# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 445
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8883 "2012-12-07T01:31:03Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > But at the same time, isn’t true that Zimmerman has to establish that he committed NO OTHER crime during the course of the encounter? No. All Zimmerman has to establish is that he used deadly force in a reasonable effort to prevent imminent death, great bodily harm, or the commission of a “forcible felony,” per § 776.013(1). ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8884 "2012-12-07T01:43:01Z")
On August 26, 2006, John Dorsey attended a keg party. After exchanging harsh words with other guests, including John Lott and Bo Bunting. Dorsey had his hand in his pocket, and it appeared to witnesses that a confrontation was imminent. One witness claimed that Dorsey was smirking as he was leaning against his vehicle and that he did not appear to be afraid. Lott and Dorsey began cursing at each other. A prosecution witness acknowledged that it looked like Lott was trying to start a fight with the defendant. Bunting, who was trying to encourage the fight, asked Lott whether he was “going to let him [defendant Dorsey] talk to you like that?” At that point, Lott struck the defendant in the face with his fist. The defendant was hit “pretty hard” and fell back against his vehicle. After the defendant was punched, he quickly pulled out a gun, shot Lott once and shot Bunting once. Lott and Bunting were, at most, two or three feet away from the defendant. Lott died from a single gunshot wound to the chest, and Bunting died from a single gunshot wound to the abdomen. After the shootings, the defendant jumped into his vehicle and drove away. Although a jury convicted Dorsey of second degree murder, the Florida courts overturned that verdict and said the manslaughter was the appropriate charge: > [@](#): > > Florida courts have held that an impulsive overreaction to an attack or injury is itself insufficient to prove ill will, hatred, spite, or evil intent. See, e.g., Light v. State, 841 So. 2d 623, 626 (Fla. 2d DCA 2003); McDaniel v. State, 620 So. 2d 1308 (Fla. 4th DCA 1993). “Although exceptions exist, the crime of second-degree murder is normally committed by a person who knows the victim and has had time to develop a level of enmity toward the victim.” Light, 841 So. 2d at 626. Moreover, “[h]atred, spite, evil intent, or ill will usually require more than an instant to develop.” Id. > > While the jury may reasonably reject the theory of self-defense in a case involving a defendant’s impulsive overreaction to a victim’s attack, such a case warrants a conviction for manslaughter, not second degree murder. See Poole v. State, 30 So. 3d 696, 698-99 (Fla. 2d DCA 2010) (where defendant stabbed the unarmed victim once after the victim had lunged at him in a confined R.V., the evidence showed an impulsive overreaction to an attack, warranting a conviction for manslaughter but not second degree murder); Bellamy v. State, 977 So. 2d 682, 684 (Fla. 2d DCA 2008) (reversing convictions for second degree murder and attempted second degree murder where defendant stabbed victims after he was pushed to the ground and someone stepped on his neck at a nightclub); Rayl v. State, 765 So. 2d 917, 919-20 (Fla. 2d DCA 2000) (prosecution failed to establish that the defendant acted with depraved mind where the victim stormed into the defendant’s place of business threatening to kill the defendant, the defendant shot the victim twice, and the victim had come toward the defendant before each shot; the fact that the defendant was standing with his arms folded when officers arrived was insufficient to prove ill will); McDaniel, 620 So. 2d at 1308 (prosecution failed to prove prima facie case of second degree murder where evidence showed that the victim initiated altercation with the defendant by hitting him in the mouth and knocking him to the ground; although defendant’s use of knife to ward off further attack may have been excessive, thereby negating a finding of self-defense, his acts did not evince depraved mind; no evidence was presented that defendant acted out of ill will, hatred, spite, or an evil intent). This language and these facts affirm my earlier analysis. This case cannot (on the known facts) be second degree murder. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8885 "2012-12-07T03:28:18Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > Cite that they spoke out **against** him. > [I think](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15699525&postcount=7568) you are falsely assuming this from some experts stating that this isn’t a SYG case. By which they mean it is a simple self defense case. > > Oh wait, look here, you already did admit this was the case. What? ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8886 "2012-12-07T03:29:35Z")
[quote=“hmarvin, post:8878, topic:619125”] > [@Magiver](#): > > That’s not what the evidence shows. Zimmerman is still on the sidewalk when the confrontation starts.[/QUOT > > The amazing thing is that 4 minutes after Trayvon ran or walked or whatever, he was still at the T. Could he have possibly been hiding? Possibly? A little bit? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8887 "2012-12-07T03:45:05Z")
