# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 423
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8443 "2012-11-24T15:05:04Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > **Authorities still don’t know what’s on Trayvon Martin’s cellphone > Defense attorneys say they need to know more.** > > [http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-trayvon-cell-phone-20121125,0,542835.story](http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-trayvon-cell-phone-20121125,0,542835.story) This is just incompetence on the part of the prosecutors. How do they know DeeDee and Trayvon cellphone logs even match? It’s obvious the Trayvon cellphone records provided are not the actual phone bill. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8444 "2012-11-24T15:18:48Z")
From the link. > [@](#): > > The phone uses an Android operating system, owned by Google, and Google may be able to bypass the security system and retrieve it, Kleiman said. A technician also could pull the chip out of the phone and analyze it, **considered by some to be an extreme step because it would destroy the phone**. Who would be objecting to the phone being destroyed? I doubt Trayvon’s family or DD want it as a keepsake, so get the fucking chip out, already! ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8445 "2012-11-24T17:38:20Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > For those all fixated on “facts,” it’s all right there on Wikipedia’s pages if you can be arsed to check it out. > > Check my appeals to authority, and wiki back up quotes, biatches. > > Google is your friend, stop being a stranger. > > ps. If it’s good enough for Tim McVeigh, it shold cook George Zimmerman’s goose. Although not literally, I’d hope; unlike George, I’m against the death penalty on moral grounds. Everybody you’re arguing with has consistently used the word “evidence” and not “facts” when discussing the case. We are fixated on the “evidence” because that is what we have to go on. Evidence is a piece of information that holds varying degrees of accuracy. The phone call would be looked at as fairly accurate account of what was said and when it was said. A Witness statement will hold far less accuracy depending on the nature of what is recalled. No single piece of evidence exonerates Zimmerman. It is the combined group of evidence that is consistent with his account and there is a fair amount of it and it interconnects. I think I can speak for others on this point and it is a very important point. That aside the rest of your post is a rant born out of a complete lack of understanding of the law. Bricker has been very patient with you to his credit but you continually drum up the most poorly thought out legal angles. And as another aside, this is got to be the most childish thing you’ve posted to date. “biatches”? really? You sound like you’ve been drinking. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8446 "2012-11-24T18:13:03Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > If this thread was strictly about the legal technicalities of this case, I’d be stood on my chair applauding you now, but as it isn’t, I’m remaining seated looking distinctly unimpressed with your waffle. I wouldn’t recommend that you stand on any chairs in your present state. This thread revolves around the facts, speculation of events and timelines, post-mortem examination, cuts, bruises, phone calls, eyewitnesses, Florida laws, police action/inaction, lynch-mobs attempting to influence the investigation and the eventual court decision, plus your entertaining demands that people accept your fantasy, interlaced with the occasional cuss word, as fact. Personally, I think a few waffles sound pretty good right about now. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8447 "2012-11-24T18:23:14Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > I wouldn’t recommend that you stand on any chairs in your present state. Lame. My balance after a toke on a joint is nigh on perfect. Are you transfering your own failings onto me, by any chance? > [@doorhinge](#): > > This thread revolves around the facts, speculation of events and timelines, post-mortem examination, cuts, bruises, phone calls, eyewitnesses, Florida laws, police action/inaction, lynch-mobs attempting to influence the investigation and the eventual court decision, plus your entertaining demands that people accept your fantasy, interlaced with the occasional cuss word, as fact. I don’t demand people accept anything. That would be the people who didn’t even think Z’s behaviour warranted further inspection, nevermind him being charged with taking a person’s life, whether due to malice or avoidable stupidity disguised as doing a public good. > [@doorhinge](#): > > Personally, I think a few waffles sound pretty good right about now. I’m more of a crumpet man, myself. