# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 432
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8623 "2012-12-02T12:47:50Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > …it’s clear that the state and the prosecution are attempting to deny Zimmerman a fair trial. > … the prosecution’s deliberate hindering of the investigation? Conspiracy before cock-up? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8624 "2012-12-02T17:11:29Z")
The indictment was partly based on new information related to a friend of Martin’s. That has to be Dee Dee. The Prosecution bypassed the Grand Jury in the process and is now stalling on the release of this evidence. It’s not like they have a choice to turn it over. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8625 "2012-12-02T17:49:42Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > Conspiracy before cock-up? Yes, assuming the claims in the motion are true. They’ve been repeatedly instructed to release the evidence that they’re required to, and have refused. Did you read the motion the defence filed? It’s quite short, and doesn’t seem to be particularly open to interpretation. Although, really, it’s conspiracy _after_ cock-up, the cock-up being charging him in the first place without sufficient evidence. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8626 "2012-12-02T23:20:51Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > If the accusations in that footnote are true, and there’s certainly no reason to doubt them, **it’s clear that the state and the prosecution are attempting to deny Zimmerman a fair trial.** Hopefully there will be a judge involved with the balls to throw this case out, and it will be possible to charge the prosecution with some form of obstructing justice. > > Not that that’s likely with elected judges and prosecutors. They want Zimmerman convicted no matter what, for the sake of their popularity, and if they can’t get that, they want to drag it out as long as possible in the hope that, if he’s (correctly) acquitted, it will have been forgotten about. > > Any of the people who’ve been condemning the police investigation as inadequate want to comment on the prosecution’s deliberate hindering of the investigation? Nice, logical conclusion. Since the defense believes the State should have already subpoenaed Crump to turn over his private property, this means they are attempting to deny Zimmerman a fair trial. Furthermore, the elected judges and prosecutors (who remain unnamed :rolleyes:) want Zimmerman convicted no matter what. Flawless. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8627 "2012-12-02T23:37:39Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Nice, logical conclusion. > > Since the defense believes the State should have already subpoenaed Crump to turn over his private property, this means they are attempting to deny Zimmerman a fair trial. > > Furthermore, the elected judges and prosecutors (who remain unnamed :rolleyes:) want Zimmerman convicted no matter what. > > Flawless. what do you mean unnamed? Circuit Judge Debra Nelson already ruled the the recording be brought to the deposition hearing. We know who heads the Prosecution. It’s Angela Corey. This isn’t some obscure procedural mistake, it’s a big deal to withhold evidence from the defense. It’s mistrial big. And if the Defense’s label is correct Dee Dee is the States’ star witness. The indictment and the trial hinge on her testimony. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8628 "2012-12-02T23:47:02Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > what do you mean unnamed? Circuit Judge Debra Nelson already ruled the the recording be brought to the deposition hearing. We know who heads the Prosecution. It’s Angela Corey. > > This isn’t some obscure procedural mistake, it’s a big deal to withhold evidence from the defense. It’s mistrial big. And if the Defense’s label is correct Dee Dee is the States’ star witness. The indictment and the trial hinge on her testimony. And how do you know that these elected judges and officials want Zimmerman convicted “no matter what”? How do you know they just aren’t doing their jobs against someone who they feel is guilty as sin? Why is there always this hinting that there are other motives except for a duty to uphold the law? And then you have people always presenting this crap about appeasing people, “lynch mobs” “race-\_\_\_\_\_” --shit straight out of the Turner Diaries. Then they want to turn around and say I’m the one presenting bizarre theories–laughable. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8629 "2012-12-03T00:16:27Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > How do you know they just aren’t doing their jobs against someone who they feel is guilty as sin? Wow. you don’t even realize how seriously warped this statement is. Trials are not based on how a Judge “feels” about things. They are set up to ensure procedures are followed so that the law is upheld. > [@betenoire39](#): > > Why is there always this hinting that there are other motives except for a duty to uphold the law? There isn’t always being hinted at. It has been rarely discussed in this thread. It’s being brought up now because the law is being ignored. > [@betenoire39](#): > > And then you have people always presenting this crap about appeasing people, “lynch mobs” “race-\_\_\_\_\_” --shit straight out of the Turner Diaries. Who is always presenting this? ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8630 "2012-12-03T00:21:42Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Wow. you don’t even realize how seriously warped this statement is. > > \*\*Trials are not based on how a Judge “feels” about things. They are set up to ensure procedures are followed so that the law is upheld. \*\* > > There isn’t always being hinted at. It has been rarely discussed in this thread. It’s being brought up now because the law is being ignored. > > Who is always presenting this? What an empty meaningless statement—look up the word “feel”–I already went over this with another poster here. Again, how do you know these people are not just doing their jobs (rather than some bloodlust against Zimmerman)? What laws are being ignored? Don’t give me some crap– **NAME THEM.** And NAME who is ignoring them. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8631 "2012-12-03T00:35:16Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Who is always presenting this? The same ones who I have been going back and forth with. The same people I have been calling out. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8632 "2012-12-03T00:48:34Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > What an empty meaningless statement—look up the word “feel”–I already went over this with another poster here. There is nothing meaningless about a judge following the rules without injecting his or her feelings into the process. > [@betenoire39](#): > > Again, how do you know these people are not just doing their jobs (rather than some bloodlust against Zimmerman) because the information that was legal due the Defense has not been made available. > [@betenoire39](#): > > What laws are being ignored? Don’t give me some crap– **NAME THEM.