# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 430
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8583 "2012-11-28T15:52:34Z")
> [@Redbrow](#): > > George never claimed “he headed straight back to his truck.” He was never ordered or even suggested to go back to his truck. He was never told to stay in his truck. He was under no obligation to run to his truck as fast as he could, jump in, lock the doors, crouch down, close his eyes and cover his ears as soon as the dispatcher informed him ‘we don’t need you to do that’. > > He stated he was walking towards his car just before being assaulted. So what do you think he was doing during the 2 minutes before the fight started and the NEN call ended? You don’t seem to appreciate the implications of this time gap, but I don’t think a jury will be so forgiving. You’re right, Zimmerman was under no legal mandate to immediately head towards his truck. _But that is what he said he did._ He denied following Martin any further. So a reasonable juror is going to wonder why it would take him 2 minutes to traverse the T from the location he said he was. > [@](#): > > And the prosecution’s lead investigator admitted they had no evidence otherwise, to counter Zimmerman’s claim, while on the stand. The prosecution has the timeline that shows that Zimmerman had plenty of time to return to his truck after he got off the phone. When they cross-examine Z, they will ask him to explain what he was doing in the 2 minutes before the fight started. Why would he dawdle in the rain with his thumb up his butt when he knew the cops were coming and didn’t know where to meet him? Zimmmerman will probably say he doesn’t remember. The jury will likely silently laugh at him. > [@](#): > > And how is “dawdling around for 2 minutes” implausible? It is not that long of a timespan for trying to get ones bearings, in order to be prepared for the officers expected arrival at any moment. “Get one’s bearings”? Are you serious? The guy had just busted out of his truck to chase after a suspicious person, but all a sudden he needs time to collect his thoughts and clutch his pearls before meeting some cops that in all likelihood he’s talked to before? This is hilarious. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8584 "2012-11-28T15:52:35Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Angry? there’s no anger in his voice. Sounds like frustration in light of the number of crimes solved in his neighborhood which I’m guessing is pretty low. And it was also muttered and not “announced”. This is so far removed from intent given his actions there is no correlation. he specifically avoids confronting Martin when approached by him. > > Your original premise stated many pages ago that Zimmerman’s departure from the truck is a form of negligence is a pretty big stretch. Are you seriously suggesting that “frustration, not anger” is a factual finding that is so obviously correct that any reasonable listener will reach the same conclusion? You could play the recording to a hundred listeners and they would all agree “frustration” and not “anger” is the best descriptive? If not, then why are you announcing it here in this way? I get it: you, personally, believe it’s frustration. Undoubtedly others do as well. But still others – reasonable people – believe it to be anger. Are they wrong, as a matter of law? ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8585 "2012-11-28T15:54:40Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > **betenoire** is desperately trying to intimate that anyone who thinks his/her views on the Zimmerman matter are laughable are racists. Thus the stupidity above where he/she got his/her panties in a bunch about a correct transcription of DeeDee’s testimony is so hilarious. I am not desperately trying to intimate anything. I am pointing out what _ **is** _. Your response is stupidity. Redbrow actually proved my point as he referred it to as African-American Vernacular. Of course, there’s NOTHING wrong with that. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8586 "2012-11-28T15:57:05Z")
> [@Saraya](#): > > I am aware of the race comments. Ignoring them is the best way to snub the flame; I will have to take my own advice. “Race comment”?? What the hell is a “race comment”? More compound bull? Here go—well I have some advice: if you don’t want people calling them out, then don’t write them. Simple. Yes, take your own advice. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8587 "2012-11-28T16:01:12Z")
> [@Redbrow](#): > > **George never claimed “he headed straight back to his truck.”** He was never ordered or even suggested to go back to his truck. He was never told to stay in his truck. He was under no obligation to run to his truck as fast as he could, jump in, lock the doors, crouch down, close his eyes and cover his ears as soon as the dispatcher informed him ‘we don’t need you to do that’. I hope you realize what you said there. You are absolutely correct that he never claimed he headed “straight back to his truck”–so you do have good listening skills… May I ask what exactly did he need to “get his bearings” from? Following Martin? ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8588 "2012-11-28T16:13:33Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Angry? there’s no anger in his voice. Sounds like frustration in light of the number of crimes solved in his neighborhood which I’m guessing is pretty low. And it was also muttered and not “announced”. This is so far removed from intent given his actions there is no correlation. he specifically avoids confronting Martin when approached by him. > > Your original premise stated many pages ago that Zimmerman’s departure from the truck is a form of negligence is a pretty big stretch. You c an hear Zimmerman’s doors being locked in the background of the 911 call when Martin allegedly approached Zimmerman’s vehicle. A ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8589 "2012-11-28T16:17:55Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > You c an hear Zimmerman’s doors being locked in the background of the 911 call when Martin allegedly approached Zimmerman’s vehicle. A Interesting… ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8590 "2012-11-28T16:25:43Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Angry? there’s no anger in his voice. Sounds like frustration in light of the number of crimes solved in his neighborhood which I’m guessing is pretty low. And it was also muttered and not “announced”. This is so far removed from intent given his actions there is no correlation. he specifically avoids confronting Martin when approached by him. > > Your original premise stated many pages ago that Zimmerman’s departure from the truck is a form of negligence is a pretty big stretch. When Zimmerman said that Martin was near his truck, you can hear the vehicle doors being locked in the background of the dispatcher call. A rational person could conclude that by approaching the vehicle Trayvon wasn’t afraid and had done something to scare Zimmerman, who was forced to lock the vehicle and not the other way around, ie; Zimmerman scaring Martin. You could also conclude that the only reason Martin took off running is because he saw Zimmerman had a phone, apparently more dangerous than a gun to Martin. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8591 "2012-11-28T16:49:15Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > When Zimmerman said that Martin was near his truck, you can hear the vehicle doors being locked in the background of the dispatcher call. A rational person could conclude that by approaching the vehicle Trayvon wasn’t afraid and had done something to scare Zimmerman, who was forced to lock the vehicle and not the other way around, ie; Zimmerman scaring Martin. You could also conclude that the only reason Martin took off running is because he saw Zimmerman had a phone, apparently more dangerous than a gun to Martin. A rational person would conclude none of this because none of its rational. What makes you think Martin “approaching the truck” was deliberate rather than purely incidental to him moving towards his destination? This behavior you’re describing has not been factually established. Zimmerman’s windows were tinted and it was dark outside. But you think the kid was able to make out that Zimmerman was on the phone. Right. If that sound is Zimmerman locking his doors, do you hear the corresponding unlocking sound when he exits the truck? I don’t think so. But go ahead and give it a listen and report back. Martin’s approach towards the truck and his running away were reported as two separate events spaced almost a minute a part. Zimmerman claimed the approach occured at the clubhouse and the running away occurred on Twin Trees Lane. No rational person would think to link these events together and go “A ha! This proves Martin was afraid of Zimmerman’s phone!” ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8592 "2012-11-28T16:49:20Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > When Zimmerman said that Martin was near his truck, you can hear the vehicle doors being locked in the background of the dispatcher call. > > 1. A rational person could conclude that by approaching the vehicle Trayvon wasn’t afraid and had done something to scare Zimmerman, who was forced to lock the vehicle and not the other way around, ie; Zimmerman scaring Martin. > > 2. You could also conclude that the only reason Martin took off running is because he saw Zimmerman had a phone, apparently more dangerous than a gun to Martin. 1. Or Zimmerman parked his car so that Martin really didn’t have a choice but to pass the vehicle. 2. Or maybe Martin took off running because maybe Zimmerman had his gun out. Maybe he took off running because he was afraid. These are possibilities too. ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8593 "2012-11-28T16:51:29Z")
Since it’s difficult to believe that Trayvon couldn’t find shelter from the rain elsewhere, the question has to be asked why was he even at Twin Oaks Road? Brandi Green’s home is on Retreat View, one road to the east. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8594 "2012-11-28T17:07:41Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > **Since it’s difficult to believe that Trayvon couldn’t find shelter from the rain elsewhere,** the question has to be asked why was he even at Twin Oaks Road? Brandi Green’s home is on Retreat View, one road to the east. Why is this difficult to believe? I don’t understand what the implication is here… ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8595 "2012-11-28T18:15:02Z")