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8448 "2012-11-24T18:40:25Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Lame. My balance after a toke on a joint is nigh on perfect. > [@Magiver](#): > > You sound like you’ve been drinking. I was close. TUI ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8449 "2012-11-24T20:09:23Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > No single piece of evidence exonerates Zimmerman. It is the combined group of evidence that is consistent with his account and there is a fair amount of it and it interconnects. I think I can speak for others on this point and it is a very important point. Looks like do we agree on something. But I will change one word here: No single piece of evidence exonerates Zimmerman. It is the combined group of evidence that is \*\*inconsistent \*\*with his account and there is a fair amount of it and it interconnects. I think I can speak for others on this point and it is a very important point. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8450 "2012-11-24T20:12:32Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Looks like do we agree on something. > > But I will change one word here: > > No single piece of evidence exonerates Zimmerman. It is the combined group of evidence that is \*\*inconsistent \*\*with his account and there is a fair amount of it and it interconnects. I think I can speak for others on this point and it is a very important point. Even if that’s true, it’s not a symmetrical system. Any one piece of evidence that provides reasonable doubt can exonerate him. _All_ the evidence (that is believable or relevant) has to point to guilt for him to be found guilty. That said, once again you’re claiming that the evidence is inconsistent with his account, but refusing to say _how_ it is inconsistent. Any chance you’ll give that a go here? ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8451 "2012-11-24T20:28:01Z")
Care to cast your considered opinion on this, **Steophan**? > [@](#): > > Validity of circumstantial evidence > > A popular misconception is that circumstantial evidence is less valid or less important than direct evidence. This is only partly true: direct evidence is popularly, but mistakenly, considered more powerful. Many successful criminal prosecutions rely largely or entirely on circumstantial evidence, and civil charges are frequently based on circumstantial or indirect evidence. Much of the evidence against convicted American bomber Timothy McVeigh was circumstantial, for example. Speaking about McVeigh’s trial, University of Michigan law professor Robert Precht said, “Circumstantial evidence can be, and often is much more powerful than direct evidence”. Is BdlR just pissing into the wind if he thinks he can nail Z with circumstantial evidence? Before you comment, do you want to have a quick listen to Z’s first interview with Det. Singleton, when the events were all pretty fresh in his mind, and before he’d had a chance to juggle his “memories” into a more palatable tale? Go straight to 7:16 [here](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gO74KnH0qdU), listen to what Z is saying, then come back with your excuses. ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8452 "2012-11-24T20:34:48Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Looks like do we agree on something. > > But I will change one word here: > > No single piece of evidence exonerates Zimmerman. It is the combined group of evidence that is \*\*inconsistent \*\*with his account and there is a fair amount of it and it interconnects. I think I can speak for others on this point and it is a very important point. Every element of the Prosecutor’s case has to be proven, or none of it is proven. ---
**Author:** ![dimmy\_derko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@dimmy\_derko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dimmy_derko)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8453 "2012-11-24T20:39:54Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > Every element of the Prosecutor’s case has to be proven, or none of it is proven. Did you miss the law school lesson on circumstantial evidence? There’s a wikipedia quote up above you that gives you the basics. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8454 "2012-11-24T22:21:59Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > This is just incompetence on the part of the prosecutors. How do they know DeeDee and Trayvon cellphone logs even match? It’s obvious the Trayvon cellphone records provided are not the actual phone bill. You think that the phone logs provided are faked? ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8455 "2012-11-24T23:21:29Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > You think that the phone logs provided are faked? You misunderstand. I don’t know if they’re faked or not. I think the phone logs were taken off the family plan, than cut and pasted. The reason for this is because, if you look at the calls there are two calls, one inside the other, without a disconnect. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8456 "2012-11-24T23:26:29Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Did you miss the law school lesson on circumstantial evidence? There’s a wikipedia quote up above you that gives you the basics. Circumstantial evidence was explained to you by Bricker. I’m not sure what think the word means. Most of the evidence is circumstantial and it’s consistent with Zimmerman’s account. There is nothing that directly contradicts his account. This is why I stressed the word “evidence” over the word “fact”. There appears to be some major misconceptions with what has been discussed. That’s not to say the Prosecution doesn’t have something new but we can’t analyze that until it’s made available. 