# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 444
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8863 "2012-12-06T21:07:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Whether he wins or loses the SYG hearing will depend entirely on the judge’s perception of him as truthful. There’s no question that his testimony can support a finding of justifiable use of deadly force – will the judge who hears it find it credible? True. And of course our good George has a \*slight \*problem with credibility. He has no problems lying to the court. None. Doesn’t help that the creators of SYG spoke out against him (not sure if that’s relevant here, but it’s worth mentioning). But at the same time, isn’t true that Zimmerman has to establish that he committed NO OTHER crime during the course of the encounter? ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8864 "2012-12-06T21:09:00Z")
I would imagine a client like this would be a nightmare for any defense lawyer. Just curious:\*\* Bricker,\*\* how would you deal with a guy like that? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8865 "2012-12-06T21:09:25Z")
Losing the SYG hearing shouldn’t have any effect on the outcome of the trial. That the evidence doesn’t prove his innocence says nothing about whether it can prove his guilt. I’ve said several times I think it’s unlikely he’ll win the hearing. But unlikely is not impossible, and given that winning it would end the whole thing, there’s no reason not to go for it. ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8866 "2012-12-06T21:10:05Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I think Zimmerman is firmly convinced of his own innocence, and has been from day one. That’s why he (foolishly) agreed to be interviewed, why he agreed to the reenactment, and I would bet why he won’t take a plea. He feels he didn’t do anything wrong, and not in a calculating “You can’t prove anything, copper” way but in a “it happened like I have been saying since day one” way. > > That’s why he wasn’t even slightly flustered when the investigator suggested that the fight might have been videotaped by someone. Zimmerman said ‘I hope to God it was’ or words to that effect. > > That’s why I don’t think he is lying, even in the parts not backed up by evidence. He feels no need to lie. His recollections are as mixed as might be expected after a traumatic incident, but there is no hint of calculated lying. > > ‘I saw a suspicious character. I followed him for a bit, but then I lost him. Then when I was waiting for the police, he came back and attacked me. I was in fear for my life, so I shot him.’ That’s his story, and he has stuck to it since the outset. And all the evidence backs him up. > > Regards, > Shodan Actually, at that point in time, Zimmerman would have no idea if witness or witnesses had seen the whole thing. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8867 "2012-12-06T21:16:16Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > **Losing the SYG hearing shouldn’t have any effect on the outcome of the trial.** That the evidence doesn’t prove his innocence says nothing about whether it can prove his guilt. > > I’ve said several times I think it’s unlikely he’ll win the hearing. But unlikely is not impossible, and given that winning it would end the whole thing, there’s no reason not to go for it. I love these pronouncements…especially considering that \*\*Bricker \*\*JUST SAID that stuff he says WILL BE ADMISSIBLE. oh well. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8868 "2012-12-06T21:31:47Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > ‘I saw a suspicious character. I followed him for a bit, but then I lost him. Then when I was waiting for the police, he came back and attacked me. I was in fear for my life, so I shot him.’ Let me fix that for you: “I saw a person walking down the sidewalk and I decided he was a suspicious character. I follow him for a bit, but then I lost him. Then, when I went looking for him, I found him. We got into a fist-fight and I was losing, so I shot him.” ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8869 "2012-12-06T21:33:09Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > Actually, at that point in time, Zimmerman would have no idea if witness or witnesses had seen the whole thing. Not the whole thing, true. But he yelled to one of the witnesses for help, so he was aware that at least one person saw part of it. But that is part of my point - Zimmerman showed zero concern that someone might have videotaped it, or if someone saw the whole thing from the beginning. Because he was and is sure that whatever evidence comes up will back up his story. Which, by and large, it does. If he were conscious of deceit, he would react with worry. It’s a pretty standard interrogation technique - put the subject under stress that something might come up to contradict his story, and see if he changes anything. Zimmerman didn’t do that. He’s telling the story as he recalls it. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8870 "2012-12-06T21:35:21Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Let me fix that for you: > > “I saw a person walking down the sidewalk and I decided he was a suspicious character. I follow him for a bit, but then I lost him. Then, when I went looking for him, I found him. We got into a fist-fight and I was losing, so I shot him.” There is no evidence for the part where Zimmerman found him. You are misstating how the fight started - they didn’t “get into” a fistfight, Martin attacked Zimmerman with his fists. The part where Zimmerman was losing is certainly true. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8871 "2012-12-06T21:50:12Z")
No evidence that Zimmerman found Martin? Then how did the bullet from Zimmerman’s gun get into Martin’s chest? You keep floating the complete speculation that Zimmerman was innocently standing around minding his own business when Martin \*\*\*came back \*\*\*to attack him. There’s every bit as much evidence that Martin was standing still somewhere when Zimmerman happened upon him. At that point, I have no clue how a fight might have started, but I venture to guess that several quarts of adrenaline pumping through two bodies probably had a lot to do with it. It’s Twilight Zone. You’re essentially accusing Martin of stalking Zimmerman when it was Zimmerman who got out of his car to go find Martin. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8872 "2012-12-06T21:52:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, we have evidence that Zimmerman committed a crime – the crime of manslaughter. > > I have previously laid out the elements of manslaughter and explained how a reasonable finder of fact could conclude that Zimmerman meets each and every one of those elements. I will be happy to do so again. > > Now, we certainly don’t have a slam-dunk case. A reasonable finder of fact could also conclude he’s not guilty. But on the evidence we know about, a jury could convict and have that conviction sustained on appeal. If I remember correctly you based that on the fact that Zimmerman had reason to fear Martin and therefore should not have left his vehicle in the possession of a gun because he might be called to use such a weapon if confronted by someone he believed to pose a threat. The argument is weak on a number of fronts. -Zimmerman already demonstrated a desire to avoid direct confrontation. -His vehicle does not afford any real protection if Martin is armed so exiting it changes little in the argument he should have remained in it. -He showed great restraint in the use of the gun in the fight -In Florida he is expressly granted the right to defend himself. He has a right to travel in the neighborhood unfettered with no duty to retreat because it’s possible there is someone who might do him harm. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8873 "2012-12-06T21:55:20Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > No evidence that Zimmerman found Martin? Then how did the bullet from Zimmerman’s gun get into Martin’s chest? It got there because Martin went back to the location he ran from and attacked Zimmerman who then defended himself. It could just as easily have occurred where Zimmerman was parked. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8874 "2012-12-06T22:01:21Z")
Bullshit. Zimmerman went looking Martin, not the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8875 "2012-12-06T22:01:47Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > . There’s every bit as much evidence that Martin was standing still somewhere when Zimmerman happened upon him. At that point, I have no clue how a fight might have started, but I venture to guess that several quarts of adrenaline pumping through two bodies probably had a lot to do with it. > . According to both accounts they lost sight of each other. Zimmerman is on the phone talking to the police while he’s walking along the sidewalk. Martin has to be able to hear this regardless of where he’s at in the backyard area. Zimmerman on the other hand is not going to be able to hear Martin because according to Dee Dee Martin has lowered his voice. ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8876 "2012-12-06T22:02:51Z")