> [@Saraya](#): > > This is what the Minnesota case represents to me - _better safe than sorry._ > His admission of shooting more times than necessary just shows he is remorseful and in retrospect, realizes that death may have not been a requirement to resolve the situation. Yeah so remorseful he never reported it to the authorities. He waited until the next day to tell a neighbor. The neighbor called the authorities. > [@](#): > > My real concern is that castle doctrine and SYG have absolutes that should be black and white, but aren’t treated as such. > Ultimately this undermines the purpose of the law. There is no castle doctrine or SYG in Minnesota. The Zimmerman case is sketchy enough with regard to being a justifiable homicide. The Minnesota case is just a horrible example to claim as justifiable homicide. Doing so will do more to set back improvements in Minnesota law than any argument from the opposition. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8596 "2012-11-28T18:45:17Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > Since it’s difficult to believe that Trayvon couldn’t find shelter from the rain elsewhere, the question has to be asked why was he even at Twin Oaks Road? Brandi Green’s home is on Retreat View, one road to the east. He got confused? It is unclear to me how much time he had spent there in total. The development from what I can see in pictures does not consist of distinct housing units, but rather groups of uniform multi unit homes. In the rain, after sunset, the streets undoubtedly begin to look familiar. Where is Twin Oaks Road? Google maps shows 3 streets. 1. Retreat View Circle (as the name implies in encircles the development) 2. Lone Oak Way (a short street) 3. Twin Trees (no designation as road on the map, but seems logical as it has both North-South and East-West segments so neither an avenue or street. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8597 "2012-11-28T19:06:09Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > There is no castle doctrine or SYG in Minnesota. The Zimmerman case is sketchy enough with regard to being a justifiable homicide. The Minnesota case is just a horrible example to claim as justifiable homicide. Doing so will do more to set back improvements in Minnesota law than any argument from the opposition. I wanted to amend that I was just recently informed that there is case law supporting no duty to retreat in one’s own dwelling in Minnesota. I’ll stop with the hijack now. ---
**Author:** ![Saraya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Saraya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saraya)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8598 "2012-11-28T19:10:31Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > So what do you think he was doing during the 2 minutes before the fight started and the NEN call ended? You don’t seem to appreciate the implications of this time gap, but I don’t think a jury will be so forgiving. > > You’re right, Zimmerman was under no legal mandate to immediately head towards his truck. _But that is what he said he did._ He denied following Martin any further. So a reasonable juror is going to wonder why it would take him 2 minutes to traverse the T from the location he said he was. Why would the jury believe he was doing anything but waiting for the police? Two minutes is not that long. A good jury often gives benefit of the doubt in a self defense case. You seem to imply that they should treat Zimmerman with unbridled suspicion. The jury is not the state. > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > The prosecution has the timeline that shows that Zimmerman had plenty of time to return to his truck after he got off the phone. When they cross-examine Z, they will ask him to explain what he was doing in the 2 minutes before the fight started. Why would he dawdle in the rain with his thumb up his butt when he knew the cops were coming and didn’t know where to meet him? Zimmmerman will probably say he doesn’t remember. The jury will likely silently laugh at him. And let them - doesn’t make him guilty of anything but being a slow dummy head. > [@Bricker](#): > > Are you seriously suggesting that “frustration, not anger” is a factual finding that is so obviously correct that any reasonable listener will reach the same conclusion? You could play the recording to a hundred listeners and they would all agree “frustration” and not “anger” is the best descriptive? > > If not, then why are you announcing it here in this way? I get it: you, personally, believe it’s frustration. Undoubtedly others do as well. But still others – reasonable people – believe it to be anger. Are they wrong, as a matter of law? Yes he seriously is, and I also ‘hear’ frustration - primarily because of past events where undesirable things have transpired. If this aspect is to be considered, then the distinction between anger and frustration is important. Anger “Those assholes always get away” (One of them beat up my sister in high school, and I wanted to catch him so I could curb stomp him)[personal] Frustration “Those assholes always get away” (Last week there was a burglarly that we should have been able to stop)[communal] I would see both falling under the umbrella of frustration. The former example leading to an internal related issue he wanted to exert with force onto an external object. The latter represents an opposition of will. > [@Hbns](#): > > Yeah so remorseful he never reported it to the authorities. He waited until the next day to tell a neighbor. The neighbor called the authorities. > For all we know he panicked, both during the shootings and afterwards. He didn’t run tough did he, and he did tell someone. > We take it any further we’re going to start trying to analyze his mentality - not interested..only interested in actions. > There is no castle doctrine or SYG in Minnesota. The Zimmerman case is