50+ witnesses suggests the Defense has been doing some homework so there will certainly be more to go over when that is made available. ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8457 "2012-11-24T23:37:42Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > You misunderstand. I don’t know if they’re faked or not. I think the phone logs were taken off the family plan, than cut and pasted. The reason for this is because, if you look at the calls there are two calls, one inside the other, without a disconnect. I might add that no one makes phone calls after they’re dead, as Trayvon apparently did. They’d better get Trayvon’s phone logs. and DeeDee’s. ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8458 "2012-11-25T00:45:02Z")
Pardon me for interrupting y’all’s fine argument here, but what the heck is a “nen call”? Googling the term gives plenty of hits on Zimmerman/Martin, but I can’t find anything that actually explains what it means… ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8459 "2012-11-25T01:08:38Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Even if that’s true, it’s not a symmetrical system. Any one piece of evidence that provides reasonable doubt\*\* can \*\*exonerate him. _All_ the evidence (that is believable or relevant) has to point to guilt for him to be found guilty. > > That said, once again you’re claiming that the evidence is inconsistent with his account, but refusing to say _how_ it is inconsistent. Any chance you’ll give that a go here? Glad you’re being civil here. I will return the favor. Sir, I have been giving it a go for the last month. I have talked about the injuries and how they are not consistent with his account–combined with the lack of physical evidence on Martin. I have talked about how it really isn’t likely Martin traveled the distance (circling the truck, etc) Zimmerman said he did. You said something very important here, and I hope you will take the time to read what I say and not get angry or respond with an insult. Here it is: “Any one piece of evidence that provides reasonable doubt\*\* can \*\*exonerate him.” Can?..maybe. Will? maybe not. A jury will look at the totality of evidence–maybe one part might not make sense, but if they get a picture from everything else, that ONE piece might not matter. Also, as I said before, the prosecution may not have to prove every little iota…just as long as they present a solid argument to the jury–THEY DON’T HAVE TO BE PERFECT. I will reiterate, please don’t get too caught up with the second-degree murder charge. There might be a plea, remember. This is very common here in the US. But then again, there might be other evidence that will SOLIDIFY a second degree charge. Please keep an open mind. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8460 "2012-11-25T01:11:32Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > Every element of the Prosecutor’s case has to be proven, or none of it is proven. Define ELEMENT. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8461 "2012-11-25T01:36:45Z")
> [@dimmy\_derko](#): > > Care to cast your considered opinion on this, **Steophan**? > > Is BdlR just pissing into the wind if he thinks he can nail Z with circumstantial evidence? > > Before you comment, do you want to have a quick listen to Z’s first interview with Det. Singleton, when the events were all pretty fresh in his mind, and before he’d had a chance to juggle his “memories” into a more palatable tale? > > Go straight to 7:16 [here](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gO74KnH0qdU), listen to what Z is saying, then come back with your excuses. Thnaks for the link dimmy… [Listen to this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ3Q9cqvnC4&feature=relmfu)… I actually didn’t listen to this until now. Serino was going to work! Listen to the 7:55 mark on…he even concludes that Martin couldn’t have run home in the time allotted–he must have been hiding. I still don’t get some people…why oh why do they buy this “doubling back” nonsense? Why isn’t it conceivable that Martin was hiding? Why? Listen at the 9:25 mark…the female detective also grills him about his BS. And people still support this guy? Why? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8462 "2012-11-25T01:45:35Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > You misunderstand. I don’t know if they’re faked or not. I think the phone logs were taken off the family plan, than cut and pasted. The reason for this is because, if you look at the calls there are two calls, one inside the other, without a disconnect. That’s because while Martin was on the phone with his gf, he got a call from another friend. He switched over to talk to that other caller, and after a few seconds, switched back to DeeDee. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=422) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=424)