 "2012-11-23T17:11:50Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And a shorter, pithier answer: > > Yes, it would have been illegal to test Zimmerman for drugs that night, because he did not expressly consent. Was he asked? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8357 "2012-11-23T17:19:38Z")
Why are you so concerned whether Zimmerman had drugs or alcohol in his system? The only thing about this case that could possibly change if he did would be that they could charge him with drunk driving… Either the killing was legitimate self defence, or it wasn’t. Zimmerman being on drugs wouldn’t change that. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8358 "2012-11-23T17:56:16Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Was he asked? If he was it would have been extremely unprofessional. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8359 "2012-11-23T18:04:56Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If he was it would have been extremely unprofessional. Lol. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8360 "2012-11-23T18:10:02Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Was he asked? I don’t know. And I also don’t know if the police decided not to ask him because they thought a request would be refused and would also terminate his desire to cooperate, or if they just thought it was obviously unnecessary, or if they forgot, or if they were racists who thought killing Martin was essentially a public service. But since I don’t know those things, I don’t reach any conclusion about the lack of testing. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8361 "2012-11-23T18:11:37Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Why are you so concerned whether Zimmerman had drugs or alcohol in his system? The only thing about this case that could possibly change if he did would be that they could charge him with drunk driving… > > Either the killing was legitimate self defence, or it wasn’t. Zimmerman being on drugs wouldn’t change that. No, I disagree. The objective trustworthiness of his belief that he was in danger of serious bodily injury is lessened if we learned that he was intoxicated. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8362 "2012-11-23T18:16:50Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But since I don’t know those things, I don’t reach any conclusion about the lack of testing. So you have no basis to say testing him would have been illegal. For all you know, Zimmerman volunteered to be tested and the cops are the ones that declined to do so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=417) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=419)