# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 431
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2012, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8603 "2012-11-29T00:48:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Are you seriously suggesting that “frustration, not anger” is a factual finding that is so obviously correct that any reasonable listener will reach the same conclusion? You could play the recording to a hundred listeners and they would all agree “frustration” and not “anger” is the best descriptive? yes Bricker I’m seriously suggesting that. It’s not a hundred listeners that all have to agree, its a group of jurists any of whom can disagree. You’re using an absolutism argument in a situation that only requires one dissenting vote. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2012, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8604 "2012-11-29T01:05:37Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > A rational person would conclude none of this because none of its rational. > > What makes you think Martin “approaching the truck” was deliberate rather than purely incidental to him moving towards his destination? This behavior you’re describing has not been factually established." He told Dee Dee that he was followed by a vehicle which puts him ahead of Zimmerman. Now if you want to postulate that a random car was following Martin and Zimmerman was actually parked in Martin’s living room then yes, it was purely incidental to him moving towards his destination. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2012, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8605 "2012-11-29T02:07:03Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > yes Bricker I’m seriously suggesting that. It’s not a hundred listeners that all have to agree, its a group of jurists any of whom can disagree. You’re using an absolutism argument in a situation that only requires one dissenting vote. Sure. But if we imagine that in a hundred people, we find twelve that don’t agree, then obviously it’s possible that those twelve will be the ones seated as jurors. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2012, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8606 "2012-11-29T02:48:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sure. But if we imagine that in a hundred people, we find twelve that don’t agree, then obviously it’s possible that those twelve will be the ones seated as jurors. Well yes, that certainly falls into the realm of “anything is possible”. jury of 12? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2012, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8607 "2012-11-29T02:57:31Z")
> [@Redbrow](#): > > There is a simple and objective way to prove where Martin and Zimmerman were at any given time while using their cellphones that evening. Cell tower ping data records. > > In this day and age, one of the first things that any competent investigator would do is obtain all cell phone records for their client. Martin’s lawyer, Natalie Jackson, stated during an interview that they hired a P.I. who discovered “DeeDee” through Martin’s phone records. This P.I. almost certainly requested ping logs as well. It seems to me that if these records conflicted significantly with Zimmerman’s story, they would have been released to the media by now. > > I’m sure ping logs will be a big part of the trial, if it even gets that far. What is the level of precision for these? This says w/in miles or w/in hundreds of meters. [http://educatedevidence.com/Viewpoint\_J-F.pdf](http://educatedevidence.com/Viewpoint_J-F.pdf) Doesn’t sound all that helpful, imho. Snopes says w/in several square miles > **[Cell Phone Location Feature](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/i-ping-the-body-electric/)** > > Enabling your cell phone's 'location' feature can assist searchers in finding you? Is there some newer more precise measurement available? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2012, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8608 "2012-11-29T03:18:31Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > What is the level of precision for these? > This says w/in miles or w/in hundreds of meters. > [http://educatedevidence.com/Viewpoint\_J-F.pdf](http://educatedevidence.com/Viewpoint_J-F.pdf) > Doesn’t sound all that helpful, imho. > > Snopes says w/in several square miles > [Cell Phone Location Feature | Snopes.com](http://www.snopes.com/crime/prevent/cellping.asp) > Is there some newer more precise measurement available? cell towers probably measure signal strength to determine which tower takes the call but that’s not a directional measurement. I suppose if there is a GPS chip in the phone and it was set up to transmit it’s location then it would be down to feet. Even then you wouldn’t know the accuracy unless it included the number of satellites used. ---
**Author:** ![Redbrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Redbrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redbrow)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2012, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8609 "2012-11-29T03:46:05Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > What is the level of precision for these? > This says w/in miles or w/in hundreds of meters. > [http://educatedevidence.com/Viewpoint\_J-F.pdf](http://educatedevidence.com/Viewpoint_J-F.pdf) > Doesn’t sound all that helpful, imho. > > Snopes says w/in several square miles > [Cell Phone Location Feature | Snopes.com](http://www.snopes.com/crime/prevent/cellping.asp) > Is there some newer more precise measurement available? You must have missed the part of that snopes article that discusses Enhanced 9-1-1. Current FCC standards require accuracy within 50 to 300 meters or better. Martin’s phone, a T Mobile Comet, is GPS equipped. ---
**Author:** ![Redbrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Redbrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redbrow)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2012, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8610 "2012-11-29T04:03:47Z")
Here are some ping logs from the Casey anthony case. They show 7 decimal place GPS coordinates. 7 decimal places GPS for longitude and latitude pinpoints to within a radius of 100mm or a tiny bit less 4 inches. [https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AhljbqYfJiUkcDZQbnc5NXZxT28tTWdaN1ZzcDlwWWc&gid=10](https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AhljbqYfJiUkcDZQbnc5NXZxT28tTWdaN1ZzcDlwWWc&gid=10) Here are a few known tower locations near the Retreat at Twin Lakes in Sanford. There are probably several more that are not listed. [![](https://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac218/Uther2/Working%20Uploads%202/PingMap1.jpg) ](https://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac218/Uther2/Working%20Uploads%202/PingMap1.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2012, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8611 "2012-11-29T11:53:24Z")