sketchy enough with regard to being a justifiable homicide. The Minnesota case is just a horrible example to claim as justifiable homicide. Doing so will do more to set back improvements in Minnesota law than any argument from the opposition. Minnesota does have Castle doctrine. I would see it the other way around. A man who is allowed to attack someone unfettered in his own home -regardless of what method or to what extreme - sets an unwaivering precedent that the castle is sacrosanct. Unwarranted persons lose their rights entirely when they break that barrier. The whole point of instating castle doctrine and SYG is to give power back to the law abidizing citizens who become victims or maybe more specifically to take legal power away from criminals. A message like that is expressed no better than by a sign that reads ‘trespassers will be shot, survivors will be shot again’ ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8599 "2012-11-28T20:38:37Z")
> [@Saraya](#): > > Why would the jury believe he was doing anything but waiting for the police? Because that’s not what he said he was doing. If his intent was to wait where he was for the cops, you’d think he’d say that’s what he was doing. But instead he claimed (during the reenactment at least) that he headed towards his truck so that he could meet the cops at the mailbox. > [@](#): > > A good jury often gives benefit of the doubt in a self defense case. You seem to imply that they should treat Zimmerman with unbridled suspicion. > The jury is not the state. The jury is fully entitled to view Zimmerman with suspicion, if they believe he’s lying. > [@](#): > > And let them - doesn’t make him guilty of anything but being a slow dummy head. If you think the only thing a jury could conclude is that Zimmerman was a “slow dummy head”, then maybe you should open your mind a little bit. ---
**Author:** ![Redbrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Redbrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redbrow)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8600 "2012-11-28T21:32:06Z")
There is a simple and objective way to prove where Martin and Zimmerman were at any given time while using their cellphones that evening. Cell tower ping data records. In this day and age, one of the first things that any competent investigator would do is obtain all cell phone records for their client. Martin’s lawyer, Natalie Jackson, stated during an interview that they hired a P.I. who discovered “DeeDee” through Martin’s phone records. This P.I. almost certainly requested ping logs as well. It seems to me that if these records conflicted significantly with Zimmerman’s story, they would have been released to the media by now. I’m sure ping logs will be a big part of the trial, if it even gets that far. ---
**Author:** ![Saraya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Saraya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saraya)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8601 "2012-11-28T21:43:10Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Because that’s not what he said he was doing. If his intent was to wait where he was for the cops, you’d think he’d say that’s what he was doing. But instead he claimed (during the reenactment at least) that he headed towards his truck so that he could meet the cops at the mailbox. Considering his truck is not that far away, I would class ‘hanging around’ and returning to his vehicle to then…further ‘hang around’ as the same thing… > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > The jury is fully entitled to view Zimmerman with suspicion, if they believe he’s lying. Why are they to believe he’s lying? > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > If you think the only thing a jury could conclude is that Zimmerman was a “slow dummy head”, then maybe you should open your mind a little bit. If having an open mind equates immediately to assuming someone is suspicious, I will pass. In that scenario you proposed, you are suggesting the jury is full of Sherlock Holmes’ who on top of of having naturally inquisitive and great detective minds, are ALSO highly suspicious of Zimmerman so that they not only see a falsity in his claims but also that his ‘slow dummy head’ approach is really a masterful ploy to mislead them about his doe-eyed innocence? Objection, conjecture. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8602 "2012-11-28T21:51:35Z")
> [@Saraya](#): > > Considering his truck is not that far away, I would class ‘hanging around’ and returning to his vehicle to then…further ‘hang around’ as the same thing… You must have missed where I wrote “…he headed towards his truck _so that he could meet the cops at the mailbox_.” He specifically said that he was going to leave the area, not hang around idly until the cops called him. > [@](#): > > Why are they to believe he’s lying? Why are they to believe he’s telling the truth? > [@](#): > > In that scenario you proposed, yes. You are suggesting the jury is full of Sherlock Holmes’ who on top of of having naturally inquisitive and great detective minds, are ALSO highly suspicious of Zimmerman so that they not only see a falsity in his claims but also that his ‘slow dummy head’ approach is really a masterful ploy to mislead them about his doe-eyed innocence? It doesn’t take Sherlock Holmes to conclude that Zimmerman spent those 2 minutes looking for Martin. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=429) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=431)