[quote=“Shodan, post:8870, topic:619125”] There is no evidence for the part where Zimmerman found him. You are misstating how the fight started - they didn’t “get into” a fistfight, Martin attacked Zimmerman with his fists. The part where Zimmerman was losing is certainly true. Regards, Shodan[/QUOTE I just watched a video of the area, available on Youtube. It would have been quicker forTrayvon to have entered from the south side, after his trip to the 7-11,where Brandi’s home was located, so what was he doing near the clubhouse? Problem number two, the mail kiosk was enclosed, with a door. How could Zimmerman ever have seen him if he was in there? Problem number three, Trayvon couldn’t be folowed by vehicle if Trayvon didn’t want to be, since he could simply have ducked where townhouses were separated. When Zimmerman first parked his vehicle even before Zimerman said “he ran”, Trayvon could have been long gone. Why would he even approach the truck to check Zimmerman out? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8877 "2012-12-06T22:02:56Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Bullshit. Zimmerman went looking Martin, not the other way around. That’s not what the evidence shows. Zimmerman is still on the sidewalk when the confrontation starts. ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8878 "2012-12-06T22:18:43Z")
[quote=“Magiver, post:8877, topic:619125”] That’s not what the evidence shows. Zimmerman is still on the sidewalk when the confrontation starts.[/QUOT The amazing thing is that 4 minutes after Trayvon ran or walked or whatever, he was still at the T. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8879 "2012-12-06T22:21:56Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > No evidence that Zimmerman found Martin? Then how did the bullet from Zimmerman’s gun get into Martin’s chest? Zimmerman shot Martin after Martin attacked him. > [@](#): > > You keep floating the complete speculation that Zimmerman was innocently standing around minding his own business when Martin \*\*\*came back \*\*\*to attack him. Not according to Dee Dee’s testimony. We’ve been over this. Zimmerman started following Martin but lost him. Zimmerman says he lost sight of Martin, and Dee Dee says Martin told her that he lost sight of Zimmerman, and that he (Martin) was next to Brandi’s house. Then Martin came back from Brandi’s house looking for Zimmerman. According to Dee Dee, Martin came back, spotted Zimmerman, said to him “why are you following me” or words to that effect, Zimmerman said “what are you up to” or something similar, and then Dee Dee heard the “bump” that apparently started the fight. [QUOTE=hmarvin] It would have been quicker for Trayvon to have entered from the south side, after his trip to the 7-11, where Brandi’s home was located, so what was he doing near the clubhouse? [/QUOTE] I thought he was trying to get out of the rain. > [@](#): > > Problem number two, the mail kiosk was enclosed, with a door. How could Zimmerman ever have seen him if he was in there? I think Zimmerman saw Martin after he left the mail kiosk, since he described Martin as wandering around as if he was casing houses for a robbery. So apparently Martin had left the mail kiosk by then. > [@](#): > > When Zimmerman first parked his vehicle even before Zimerman said “he ran”, Trayvon could have been long gone. Why would he even approach the truck to check Zimmerman out? To confront Zimmerman. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8880 "2012-12-06T22:28:55Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > ``` > I just watched a video of the area, available on Youtube. It would have been quicker forTrayvon to have entered from the south side, after his trip to the 7-11,where Brandi's home was located, so what was he doing near the clubhouse? > > ``` That video is crap then. > [@hmarvin](#): > > Problem number two, the mail kiosk was enclosed, with a door. No it’s not. > [@hmarvin](#): > > Problem number three, Trayvon couldn’t be folowed by vehicle if Trayvon didn’t want to be, since he could simply have ducked where townhouses were separated. He did. That’s when Z got out of his vehicle. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2012, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8881 "2012-12-06T22:38:10Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Doesn’t help that the creators of SYG spoke out against him (not sure if that’s relevant here, but it’s worth mentioning). Cite that they spoke out **against** him. [I think](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15699525&postcount=7568) you are falsely assuming this from some experts stating that this isn’t a SYG case. By which they mean it is a simple self defense case. Oh wait, look here, you already did admit this was the case. > [@betenoire39](#): > > Again, even the founders of the law spoke out about this on national TV–they said it doesn’t apply to Zimmerman. > > Also, i am well aware that they say it’s a simple self-defense case rather than a SYG–well aware. ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8882 "2012-12-07T00:30:08Z")
Don’t know if this has been posted before 7:09.34=Z calls Sanford police 7:17.10=shot fired 7:18.10=Officer Smith arrives takes custody of Z (it was that close) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=443) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=445)