[quote=“betenoire39, post:8886, topic:619125”] > [@hmarvin](#): > > Could he have possibly been hiding? > > Possibly? > > A little bit? yes he could have been hiding but not at the intersection of the T which is out in the open. Zimmerman is at the T. Martin is not and then he is. Martin has to approach Zimmerman for this to happen. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8888 "2012-12-07T03:53:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Although a jury convicted Dorsey of second degree murder, the Florida courts overturned that verdict and said the manslaughter was the appropriate charge: > > This language and these facts affirm my earlier analysis. This case cannot (on the known facts) be second degree murder. Fair enough, Bricker. I will remind you that there might be additional evidence. Some people are pretending that they know definitively that there isn’t. For instance, the Medical Examiner might have seen something that a lay person reading the autopsy might not pick up. A ballistics expert can tell us more about who was standing or sitting where when the shot was fired. I have the feeling (again this is speculation–this is a speculation thread afterall :rolleyes:) that the ME is going to have something interesting to say. I brought up Martin’s edema and brain injuries and was shot down by the chorus. I personally don’t think all of his brain injuries were cased by the gunshot. I believe the ballistics expert is going to shed further light on this as well. Again, my personal opinions. Shoot away chorus… ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8889 "2012-12-07T04:20:50Z")
[quote=“Magiver, post:8887, topic:619125”] > [@betenoire39](#): > > yes he could have been hiding but not at the intersection of the T which is out in the open. Zimmerman is at the T. Martin is not and then he is. Martin has to approach Zimmerman for this to happen. Zimmerman’s only functioning and lit flashlight was still at the T. Hard to believe he’d be walking around without it. As I pointed out earlier, Z was banging the non functional one on something, heard on the 911 call, and thus not moving. This is how the SPD must have worked things out, and couldn’t arrest Zimmerman. They couldn’t prove Zimmerman was following Martin after the dispatcher suggested he not do that. But they could prove he as standing in one place afterward. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8890 "2012-12-07T04:46:19Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > What? Simple, neither Dennis Baxley nor anyone else connected to creating the Florida SYG has spoken out against Zimmerman. They have said this is simple self defense and not SYG, but no where have I seen it written that they think Zimmerman is guilty of murder. If I am wrong I expect you will correct me with some facts. ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8891 "2012-12-07T05:38:12Z")
Haven’t been here in a while. Has everybody agreed that Zimmerman is not guilty yet- or are there still some stubborn holdouts? I just got out of jail. Beat the hell out of some black guy who was following me. ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8892 "2012-12-07T05:55:30Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > Really? > > Seems like you’re a little late to the game… > > Common practice. No one wants to go to trial–if that can be avoided, then all pains are usually taken to avoid it. > > Of course waiting games are played. **Bricker** can chime in more since he would know oodles more as a former defense attorney. > > The prosecution is definitely wondering why he hasn’t given up by now. The problem here is that you have a very stubborn defendant–very stubborn. > > I wouldn’t be surprised if O’Mara has (privately of course) been asking him to take a plea. > > You never want to roll the dice in court especially with a client like that–he has already opened up his mouth too much. You never know what a guy like this will say. He has already lied to the court. And a jury might reach a decision that he might not like…You just don’t know how these things will play out in court. > > I wouldn’t allow him (if I were his lawyer) to open his mouth up anymore and say something that may incriminate him further. > > Bottom line, if he takes a plea, he’s out in his late 30s, probably. Better to take that than risk not getting out until at least his early 50s. There is a snowball’s chance in hell he will be in prison until his early 50’s. I would be shocked if O’Mara would even entertain the idea of a plea. Let me make this simple. There will be no plea. Period. The prosecution will never offer anything that the defense would ever accept, and vice versa. It’s not going to happen. Nor should it. He did nothing wrong. This whole thing is contrived from misinformation and distortion. But I agree.. the prosecution is hoping.. PRAYING.. that they can make Zimmerman’s life miserable enough that he’ll accept a plea. He won’t though. I’m sure O’Mara is quite glad to have Zimmerman as a client. How often do defense attorneys get to defend against angry mobs someone that is actually innocent. I know exactly how it won’t play out in court: Zimmerman being found guilty of anything beyond manslaughter. My bets are that he wins immunity. If the justice system in Florida has any credibility whatsoever, that’s what should happen. The ONLY thing this case has going for it is the contrived, public “outrage”. Take that away and this case would have been tossed a LONG time ago. Informed, legal experts know this prosecution was brought by “popular demand”, and not on the merits of the case. Period. End of story. Take that to the bank. This prosecution is an embarrassment to justice, on par with Duke Lacrosse or Tawana Brawley, but worse, because no one has put a stop to it. That will be Judge Nelson’s job to do. I’ve heard she is tough- she will have to ignore the BS from the masses when she does it. Zimmerman isn’t “stubborn”, he’s right. ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8893 "2012-12-07T06:13:14Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > I will remind you that there might be additional evidence. Some people are pretending that they know definitively that there isn’t. > > For instance, the Medical Examiner might have seen something that a lay person reading the autopsy might not pick up. > > A ballistics expert can tell us more about who was standing or sitting where when the shot was fired. > > I have the feeling (again this is speculation–this is a speculation thread afterall :rolleyes:) that the ME is going to have something interesting to say. > > I brought up Martin’s edema and brain injuries and was shot down by the chorus. I personally don’t think all of his brain injuries were cased by the gunshot. > > I believe the ballistics expert is going to shed further light on this as well. > > Again, my personal opinions. > > Shoot away chorus… This sounds more like a wish list than a list of reasonable expectations. I suspect that many medical examiners have scanned the autopsy of Trayvon for fun, and if there were some hieroglyphic “bombshell” in there we’d know about it. You will see the usual suspects continue to make mountains of the molehills that routinely occur in a complex set of events like these. The media will help that along. In the end, let us hope rationality and perspective prevail. Like Zimmerman, I would love nothing more than there to be a videotape of the entire event. You want to know who doesn’t? The prosecution, Crump, and Trayvon’s parents. Like the lead investigator said, it’s possible that some portion of the event may have been recorded on Trayvon’s phone. They refuse to give up the PIN to that phone. They know nothing good could possibly be on it. From their perspective, the less information that is known to the public the better. That’s also obviously why the prosecution stonewalled on that picture of George Zimmerman’s broken nose. Funny how it took.. February, March, April, May, June, July, August, September and almost all of October for them to get an incredibly important picture released? First they tried to release a blurry, out-of-focus, absolutely useless facsimile of it. Think that was accidental? I don’t. I no longer give them the benefit of the doubt. That was clearly intentional. They absolutely knew the impact that photo would have. Just as they are stonewalling about Dee Dee’s recordings, and many other things I’m sure. Accountability. I’m looking forward to accountability for the attorneys involved in this case, as well as the journalists, and other public figures. I’ve never seen something like this before, and I’d love to not ever see something like this happen again. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8894 "2012-12-07T06:31:46Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > If I am wrong I expect you will correct me with some facts. Sure: [Link](http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/03/21/trayvon-martins-alleged-attacker-not-covered-under-law-wrote/) [Link](http://www.npr.org/2012/03/26/149404276/op-ed-why-i-wrote-stand-your-ground-law) In the FOX piece, this is important: \* "Quite simply the castle doctrine is a good law which now protects individuals in a majority of states. However, the castle doctrine does not provide protection to individuals who seek to pursue and confront others, as is allegedly the case in the Trayvon Martin tragedy in Sanford. The information that has been publicly reported concerning Trayvon Martin’s death indicates that the **castle doctrine may not be applicable to justify the actions of the attacker, Mr. Zimmerman…** Mr. Zimmerman’s unnecessary pursuit and confrontation of Trayvon Martin elevated the prospect of a violent episode and **does not seem to be an act of self-defense as defined by the castle doctrine. There is no protection in the “Stand Your Ground” law for anyone who pursues and confronts people**."\* (Baxley used castle doctrine and SYG interchangably). In the NPR piece: “That’s an excellent question, and, in fact, **there is proportionality.** This bill talks about meeting force with force. **It doesn’t say automatically use, you know, force that requires the death of the other person or lethal force.** It says you’re allowed to meet force with force, including, if necessary, the lethal force to stop the attack. And so there is a discussion about that acceleration. That is not the same as a duty to retreat, but it means, you know, to me, force with force means that if you’re yelling at me, I can yell back. If you’re pumping me on the chest, I can pump you on the chest. But if you got your hands around my neck to choke me to death, then I can stop that lethal attack.” Doesn’t sound like words of support for Zimmerman. ---
**Author:** ![betenoire39](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@betenoire39](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoire39)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8895 "2012-12-07T06:36:59Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > Haven’t been here in a while. Has everybody agreed that Zimmerman is not guilty yet- or are there still some stubborn holdouts? I just got out of jail. **Beat the hell out of some black guy who was following me**. > [@emeraldia](#): > > Informed, legal experts know this prosecution was brought by “popular demand”, and not on the merits of the case. Period. End of story. Take that to the bank. This prosecution is an embarrassment to justice, on par with **Duke Lacrosse or Tawana Brawley** , but worse, because no one has put a stop to it. That will be Judge Nelson’s job to do. I’ve heard she is tough- she will have to ignore the BS from the masses when she does it. > Zimmerman isn’t “stubborn”, he’s right. WTF??? ---
**Author:** ![Redbrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Redbrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redbrow)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8896 "2012-12-07T06:57:14Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > I wouldn’t be surprised if O’Mara has (privately of