** And NAME who is ignoring them. [Discovery](http://evidence.uslegal.com/discovery/florida-discovery-law/). By law a prosecutor has to turn over everything to the defense. And it’s the judge and the prosecutor I already named who are ignoring it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8633 "2012-12-03T00:52:18Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > The same ones who I have been going back and forth with. > > The same people I have been calling out. so no names and of course, no cites to back up your claims of "people always presenting this crap about appeasing people, “lynch mobs” “race-\_\_\_\_\_” --shit. you’re running your mouth with nothing to support it. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8634 "2012-12-03T01:25:31Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > so no names and of course, no cites to back up your claims of "people always presenting this crap about appeasing people, “lynch mobs” “race-\_\_\_\_\_” --shit. > > you’re running your mouth with nothing to support it. Saraya and Shodan with the race-\_\_\_\_ bullcrap. Steophan with the talk about lynch mobs and appeasement. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8635 "2012-12-03T01:29:25Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > 1. There is nothing meaningless about a judge following the rules without injecting his or her feelings into the process. > > 2. because the information that was legal due the Defense has not been made available. > > [Discovery](http://evidence.uslegal.com/discovery/florida-discovery-law/). By law a prosecutor has to turn over everything to the defense. And it’s the judge and the prosecutor I already named who are ignoring it. 1. My goodness. Let’s go slowly. Steophan wrote: “**Not that that’s likely with elected judges and prosecutors. They want Zimmerman convicted no matter what, for the sake of their popularity, and if they can’t get that, they want to drag it out as long as possible in the hope that, if he’s (correctly) acquitted, it will have been forgotten about.**” To which I responded: "And how do you know that these elected judges and officials want Zimmerman convicted “no matter what”? How do you know they just aren’t doing their jobs against someone who they feel is guilty as sin?" Ok. This was what prompted the exchange. Again, how do you know they are doing it because they are elected and not because they are upholding the law? 1. What was the timetable? How do you know all the procedures for Discovery weren’t followed (if that is to be applied here)? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8636 "2012-12-03T01:44:56Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Saraya and Shodan with the race-\_\_\_\_ bullcrap. > > Steophan with the talk about lynch mobs and appeasement. You made a state that said people always presenting this crap… either post some cites that this has been even a tiny part of the 170+ pages of discussion or admit your statement was overblown hyperbole. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8637 "2012-12-03T02:24:55Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Again, how do you know they are doing it because they are elected and not because they are upholding the law? Well, because if the accusations are true, ignoring the law is a damn funny way to uphold it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8638 "2012-12-03T02:33:07Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > 1. My goodness. Let’s go slowly. > > Steophan wrote: > “**Not that that’s likely with elected judges and prosecutors. They want Zimmerman convicted no matter what, for the sake of their popularity, and if they can’t get that, they want to drag it out as long as possible in the hope that, if he’s (correctly) acquitted, it will have been forgotten about.**” > > To which I responded: > > "And how do you know that these elected judges and officials want Zimmerman convicted “no matter what”? > > How do you know they just aren’t doing their jobs against someone who they feel is guilty as sin?" > > Ok. This was what prompted the exchange. > > Again, how do you know they are doing it because they are elected and not because they are upholding the law? > > 1. What was the timetable? How do you know all the procedures for Discovery weren’t followed (if that is to be applied here)? The timetable was listed in the cite given. The recording was made April 2nd and they’ve made multiple formal requests starting August 23rd for the information as well as court intervention. it’s not rocket science for the State to take possession of the recording device and accurately duplicate the information. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8639 "2012-12-03T05:00:55Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Again, how do you know they are doing it because they are elected and not because they are upholding the law? Because there is either insufficient evidence to charge Zimmerman, or they haven’t released evidence that would show him guilty. Charging him under either of those circumstances is illegal. As the defence have repeatedly asked for the release of evidence they claim to have, and they’ve refused, it’s not a simple mistake. They are breaking the law in an attempt to punish someone they suspect - but can’t prove - is a criminal. And you wonder why I compare them to lynch mobs? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8640 "2012-12-03T05:37:48Z")
From this recent motion by O’Mara - interesting information. Apparently prosecution has been sitting on reports from witnesses taken month ago by FBI where the witnesses say that they can identify Zimmerman’s voice as the one screaming for help on the tapes. The prosecution provided these reports to defense only recently, way _after_ telling the judge that the defense received “everything”. Apparently the same reports mention further witnesses whose testimony still has not been provided to defense, in spite of the law requiring prosecution to disclose all evidence they have. O’Mara says he will file a separate motion demanding that evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8641 "2012-12-03T08:29:16Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Because there is either insufficient evidence to charge Zimmerman, or they haven’t released evidence that would show him guilty. Charging him under either of those circumstances is illegal. Interestingly in Minnesota there was recently a high profile case dismissed when it came before the Judge for lack of probable cause. Of course this didn’t happen until many months after the individual had been arrested, charged, and accumulated substantial attorney fees. Similarly to this case the Prosecutor declined to convene a grand jury. Unfortunately it sounds like there isn’t a lot of recourse for the accused to recover the attorney fees. Not to mention the reputation that is forever tainted. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2012, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8642 "2012-12-03T14:14:11Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > There is nothing meaningless about a judge following the rules without injecting his or her feelings into the process. > > because the information that was legal due the Defense has not been made available. > > [Discovery](http://evidence.uslegal.com/discovery/florida-discovery-law/). By law a prosecutor has to turn over everything to the defense. And it’s the judge and the prosecutor I already named who are ignoring it. That link explains Florida’s civil discovery rules, and is applicable to civil cases in Florida; the link quotes Florida’s rules of civil procedure. This is a criminal case. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=431) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=433)