> [@Redbrow](#): > > You must have missed the part of that snopes article that discusses Enhanced 9-1-1. Current FCC standards require accuracy within 50 to 300 meters or better. Martin’s phone, a T Mobile Comet, is GPS equipped. I am not sure that w/in 50 meters is much more accurate than what we have already. The block is something like 200ft / 65m across iirc. But thanks for the more info > [@Redbrow](#): > > Here are some ping logs from the Casey anthony case. They show 7 decimal place GPS coordinates. 7 decimal places GPS for longitude and latitude pinpoints to within a radius of 100mm or a tiny bit less 4 inches. > [https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AhljbqYfJiUkcDZQbnc5NXZxT28tTWdaN1ZzcDlwWWc&gid=10](https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AhljbqYfJiUkcDZQbnc5NXZxT28tTWdaN1ZzcDlwWWc&gid=10) So her phone did not move more than 4 inches between some of the calls? And what’s more, later in the day she was able to put her phone back in the same 4 inch radius to make another call? Or are we seeing the location of towers and not the location of the phone? > [@Redbrow](#): > > Here are a few known tower locations near the Retreat at Twin Lakes in Sanford. There are probably several more that are not listed. > [http://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac218/Uther2/Working%20Uploads%202/PingMap1.jpg](http://i901.photobucket.com/albums/ac218/Uther2/Working%20Uploads%202/PingMap1.jpg) What I had read earlier said that the phone choses by signal strength, which may or may not be the same as the closest tower. ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2012, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8612 "2012-11-29T15:44:50Z")
GPS seems to work well. I went to a wake, and despite not knowing the area, it lead me directly to his widow’s driveway, despite having to make numerous turns. Even if you couldn’t get an exact fix, ping logs certainly should be able to indicate if someone moved a distance, which could be important in this case. Casey Anthony’s cellphone likely didn’t move because she kept it in the same place. switching to another cell tower would give you a different reading. I feel that since they have Zimmerman’s cell phone, they should get Martin’s info off his and compare the two. as an example, it might help to explain Martin’s slow return from the 7=11 when some posters on other boards in the Sanford area claim it;s walkable in ten, and DD claimed he ran back. While not necessarily critical to the case, it could point to the veracity of some of the claims made in this case. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2012, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8613 "2012-11-29T18:28:03Z")
> [@Redbrow](#): > > You must have missed the part of that snopes article that discusses Enhanced 9-1-1. Current FCC standards require accuracy within 50 to 300 meters or better. Martin’s phone, a T Mobile Comet, is GPS equipped. As far as I know Martin never called 911, so we wouldn’t have any GPS info on his location. I think the phone signal strength may be recorded in the phone company records, but I doubt that is precise enough to be useful. Some other countries have less privacy restrictions, so some countries have solved crimes by finding all the phones in the correct location. American police solved a series of bank robberies by subpoenaing all the phones close to each bank when the robbery occurred. then they found a phone close to all the banks when the robberies occurred ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2012, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8614 "2012-11-29T18:44:18Z")
> [@Redbrow](#): > > Here are some ping logs from the Casey anthony case. They show 7 decimal place GPS coordinates. 7 decimal places GPS for longitude and latitude pinpoints to within a radius of 100mm or a tiny bit less 4 inches. > [https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AhljbqYfJiUkcDZQbnc5NXZxT28tTWdaN1ZzcDlwWWc&gid=10](https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AhljbqYfJiUkcDZQbnc5NXZxT28tTWdaN1ZzcDlwWWc&gid=10) I think you need to learn the difference between **resolution** and **accuracy**. I used to work in the metrology. You learn to ignore digits the don’t contain significant information. The basic accuracy on GPS is around 10 meters.There as enhanced GPS where the data is supplemented by ground stations, where they can detect locations to inches. ---
**Author:** ![Redbrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Redbrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redbrow)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2012, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8615 "2012-11-29T21:22:50Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I think you need to learn the difference between **resolution** and **accuracy**. I used to work in the metrology. You learn to ignore digits the don’t contain significant information. > > The basic accuracy on GPS is around 10 meters.There as enhanced GPS where the data is supplemented by ground stations, where they can detect locations to inches. I never purported to know the accuracy of the network in question, I merely posted the court admissible evidence from the Casey trial. Do you know with certainty, the accuracy of the network in question? I think you need to learn to post links to back up your assertions. Cell companies are constantly updating and improving their networks using proprietary versions of AGPS and DGPS and do not rely on standard GPS alone. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2012, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8616 "2012-11-29T22:53:16Z")
> [@Redbrow](#): > > I never purported to know the accuracy of the network in question, I merely posted the court admissible evidence from the Casey trial. Do you know with certainty, the accuracy of the network in question? I think you need to learn to post links to back up your assertions. > > Cell companies are constantly updating and improving their networks using proprietary versions of AGPS and DGPS and do not rely on standard GPS alone. I checked on cellphone location systems and they seem to be oriented to acquiring a position more rapidly and using less power and working indoors rather than a more accurate location. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced\_GPS](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_GPS) My smartphone is arriving tomorrow. I’ll do some experiments. It seems possible that they could set up cell phone towers to supply differential GPS corrections. My Tablet was hunting a lot when I turned it on, but it looks like it is within a few meters. I remember my old car GPS would sometimes put my car on an adjacent street. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2012, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8617 "2012-12-01T16:48:12Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I checked on cellphone location systems and they seem to be oriented to acquiring a position more rapidly and using less power and working indoors rather than a more accurate location. > > [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced\_GPS](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_GPS) > > My smartphone is arriving tomorrow. I’ll do some experiments. It seems possible that they could set up cell phone towers to supply differential GPS corrections. My Tablet was hunting a lot when I turned it on, but it looks like it is within a few meters. I remember my old car GPS would sometimes put my car on an adjacent street. Checking the Maps app, the best result I got on my location was done to a few meters. The uncertainty and the actual location varied a lot. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2012, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8618 "2012-12-01T16:50:53Z")
[http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-11-30/news/os-george-zimmerman-jose-baez-serino-20121130\_1\_sanford-cops-special-prosecutor-angela-corey-george-zimmerman](http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-11-30/news/os-george-zimmerman-jose-baez-serino-20121130_1_sanford-cops-special-prosecutor-angela-corey-george-zimmerman) There is interesting speculation about why Serino thinks he needs an attorney to represent him. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2012, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8619 "2012-12-01T18:16:40Z")
[http://gzlegalcase.com/index.php/court-documents/66-motion-to-compel-production-of-evidence-from-third-party](http://gzlegalcase.com/index.php/court-documents/66-motion-to-compel-production-of-evidence-from-third-party) The interesting part is the 2nd footnote on page 1. It turns out that DeeDee is 18 years old and not a minor. ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2012, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8620 "2012-12-01T18:25:50Z")
According to motions recently filed, Crump has yet to turn over, despite repeated attempts by the defense, the actual DeeDee recording. The defense claims the copy they recieved is almost unintelligible, half the real length, and heavily edited. The prosecution appears disinteresting in doing anything about the request. Apparently DeeDee is actually 18 years old, not 16 like Crump claimed. Since the prosecution has been lax in turning over exculpatory evidence from witnesses and the FBI, according to the filed motions, plus Crump’s shinanigans, This case is beginning to take on a unhealthy aroma. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2012, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8621 "2012-12-01T22:16:23Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > According to motions recently filed, Crump has yet to turn over, despite repeated attempts by the defense, the actual DeeDee recording. The defense claims the copy they recieved is almost unintelligible, half the real length, and heavily edited. The prosecution appears disinteresting in doing anything about the request. Apparently DeeDee is actually 18 years old, not 16 like Crump claimed. Since the prosecution has been lax in turning over exculpatory evidence from witnesses and the FBI, according to the filed motions, plus Crump’s shinanigans, This case is beginning to take on a unhealthy aroma. The language that the defense in footnote 14 on page 8 of the motion is pretty strong. [http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/1112/motion\_to\_compel.pdf](http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/1112/motion_to_compel.pdf) I think Don West wrote this motion. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2012, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8622 "2012-12-01T22:39:02Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > The language that the defense in footnote 14 on page 8 of the motion is pretty strong. > > [http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/1112/motion\_to\_compel.pdf](http://184.172.211.159/~gzdocs/documents/1112/motion_to_compel.pdf) > > I think Don West wrote this motion. If the accusations in that footnote are true, and there’s certainly no reason to doubt them, it’s clear that the state and the prosecution are attempting to deny Zimmerman a fair trial. Hopefully there will be a judge involved with the balls to throw this case out, and it will be possible to charge the prosecution with some form of obstructing justice. Not that that’s likely with elected judges and prosecutors. They want Zimmerman convicted no matter what, for the sake of their popularity, and if they can’t get that, they want to drag it out as long as possible in the hope that, if he’s (correctly) acquitted, it will have been forgotten about. Any of the people who’ve been condemning the police investigation as inadequate want to comment on the prosecution’s deliberate hindering of the investigation? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=430) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=432)