course) been asking him to take a plea. Really? Does [this](http://www.hlntv.com/article/2012/12/06/zimmermans-attorney-we-will-not-take-plea-deal) surprise you then? > [@](#): > > \*\*Zimmerman’s attorney: We will not take a plea deal > \*\* > George Zimmerman’s attorney, Mark O’Mara, says his client will not accept a plea deal to avoid going to trial on a murder charge in the death of Trayvon Martin. > > On Thursday, O’Mara told In Session correspondent Jean Casarez that he would not allow his client to accept a plea deal. “I wouldn’t plea someone who is innocent. So I think the answer is pretty easily no,” said O’Mara. ---
**Author:** ![Saraya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Saraya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saraya)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8897 "2012-12-07T11:15:18Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > WTF??? Are you unsure what they’re saying, or you annoyed that someone dare mock the race aspect of this fiasco? It’s one thing that this case has been born out of popular demand and turned into almost as much of a media circus as the OJ trial. It’s however entirely another that it sets a new precedent for legal lows. The amount of poor decorum and professionalism is astounding. ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8898 "2012-12-07T12:58:21Z")
> [@Redbrow](#): > > Really? > > Does [this](http://www.hlntv.com/article/2012/12/06/zimmermans-attorney-we-will-not-take-plea-deal) surprise you then? Timely find. ---
**Author:** ![emeraldia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c2a13f/32.png) [@emeraldia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emeraldia)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8899 "2012-12-07T13:26:58Z")
> [@betenoire39](#): > > WTF??? What’s the problem? A creepy black man was trying to keep an eye on me. He got out of his vehicle to see which way I went, which conferred to me the legal right to pummel and bash him beyond submission. Yeah, he was screaming and yelling for help, but I would have none of it. I just kept right on battering and beating him. He tried to get away, but I held him down. Some other black guy even stepped out and told me to stop or he’d call the police. I ignored him and he went back inside. That’s just how I roll. They don’t call me No Limit Cracka for nothing. That’ll teach him to treat me like I’m the type of person that might be prone to criminal acts. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8900 "2012-12-07T16:06:37Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > What’s the problem? A creepy black man was trying to keep an eye on me. He got out of his vehicle to see which way I went, which conferred to me the legal right to pummel and bash him beyond submission. Yeah, he was screaming and yelling for help, but I would have none of it. I just kept right on battering and beating him. He tried to get away, but I held him down. Some other black guy even stepped out and told me to stop or he’d call the police. I ignored him and he went back inside. That’s just how I roll. They don’t call me No Limit Cracka for nothing. That’ll teach him to treat me like I’m the type of person that might be prone to criminal acts. I had a similar experience I’d like to share with you. I had just gotten out of church, where I spent my day like I spend all my days, praying for hope and peace for all mankind. It was late and dark and raining, but I was full of love for humanity as I walked home to take care of my sick Nana, when a scary man started following me in his van. “Oh, this must be the neighborhood watchman” I thought, as I skipped over to his van to assure him that I was just on my way home. To my utter surprise he pulled me into his van and raped and murdered me. “Oh my” I thought just before he caved in my skull, dismembered my corpse, and buried it in the woods “I hadn’t realized that creepy people who follow you late at night might not all be nice!” The worst part was, I knew people were all around; I could hear their dog whistles. But none of them helped. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8901 "2012-12-07T16:39:28Z")
> [@emeraldia](#): > > There is a snowball’s chance in hell he will be in prison until his early 50’s. I remember people saying the same thing about him being arrested. But he was arrested. The same people then shifted gears and expressed confidence that the charges would be dropped before long. But the charges have stayed. Predictably, now the same crowd is insisting–despite the utter wrongness of their previous predictions–that there is no way he’s going to be convicted. Aren’t yall getting tired of being proven wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/8902 "2012-12-07T17:34:33Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I remember people saying the same thing about him being arrested. But he was arrested. > > The same people then shifted gears and expressed confidence that the charges would be dropped before long. But the charges have stayed. > > Predictably, now the same crowd is insisting–despite the utter wrongness of their previous predictions–that there is no way he’s going to be convicted. > > Aren’t yall getting tired of being proven wrong? We’ve not been proven wrong about anything yet, and unless the prosecution has been illegally lying about the extent of evidence against Zimmerman, we can’t be. There is no evidence that he’s guilty of murder. If you can prove me wrong, do as you’ve been asked numerous times, and show the evidence. I’ll not hold my breath, as every time that’s been asked of someone, they’ve either ignored it, or replied with speculation and irrelevancies. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=444) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=446)